General Avramescu Case - a hot current topic in Romania

mabadesc · Post by **mabadesc** » 22 Nov 2002 18:38

I'd like to start a thread on General Avramescu as there is still a lot of mistery in the circumstances in which he disappeared.
Why was he executed by Malinovsky after being praised by him repeatedly? What we do know, from a personal hand-written note written by the general to his wife, is that he was being appointed as Secretary of Defense in the new Romanian government. At the time, he and most of his family were on the front line near Tisovec/Luczenec, in Czechoslovakia. Upon hearing about his new appointment, he sent his family home under a Romanian/Russian escort and was due to travel to Bucharest himself shortly. The end result: on their way home, his wife was invited to have "tea" with Malinovsky and to receive his congratulations. She was imprisoned and sent to Siberia, one of her daughters ended up dead (suicide or executed), and the general's grand-children (6-year old girl, 7-year old girl, 8-months old boy), were taken hostage and retained until after the war ended.

Please post any information you may have about the general, including anecdotes, from any time during the war. There is more and more information coming out, but it is very decentralized and not all of it is accurate.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 22 Nov 2002 21:35

You may want to look here:
http://www.thirdreichforum.com/phpBB2/v ... php?t=7625

PS: I do not think it is a "hot current topic" in Romania. At least it is not on TV!

mabadesc · Post by **mabadesc** » 22 Nov 2002 21:46

Victor,

By "hot" topic I don't mean national news.....obviously. I mean articles and interviews in historical magazines. And, considering that since 1990 there have been 3 statues built in his honor, 2 train stations and about 5 streets named after him, I would say it has gotten attention in historical circles. By the way, his remains were finally found about 2 years ago and brought to Oradea (or Cluj, I forget), in a large military procession that was actually televised.

But enough about this....I really don't care if you consider it a hot topic or not. I posted the message to get some info. Thanks for the link, I had actually already read it, but it's very brief and has some false statements. For instance, the notion that he was engaged in secret talks with the Germans is plain out false.

Thanks anyway. More information?

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 22 Nov 2002 22:12

mabadesc wrote:By the way, his remains were finally found about 2 years ago and brought to Oradea (or Cluj, I forget), in a large military procession that was actually televised.

It was at Cluj.

mabadesc wrote:But enough about this....I really don't care if you consider it a hot topic or not. I posted the message to get some info.

No need to get nervous. It is just a discussion.

mabadesc wrote:I had actually already read it, but it's very brief and has some false statements. For instance, the notion that he was engaged in secret talks with the Germans is plain out false.

Please read carrefully and then come lecture me. If you would look more closely you will see that I said "the Soviets suspected him". I never said it was something sure.

Please tell me which are the other false statements?

mabadesc · Post by **mabadesc** » 22 Nov 2002 22:51

Ok, we started off on the wrong foot. Let's start over in a positive, constructive way. Getting into an argument will just get us off the subject. You acknowledged some of my points, and I acknowledge some of your points. You are correct in quoting that "the Soviets suspected him". Obviously, something threatened them, since they killed him. But could it have been the fact that he had been appointed as Minister of Defense and the Soviets wanted to appoint their own man? I don't know the answers. I respect your opinion and I'm hoping you may have some ideas.

But I'm sincerely trying to get more details on his disappearance. You seem very informed, maybe you can help me or direct me to a person who specializes in that specific area.

What I'm trying to understand is why a competent, apolitical general, highly decorated both by Germans and Soviets ended up executed in secret by the NKVD after being praised by Malinovsky not only as an ally, but also for showing compassion and feeding the people of Sevastopol after the city was occupied. In addition, half of his family ended up dead or in Siberia.

Suggestions? Help? Any theories you may have?

Thanks.

Mihai.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 23 Nov 2002 10:29

The state of the Romanian armies in the spring of 1945 was miserable. This was mainly the result of poor supply. Some will say that this was the fault of the Romanian bureaucrats (Ovidius

), but it was mostly because the new allies were using the Romanian supply system for their own needs. Most of the Romanian products were sent to the Red Army units etc, etc. General Gheorghe Avramescu protested vehemently on many occasions. Of course that marshal Rodion Malinovsky dismissed the facts as "the result of the sabotage of the officers of the old regime". After the Soviet command allowed 200 wagons of food to be delivered to the 4th Army, Avramescu continued to protest, especially because most of the Romanian units were under strength and were receiving missions beyond their possibilities.

On 2 March 1945 he and general Nicolae Dragomir were summoned to the command of the Soviet 40th Army in the Slovak town of Divin, to present the situation of the 4th Romanian Army. After an hour the officers that came with them were communicated that Avramescu and Dragomir left with general Filip Fedorovich Jmachenko to the command of the 2nd Ukrainian Front, where they were summoned by Malinovsky. At 20:30 the chief Soviet liaison officer to the 4th Army communicated that general Dascalescu was the new CO. On 5 March Dacalescu sent an official letter to Jmachenko, asking him when did Avramescu and Dragomir left to Bucharest (as he was told initially) and when are they going to retun. Four days later, Jmachenko visited the command post of the 4th Army. Again Dascalescu asked where are the two generals. The only answer he could get was a recommendation to ask the Ministry of Defense of the Romanian General Staff.

On 3 March 1945 his wife (Adela) and his daughter (Felicia) were arrested and sent to Siberia, as already mentioned. His daughter killed herself on 6 March. His wife returned to Romania in 1956. She asked for a pension to which she was entitled to in the event of the death of her husband. The Romanian authorities addressed the Soviet Supreme Tribunal and found out that general Gheorghe Avramescu died on 3 March 1945 near the town Iasbereni, following an attack of German aircraft. He was buried in Budapest.

General Dragomir returned to Romania in January 1956. He told that he had been separated from general Avramescu from the moment of their arrest.

On 23 October 2000, general Avramescu returned to Romania and was buried in the Military Cemetery in Cluj.

The debate over his supposed intention to defect with his entire army to the German side is still opened. On one side we have to consider his very good military education and experience, which would have told him that the war was already lost and this action would be folly. On the other hand we have several German and Romanian (members of the Iron Guard) testimonies of this planned action. As col. Dutu and Mrs. Dobre say, only the Soviet archives could provide more information.

The Soviets may have had an old grudge on Avramescu for his role in the elimination of Communists in the Chisinau area prior to WWII, when he was the chief of the Intelligence Bureau of the 3rd Corps. But they could have refused to co-operate after 23 August with him as they did with other Romanian officers.

I would also like to add that general Avramescu was the one who initiated the Mountain Corps' Simferopol Canteen for the poor inhabitants of the city, where up to 2000 people were fed in some periods.

Andy H · Post by **Andy H** » 23 Nov 2002 12:03

Are his Wife or Grand-Children still alive to talk too?

mabadesc · Post by **mabadesc** » 23 Nov 2002 16:50

Thank you Victor.

A lot of good information. I didn't even know, for instance, about the Chisinev incident.

The food distribution center that you mention (Cantina Romaneasca) was created and operated by his wife and two daughters.

I re-read your initial biography and you make a very good point which is not well known - that he argued with Mansteinn over who would command the Sevastopol siege. Mansteinn wanted to a German Colonel in command, but after appealing to Antonescu, the Romanian Army had command and were the first troops to enter Sevastopol. You mention that you have a diairy or some communique proving this. Would it be possible to scan it and send it to me please? Also, do you know if the Romanian military archives are open to the public for research?

Andy - his daughter is alive but very ill (she's 86), but there are 4 grand children alive and well in their 50's-60's.

Thanks Victor.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 23 Nov 2002 21:03

Andy H wrote:Are his Wife or Grand-Children still alive to talk too?

Well the wife should have been 100 or something, so I really doubt she is still alive.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 23 Nov 2002 21:17

mabadesc wrote: The food distribution center that you mention (Cantina Romaneasca) was created and operated by his wife and two daughters.

I really doubt that three women can run a canteen which fed 2000 people. You are probably referring to the Red Cross canteen for the orphans in Simferopol, which fed about 30-40 children. The population appealed to the general to allow others to eat there and so he dlegated lt. col. Gheorghe Berdan and cpt. Gheorghe Vitelaru to find a solution. This came from a secret Mountain Corps depot, of which the Germans knew nothing about. Money gathered through some sporting events were donated to the canteen and other food was bought from Odessa.

mabadesc wrote: I re-read your initial biography and you make a very good point which is not well known - that he argued with Mansteinn over who would command the Sevastopol siege. Mansteinn wanted to a German Colonel in command, but after appealing to Antonescu, the Romanian Army had command and were the first troops to enter Sevastopol.

Actually I was reffering to the events in 1941, when both the 1st Mountain Brigade and the 8th Cavalry brigade were subordinated to German corps at some points and the Mountain Corps remained without any troops under its command. Thus he protested and Antonescu interviened and in 1942 this treatment stopped.

The episode about Sevastopol was another thing. Axworthy and Scafes wrongly attribute the clear up of the Balaclava pocket to the 4th Mountain Division of Gheroghe Manoliu.In fact it wa the Mountain Corps that did this. The 4th Mountain Division was among the first Romanian units to enter the city, by violating a directorder to start the attack later. The Germans actually wanted to enter the city alone. Only the energic and unorthodox intervention of Manoliu stopped this.

mabadesc wrote: You mention that you have a diairy or some communique proving this. Would it be possible to scan it and send it to me please? Also, do you know if the Romanian military archives are open to the public for research?

It is the report of gen Manoliu regarding the way he managed to get his troops inside Sevastopol in the same time as the Germans.

Theoretically the archives are opened I believe. Practically I do not know.

Andy H · Post by **Andy H** » 23 Nov 2002 21:17

Thank you for the response, and just because someone is over 100 doesn't mean there automatically dead.

Andy from the Shire

mabadesc · Post by **mabadesc** » 23 Nov 2002 22:40

Andy,

His wife is deceased. She passed away in 1980, but she was surrounded by her family since she came back from a Siberian camp where she spent 11 years. At about the same time she was released were also released the general's entire body guard group, his adjutant, etc...

The best first-hand family account is from his oldest grandson, who was about 14 years old in 1945 and who accompanied the general on the front pretty much everywhere. He knows a lot of details and anecdotes. The events sound like they're from a novel.....incredibly interesting. He has also still has hand-written notes, speeches, etc.
For instance, he remembers being in the same plane carrying Mannstein and Avramescu and he remembers Mannstein making small conversation with him (he was a kid).
He remembers walking into Sevastopol - he was about 12 years old - and he says he can still smell the stench of death from all the decomposing bodies lying on the streets. Surreal....
Finally, he was present at an argument (in 44) between Avramescu and Antonescu. It was a military/strategy argument, and as a result Antonescu relieved Avramescu of command. It was a brief retirement, though, as a few months later King Michael asked him to come out of retirement and to take command of the 4th army. Shortly later, he was dead....
The last thing this grandson remembers is talking with his grandfather (Avramescu) after Avramescu was recalled by the king. The general told him that the war is almost over, and that he would only be gone a few months, and then promised him they will go fishing together every day. Of course, they never saw each other again.

Victor, you obviously know a lot about Romanian WWII history. Are you a historian? Is your interest personal/family or is this your job?

Thanks.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 24 Nov 2002 08:52

You seem to know very much about the Avramescu family. Are you related in any way? Or at least you know the members of his family? Maybe you can interview this grandson. I would be happy to host the interview on my Romanian Army in WWII website.

The Antonescu-Avramescu argument and then the dismissal sounds strange. Avramescu commanded three corps during the anti-Axis campaign, without any pauses. Practically he was reassigned every time after being relieved of command. Maybe the period his grand-son remembers is the period during which he commanded the 3rd Corps, which was not on the front.
After 23 August he was named CO of the 4th Army (which he practically already commanded from 20 August). On 11 January 1945 he was relived of command. After one month (19 February) he was recalled. The rest is known.

The accusations against him were based on the fact that his son in law deserted to the Germans with some of his men. He reportedly told the Germans and the Legionaries that Avramescu would turn the weapons against the Soviets. The Soviets had a double-agent infiltrated and found out. At least this what the Legionaries claim.

Victor wrote: Victor, you obviously know a lot about Romanian WWII history. Are you a historian? Is your interest personal/family or is this your job?

Well, if you will look at my profile you will see that I am not a historian. In fact I am preparing to become an engineer. I am not too happy about it, but this is the situation.
My history interest is mainly a hobby. Maybe it will become a little more serious as time goes by (I hope).
Btw, I do not think that I know that much.

mabadesc · Post by **mabadesc** » 24 Nov 2002 17:22

Victor,

The dismisal did happen (I know it sounds strange). 23rd August caught Avramescu retired (he was thinking of retiring anyway). I don't know if that affected his situation in a positive or negative way. Soon after, though, Malinovsky asked the King to reinstate Avramescu because supposedly "he respected him and his knowledge was needed". Avramescu had a one-on-one personal audience with the King and re-took command of the 4th army.

You're right about his son-in-law, Ilie Sturza, who defected to Spain (he still lives in Madrid), and then proceeded to thank Avramescu on the Radio for allowing him to defect through the front line. The truth is, the only association between Avramescu and the legionaires was coincidental and by marriage - one of his daughters, Felicia, married Ilie Sturza. The General himself grew up in a peasant family and was known for his good heart and reluctance to discuss politics. He was a pure military career man.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 25 Nov 2002 19:31

I know that until 23 August 1944, Avramescu was the CO of the 6th Corps. Well, after gen Racovita went on vacation on 19 August he took effective command of the 4th Army. Until 4 September 1944 he was "un-employed". Maybe this is the situation you are referring to. Maybe he had the quarrel with Antonescu on 22 August (probably telling the marshal to sue for peace) and then he was fired. The Soviets wanted him probably because of the way he acted on the Eastern Front.

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General Avramescu Case - a hot current topic in Romania

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