Iraq army

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Mannet
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Iraq army

#1

Post by Mannet » 30 Jul 2020, 10:20

are there any photos of Iraq army from time when they were on Axis site? what kind of equipment did they use?

ZerehKoob
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Re: Iraq army

#2

Post by ZerehKoob » 17 Nov 2020, 18:02

Hi,

Iraq didn`t exist then as an independent nation. It was a British Protectorate, so it was ruled and guarded be British, so it was not part of Axis.

You also might refer to Iran, Iran also was not Part of Axis.

Iraqi Militia used British warfare, rilfes, trucks and ...

Imperial Iranian Army used moslty Czeck built Rifles and Tanks.


zaptiè
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Re: Iraq army

#3

Post by zaptiè » 20 Nov 2020, 10:49

Irak was not formaly an axis partner, but combat against British with help of Italian and german air force elements.

Peter89
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Re: Iraq army

#4

Post by Peter89 » 27 Nov 2020, 08:57

Mannet wrote:
30 Jul 2020, 10:20
are there any photos of Iraq army from time when they were on Axis site? what kind of equipment did they use?
The Iraqi Army in 1941 consisted of 4 Infantry divisions and an Independent Mechanized Brigade with some 60,000 men. The 1st and 3rd Divisions were stationed around Baghdad, the 2nd at Kirkuk and the 4th in Diwaniya.

In theory, each division consisted 3 infantry brigades, 2 field artillery brigades, a mountain artillery brigade and a divisional cavarly squadron. (Due to many factors, it wasn't the case.) Again in theory, each infantry brigades consisted 3 battalions. The theoretical battalions sported 26 officiers and 820 ranks, with 46 Bren LMGs and 8 Vickers MGs (in two heavy MG platoons with 4Vickers each). There were also 4 Lewis AA guns.

In reality, the 1st Division had only two brigades, lacked a field artillery brigade and lent its mountain artillery brigade to the 4th Division.

The 2nd and 3rd Divisions were approximately up to strength, but the 4th Division was a mess. It had only one more or less combat ready brigade and a mountain artillery battery with 2.75inch guns, with no field artillery brigades. The other two infantry brigades were of second line personnel, lacked equipment, etc.

The Independent Mechanized Brigade consisted of a Fiat tank company, 14 Crossley armoured cars, two mechanized infantry battalions, a mechanized machine gun company (mechanized = llorried) and a mechanized artillery brigade.

The Iraqi Air Force had 116 planes (of which 57 was combat ready) in 6 squadrons plus the flight school. The 1st and the 2nd were at Mosul, the 4th-7th in Rashid. The equipment was obsolete.
1Sqn: Hawker Nisr 9pcs
2Sqn: Vincent, Dragon, Dragonfly 7pcs
4Sqn: Gladiator 7pcs
5Sqn: Breda 65 4pcs
6Sqn: Savoia 79 4pcs
7Sqn: Northrop 8A 5pcs

The school used Tiger Moths (12 pcs).
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

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Waleed Y. Majeed
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Location: Aarhus, Denmark

Re: Iraq army

#5

Post by Waleed Y. Majeed » 27 Nov 2020, 11:20

The Iraq Levies might be of some interest.
http://assyrianlevies.info/battle---habbaniya.html

Waleed

Peter89
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Location: Europe

Re: Iraq army

#6

Post by Peter89 » 27 Nov 2020, 12:08

ZerehKoob wrote:
17 Nov 2020, 18:02
Hi,

Iraq didn`t exist then as an independent nation. It was a British Protectorate, so it was ruled and guarded be British, so it was not part of Axis.

You also might refer to Iran, Iran also was not Part of Axis.

Iraqi Militia used British warfare, rilfes, trucks and ...

Imperial Iranian Army used moslty Czeck built Rifles and Tanks.
zaptiè wrote:
20 Nov 2020, 10:49
Irak was not formaly an axis partner, but combat against British with help of Italian and german air force elements.
What actually connected Iraq and Iran in 1941 was the British who invaded both countries in the spring / summer of 1941 and both countries offered minimal resistance.

Other than that, the two were not even comprable. Iraq had a population about 4m, Iran about 16m. The Iraqis fielded 4 divisions of various combat value and a mechanized brigade, about 60,000 men in total (but the more I study the subject, I think the actual, combat-capable number was significantly lower). The Irani Armed Forces fielded 16 light divisions (equivalent of 9 divisions) with 126,000 men; (equipped with 507,587 rifles, 8158 machine guns - mostly modern types - and 874 artillery pieces, of which about 350 were modern). They also possessed some 200 tanks and 100 non-tank AFVs, an equivalent of about an armored division, but these units were never really used in a modern way. Iran also possessed 122 obsolete combat aircraft (Audax, Hind and Fury), 40 of these were combat ready when the Anglo-Soviet invasion of Iran commenced in August 1941. They also had about 160 other purpose aircrafts.
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

ZerehKoob
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Location: Iran, Tehran

Re: Iraq army

#7

Post by ZerehKoob » 29 Nov 2020, 18:22

Peter89 wrote:
27 Nov 2020, 12:08
1- What actually connected Iraq and Iran in 1941 was the British who invaded both countries in the spring / summer of 1941 and both countries offered minimal resistance.

2- The Irani Armed Forces

3- fielded 16 light divisions (equivalent of 9 divisions) with 126,000 men; (equipped with 507,587 rifles, 8158 machine guns - mostly modern types - and 874 artillery pieces, of which about 350 were modern). They also possessed some 200 tanks and 100 non-tank AFVs, an equivalent of about an armored division, but these units were never really used in a modern way. Iran also possessed 122 obsolete combat aircraft (Audax, Hind and Fury), 40 of these were combat ready when the Anglo-Soviet invasion of Iran commenced in August 1941. They also had about 160 other purpose aircrafts.
Szia, Peter

1- I do not know about Iraq, but we had our own reasons to stop fighting, we were not (and still, are not) able to defend against an all-out offensive by most powerful armies ever existed (comprised to Imperial Iranian Army), our soldiers were not trained for war against a powerful, well trained and well equipped enemies like Soviets or British (it is same, even today). we could not let all of our soldiers to die for nothing! (heroism and patriotism are great ideas, but we did not let these ideas to cost more than expected loss of manpower and equipment.) We did what was our best option at that moment. same goes for Iranian Army actions at early stages of Iran/Iraq war of 1980-88. I respect anyone who was there, regardless her/his nationality, rank, ideologies and whatever else, may souls of all those who died, rest in eternal peace.

2-Correct term is "Imperial Iranian Army", not Armed Forces. The border guard (Marzbani in Persian) was a branch within the Gendarmerie, which itself was part of Ground Forces (Nirooye Zamini) of Imperial Iranian Army then.

3- Most of these so called "Divisions" were actually Regiments, being just slowly modernized and reorganized.

4- you forgot the Iranian navy!!! which lost more than half of its manpower and Equipment.

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Leo Niehorster
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Re: Iraq army

#8

Post by Leo Niehorster » 30 Nov 2020, 09:59

Hi Zereh,
Would appreciate more information about the ground forces, such as division ID number, where stationed, (corps headquarters?), organization, etc.
What about the Gendarmerie?
Ooh, I cud go on and on ...

--
Leo
Information not passed on is lost.
URL: World War II Armed Forces

Peter89
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Location: Europe

Re: Iraq army

#9

Post by Peter89 » 30 Nov 2020, 14:37

ZerehKoob wrote:
29 Nov 2020, 18:22
Peter89 wrote:
27 Nov 2020, 12:08
1- What actually connected Iraq and Iran in 1941 was the British who invaded both countries in the spring / summer of 1941 and both countries offered minimal resistance.

2- The Irani Armed Forces

3- fielded 16 light divisions (equivalent of 9 divisions) with 126,000 men; (equipped with 507,587 rifles, 8158 machine guns - mostly modern types - and 874 artillery pieces, of which about 350 were modern). They also possessed some 200 tanks and 100 non-tank AFVs, an equivalent of about an armored division, but these units were never really used in a modern way. Iran also possessed 122 obsolete combat aircraft (Audax, Hind and Fury), 40 of these were combat ready when the Anglo-Soviet invasion of Iran commenced in August 1941. They also had about 160 other purpose aircrafts.
Szia, Peter

1- I do not know about Iraq, but we had our own reasons to stop fighting, we were not (and still, are not) able to defend against an all-out offensive by most powerful armies ever existed (comprised to Imperial Iranian Army), our soldiers were not trained for war against a powerful, well trained and well equipped enemies like Soviets or British (it is same, even today). we could not let all of our soldiers to die for nothing! (heroism and patriotism are great ideas, but we did not let these ideas to cost more than expected loss of manpower and equipment.) We did what was our best option at that moment. same goes for Iranian Army actions at early stages of Iran/Iraq war of 1980-88. I respect anyone who was there, regardless her/his nationality, rank, ideologies and whatever else, may souls of all those who died, rest in eternal peace.

2-Correct term is "Imperial Iranian Army", not Armed Forces. The border guard (Marzbani in Persian) was a branch within the Gendarmerie, which itself was part of Ground Forces (Nirooye Zamini) of Imperial Iranian Army then.

3- Most of these so called "Divisions" were actually Regiments, being just slowly modernized and reorganized.

4- you forgot the Iranian navy!!! which lost more than half of its manpower and Equipment.
Hello Zereh Koob,

1. Indeed, I never said that it would make sense to resist further. I deeply dislike the joint British-Soviet(-American) occupation of Iran when it was made clear that the Shah would not join either side. Yet in my opinion, it was to be expected; couldn't the Shah realize this before the guns started to roar?

2. Thank you for the corrections!

3. Really? Could you please provide some solid data on that? I can only work from secondary sources, and the only guy who was proficient in oriental languages on my other forum stopped posting about a year ago. It would be wise to triple check a few facts around the ME, because a lot of sources seem to use authorized strengths instead of actual combat strengths and numbers that never existed in reality.

4. Yes, yes. I just thought I'll leave them out because they did not play a big part in the defense.
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

ZerehKoob
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Posts: 27
Joined: 13 Nov 2020, 22:53
Location: Iran, Tehran

Re: Iraq army

#10

Post by ZerehKoob » 03 Dec 2020, 23:10

Leo Niehorster wrote:
30 Nov 2020, 09:59
Hi Zereh,
Would appreciate more information about the ground forces, such as division ID number, where stationed, (corps headquarters?), organization, etc.
What about the Gendarmerie?
Ooh, I cud go on and on ...

--
Leo
Hello dear Leo,

I will send them in a Topic. just in short, 1st and 2nd Infantry Divisions, were stationed at Tehran, and had most of modern equipment, in addition, an entire artilery group (= Division), an independent Armored Brigade, 2 independent Cavalry regiments, and lots of 2nd line, Support and reserve troops were stationed at Tehran, roughly in terms of manpower, we can count them as a Corps (~ 80000 men)

ZerehKoob
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Posts: 27
Joined: 13 Nov 2020, 22:53
Location: Iran, Tehran

Re: Iraq army

#11

Post by ZerehKoob » 04 Dec 2020, 00:07

Peter89 wrote:
30 Nov 2020, 14:37

Hello Zereh Koob,

1. Indeed, I never said that it would make sense to resist further. I deeply dislike the joint British-Soviet(-American) occupation of Iran when it was made clear that the Shah would not join either side. Yet in my opinion, it was to be expected; couldn't the Shah realize this before the guns started to roar?

2. Thank you for the corrections!

3. Really? Could you please provide some solid data on that? I can only work from secondary sources, and the only guy who was proficient in oriental languages on my other forum stopped posting about a year ago. It would be wise to triple check a few facts around the ME, because a lot of sources seem to use authorized strengths instead of actual combat strengths and numbers that never existed in reality.

4. Yes, yes. I just thought I'll leave them out because they did not play a big part in the defense.
Hello Peter.

1- Unfortunately, here in Iran the regime humiliates Army for such things, why they didn't resist against an all-out invasion? or the army was an parade army, not a battle-hardened one! more generally, after 1979 events (call it whatever you want), army was completely wiped out and removed from Social Media, TV, Radio, Films and Serials, Interviews, anything, plus that, a great part of Army (as well as other organizations) Archives were destroyed or stolen. That`s why there in much RELIABLE info Iran Army in General. on the other hand and about Shah, he was trying to make Iran like Swiss, but he forgot we have several factors which Swiss doesn't, one, there was no "Axis" troops around Iran. two, we were much nearer and safer than Swiss for Helping USSR, three, we have access to "Warm Waters", something that Swiss or even USSR, haven't. However the Shah isn`t alive to answer this, personally.

2- My pleasure, we are here to learn new things and share our own knowledges. it would be a great idea to open some topics for "lesser known / spoken" countries of World Wars and see what they have in their inventory. Movies, Games, Books, etc. ...

3- Yes, I will do this and some other ones from Tomorrow, or Saturday. Just doing last translations and edits. about strength and manpower, your numbers were close to reality and what was planned to be in few years, in other word, it was correct on paper. but it took longer than what was expected and totally stopped by the Invasion. we, Persians, love exaggeration and that`s a part of our culture, you will see more and more, if look in books written about Iran / Iraq war, especially those written by IRGC / Basij authors.

4- Thats right, but paid highest price, 600 - 700 sailors were killed at Khorramshahr, only, including Commander of Imperial Iranian navy, Rear Admiral Bayandor, himself. many were taken captive, fled, wounded or missed.

ZerehKoob
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Posts: 27
Joined: 13 Nov 2020, 22:53
Location: Iran, Tehran

Re: Iraq army

#12

Post by ZerehKoob » 04 Dec 2020, 00:09

Waleed Y. Majeed wrote:
27 Nov 2020, 11:20
The Iraq Levies might be of some interest.
http://assyrianlevies.info/battle---habbaniya.html

Waleed
Hello dear Waleed,

that was great. please if know more or have some other links, share them too.

Peter89
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Posts: 2369
Joined: 28 Aug 2018, 06:52
Location: Europe

Re: Iraq army

#13

Post by Peter89 » 04 Dec 2020, 08:46

ZerehKoob wrote:
04 Dec 2020, 00:07
Peter89 wrote:
30 Nov 2020, 14:37

Hello Zereh Koob,

1. Indeed, I never said that it would make sense to resist further. I deeply dislike the joint British-Soviet(-American) occupation of Iran when it was made clear that the Shah would not join either side. Yet in my opinion, it was to be expected; couldn't the Shah realize this before the guns started to roar?

2. Thank you for the corrections!

3. Really? Could you please provide some solid data on that? I can only work from secondary sources, and the only guy who was proficient in oriental languages on my other forum stopped posting about a year ago. It would be wise to triple check a few facts around the ME, because a lot of sources seem to use authorized strengths instead of actual combat strengths and numbers that never existed in reality.

4. Yes, yes. I just thought I'll leave them out because they did not play a big part in the defense.
Hello Peter.

1- Unfortunately, here in Iran the regime humiliates Army for such things, why they didn't resist against an all-out invasion? or the army was an parade army, not a battle-hardened one! more generally, after 1979 events (call it whatever you want), army was completely wiped out and removed from Social Media, TV, Radio, Films and Serials, Interviews, anything, plus that, a great part of Army (as well as other organizations) Archives were destroyed or stolen. That`s why there in much RELIABLE info Iran Army in General. on the other hand and about Shah, he was trying to make Iran like Swiss, but he forgot we have several factors which Swiss doesn't, one, there was no "Axis" troops around Iran. two, we were much nearer and safer than Swiss for Helping USSR, three, we have access to "Warm Waters", something that Swiss or even USSR, haven't. However the Shah isn`t alive to answer this, personally.

2- My pleasure, we are here to learn new things and share our own knowledges. it would be a great idea to open some topics for "lesser known / spoken" countries of World Wars and see what they have in their inventory. Movies, Games, Books, etc. ...

3- Yes, I will do this and some other ones from Tomorrow, or Saturday. Just doing last translations and edits. about strength and manpower, your numbers were close to reality and what was planned to be in few years, in other word, it was correct on paper. but it took longer than what was expected and totally stopped by the Invasion. we, Persians, love exaggeration and that`s a part of our culture, you will see more and more, if look in books written about Iran / Iraq war, especially those written by IRGC / Basij authors.

4- Thats right, but paid highest price, 600 - 700 sailors were killed at Khorramshahr, only, including Commander of Imperial Iranian navy, Rear Admiral Bayandor, himself. many were taken captive, fled, wounded or missed.
You seem to have a wide knowledge about Iran's military history. Did you read Kaveh Farrokh's Iran at War? What do you think about his research?
https://www.kavehfarrokh.com/military-h ... 1921-1941/

For the 1941 Iraqi campaign, I warmly recommend you to read Robert Lyman's Iraq 1941 https://robertlyman.com/book/iraq-1941/

and Playfair's classic The Mediterranean and Middle East
Volume II. https://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/UN/UK/ ... index.html
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

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