In the encirclement of the Stalingrad there were caught also two Romanian divisions (1st Cavalry Div and 20th Infantry Division) . Around 3 000 (some sources extimated 5 000) Romanian soldiers were took prisoners ... How many of them managed to stay alive and return home ... There are any testimonies about the captivity of those Romanian POWs?
BI
Romanian POWs in Stalingrad
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Maresal-06
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The only testimonies that I saw in Romania were from POW captured outside the city.Indeed, very good topic
Yes, great topic, Johnny.
Not speaking from a knowledgeable point of view, I can still safely say, however, that not many made it back at all.
I've had the honor of meeting some Romanian military personnel that came back from Siberian camps (not captured at Stalingrad), and they were reluctant to talk about their experience, which indicates how traumatic their years were.
For a more detailed account, I would recommend the memoirs of Captain Negoescu (I think that's his name) - a short book entitled "Cititorule, Ia Aminte!". He was sent to Siberia under different circumstances, but it gives you an idea of what life was like in Siberian camps.
The way they were transported in trains - piled one on top of another, without toilets or even water - reminds one of the way jews were transported to camps like Auschwitz. Unfortunately, Russian atrocities don't get nearly enough publicity as German atrocities did.
Not speaking from a knowledgeable point of view, I can still safely say, however, that not many made it back at all.
I've had the honor of meeting some Romanian military personnel that came back from Siberian camps (not captured at Stalingrad), and they were reluctant to talk about their experience, which indicates how traumatic their years were.
For a more detailed account, I would recommend the memoirs of Captain Negoescu (I think that's his name) - a short book entitled "Cititorule, Ia Aminte!". He was sent to Siberia under different circumstances, but it gives you an idea of what life was like in Siberian camps.
The way they were transported in trains - piled one on top of another, without toilets or even water - reminds one of the way jews were transported to camps like Auschwitz. Unfortunately, Russian atrocities don't get nearly enough publicity as German atrocities did.
Romanians at Staligrad
In William Craig's Book "Enemy at the Gates" he speaks of Romanians in POW camps with the Germans suffering the same conditions. I speculate they had the same survival rate at the end of the war of about 2-5%.
James
James
Could someone trace the ways of these 2 Romanian divisions starting with November 19, 1942 until February 2, 1943 ?
I know that 1st Cavalry division was placed around Kletskaya , being a part of Romanian 3rd Army, respectivelly IVth Corps.
20th Infantry division was placed at the junction between German 6th Army and Romanian 4th Army south of Stalingrad , being a part of Romanian 4th Army , respectivelly VIth Corps .
BI
I know that 1st Cavalry division was placed around Kletskaya , being a part of Romanian 3rd Army, respectivelly IVth Corps.
20th Infantry division was placed at the junction between German 6th Army and Romanian 4th Army south of Stalingrad , being a part of Romanian 4th Army , respectivelly VIth Corps .
BI
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Maresal-06
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Believe it or not, I found some very interesting info in Third Axis, Fourth Ally by Mark Axworthy, Cornel Scafes and Cristian Craciunoiu... 
Pages 111-112.
INSIDE STALINGRAD
The agony of 1st Cavalry's and 20th Infantry Division's 12,607 men in Stalingrad endured to the end of January 1943. Believing that 20th Division represented a weak link in the southern perimeter, the Soviets had attacked its 82nd Regiment on 31 November but were firmly repulsed, leaving ten tanks knocked out in the Romanian positions. Further attacks on 3 and 10 December also failed. The Germans awarded more than 50 Iron Crosses for these actions, and the division's commander, General Tataranu, was awarded the Ritterkreuz on 17 December.
Fortunately the Romanian infantry and cavalry used the same 7.92mm round as the Germans, and could be kept supplied with small-arms ammunition. However, although the two divisions had reached Stalingrad with half their artillery and anti-tank guns intact, they soon ran out of shells and the Germans, who did not use compatible rounds, had thereafter to be relied on for artillery support. 20th Division's infantry regiments were therefore distributed around the German IV Corps. 1st Cavalry Division's horses were eaten by 6th Army during December, and its personnel were then distributed in combat teams to a variety of German divisions in XIV Panzer Corps.
Regular external contact with 20th Infantry and 1st Cavalry was lost on 13 January when General Tataranu, an influential former Deputy Chief of the Army Staff and supporter of General Iacobici, flew out of the pocket without authority, to complain to Antonescu that Romanian commanders were being deprived of control of their troops. Antonescu was furious that he deserted his division, and would have put him before a court martial had Hitler not intervened at the request of General Jaenecke, his German corps commander inside the pocket. The remnant of 20th Division appears to have been kept in the line until 26 January, when it finally collapsed, the day after 6th Army could no longer supply its rations.
Only between two and three thousand Romanians survived to go into captivity. Field Marshal Paulus, the commander of 6th Army, said to them:
"In the circumstances the fighting spirit and leadership displayed by the Romanian units in the army under my command deserve special commendation. With the assistance of heavy weapons of the normal German type issued to them, and thanks to determined leadership by their officers, these troops fought gallantly and showed great steadfastness in the face of all the hardships to which they were subjected."
Pages 111-112.INSIDE STALINGRAD
The agony of 1st Cavalry's and 20th Infantry Division's 12,607 men in Stalingrad endured to the end of January 1943. Believing that 20th Division represented a weak link in the southern perimeter, the Soviets had attacked its 82nd Regiment on 31 November but were firmly repulsed, leaving ten tanks knocked out in the Romanian positions. Further attacks on 3 and 10 December also failed. The Germans awarded more than 50 Iron Crosses for these actions, and the division's commander, General Tataranu, was awarded the Ritterkreuz on 17 December.
Fortunately the Romanian infantry and cavalry used the same 7.92mm round as the Germans, and could be kept supplied with small-arms ammunition. However, although the two divisions had reached Stalingrad with half their artillery and anti-tank guns intact, they soon ran out of shells and the Germans, who did not use compatible rounds, had thereafter to be relied on for artillery support. 20th Division's infantry regiments were therefore distributed around the German IV Corps. 1st Cavalry Division's horses were eaten by 6th Army during December, and its personnel were then distributed in combat teams to a variety of German divisions in XIV Panzer Corps.
Regular external contact with 20th Infantry and 1st Cavalry was lost on 13 January when General Tataranu, an influential former Deputy Chief of the Army Staff and supporter of General Iacobici, flew out of the pocket without authority, to complain to Antonescu that Romanian commanders were being deprived of control of their troops. Antonescu was furious that he deserted his division, and would have put him before a court martial had Hitler not intervened at the request of General Jaenecke, his German corps commander inside the pocket. The remnant of 20th Division appears to have been kept in the line until 26 January, when it finally collapsed, the day after 6th Army could no longer supply its rations.
Only between two and three thousand Romanians survived to go into captivity. Field Marshal Paulus, the commander of 6th Army, said to them:
"In the circumstances the fighting spirit and leadership displayed by the Romanian units in the army under my command deserve special commendation. With the assistance of heavy weapons of the normal German type issued to them, and thanks to determined leadership by their officers, these troops fought gallantly and showed great steadfastness in the face of all the hardships to which they were subjected."
Interesting paragraph, indeed...
I'm wondering, though, is "Third Axis, Fourth Ally" the most detailed (and accurate) book on Romanian WWII military participation? I see this book quoted a lot when it comes to Romania, but I'm not very impressed with its accuracy.
Does anyone know of another detailed book similar in subject to "Third Axis...."?
I'm wondering, though, is "Third Axis, Fourth Ally" the most detailed (and accurate) book on Romanian WWII military participation? I see this book quoted a lot when it comes to Romania, but I'm not very impressed with its accuracy.
Does anyone know of another detailed book similar in subject to "Third Axis...."?
The Tataranu case is a bit controversial. He left the besieged city on 13 January together with three officers (his chief of staff, his aid and an administration officer). They left at the order of general Paulus, who wrote:
General Tataranu Nicolae is leaving the fortress by air for a time to share the important experience gained here for the reorganization of the Romanian troops. My experiences and ideas coincide with the ones of general Tataranu. The Romanian troops who fought and are still fighting bravely to defend the fortress need outside help. It is very important to send them food, munitions and clothing..
He arrived in Bucharest on 16, but met the marshal on 17 January. Antonescu was very harsh with him and told him, among others, that he did an ugly deed which dishonored the army. The only solution was to go back and stay there. But right after his departure the airfield had been captured by the Soviets and there was no way to come into the city (the maeshal even considered the possibility of parachuting Tataranu into Stalingrad). He left on 19 January but had to stop at Rostov because of his illness and sent back to Romania to a hospital. In October 1943 he was named CO of the sedentary part of the Mountain Corps.
Tataranu got off easily, mostly because Antonescu chose not to make too much fuss about the case (mostly for propagandistic reasons) and because of Hitler's intervention during the meeting on 12 April in Salzburg, when he said that Tataranu acted at his wish to save a valuable commander, just like he did with general Haube.
From the 20th Infantry Division only second line elements managed to escape the encirclement. Initially the division had to defend a 18 km front. After the Soviet offensive started on 20 November, Tataranu managed to keep the cohesion of his remaining forces and retreat to the city. Some very heavy fighting followed, including several situations when, without any ammo left, the soldiers counter-attacked with bayonets and shovels. On 2 February, the resistance ceased.
General Tataranu Nicolae is leaving the fortress by air for a time to share the important experience gained here for the reorganization of the Romanian troops. My experiences and ideas coincide with the ones of general Tataranu. The Romanian troops who fought and are still fighting bravely to defend the fortress need outside help. It is very important to send them food, munitions and clothing..
He arrived in Bucharest on 16, but met the marshal on 17 January. Antonescu was very harsh with him and told him, among others, that he did an ugly deed which dishonored the army. The only solution was to go back and stay there. But right after his departure the airfield had been captured by the Soviets and there was no way to come into the city (the maeshal even considered the possibility of parachuting Tataranu into Stalingrad). He left on 19 January but had to stop at Rostov because of his illness and sent back to Romania to a hospital. In October 1943 he was named CO of the sedentary part of the Mountain Corps.
Tataranu got off easily, mostly because Antonescu chose not to make too much fuss about the case (mostly for propagandistic reasons) and because of Hitler's intervention during the meeting on 12 April in Salzburg, when he said that Tataranu acted at his wish to save a valuable commander, just like he did with general Haube.
From the 20th Infantry Division only second line elements managed to escape the encirclement. Initially the division had to defend a 18 km front. After the Soviet offensive started on 20 November, Tataranu managed to keep the cohesion of his remaining forces and retreat to the city. Some very heavy fighting followed, including several situations when, without any ammo left, the soldiers counter-attacked with bayonets and shovels. On 2 February, the resistance ceased.
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Maresal-06
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Very tragic indeed...
I do not have statistics for survival rate of Romanians prisones but have one for the Germans , and probably the Romanians fared worse than Germans as during the siege they had to rely on the Germans for food and it seems often complained about receiving a lower ration.
The datas indicated below come for Antony Beevor book "Stalingrad" , I was shocked to earn that generals fared much better than the ranks , I would have thought that being older men they would have died at much bigger rate instead they receved a much better treatment than their men ad during the siege had access to better and larger ratiions .
at page 415 Beevor says " QUOTE " The generals were the first to leave Their destination was a camp near Moscow . They departed in what junior officers cynically dubbeb the White Train , because its carriage were so comfortable . Great bitterness was caused by the fact that those who had given orders to fight to the end had not outlived their own rhetoric , but now enjoyed incomparably better conditions than their men ' It is the duty of a general to stay with his men ' remarked one leutenant ' not to go off in a sleeping car .
Chances of survival proved brutally dependent on rank . Over 95 per cent of soldiers and NCO died , 55 per cent of junior officer and just 5 per cent of senior officers . As the foreign journalists had noted , few of the senior officers had shown signs of starvation just after the surrender , so their defences were not dangerously weakened in the same way as their men's. The priviliged treatment which the generals received , however , was a revealing testimony to the Soviet Union's sense of hierarchy." UNQUOTE
I can also add that the italians made prisoners during the russian offensive fared a little better , as around 10 per cent returned home after the war . Also for the Italians survival depended on rank , all the three generals captured , two of the Alpini and one of Infantry , returned from Russia .
Probably the Italians not having to suffer a long siege and starvation were better able to cope with the first winter of inprisonment than the Germans or Romanians captured in Stalingrad .
Yours
GLADIVM
The datas indicated below come for Antony Beevor book "Stalingrad" , I was shocked to earn that generals fared much better than the ranks , I would have thought that being older men they would have died at much bigger rate instead they receved a much better treatment than their men ad during the siege had access to better and larger ratiions .
at page 415 Beevor says " QUOTE " The generals were the first to leave Their destination was a camp near Moscow . They departed in what junior officers cynically dubbeb the White Train , because its carriage were so comfortable . Great bitterness was caused by the fact that those who had given orders to fight to the end had not outlived their own rhetoric , but now enjoyed incomparably better conditions than their men ' It is the duty of a general to stay with his men ' remarked one leutenant ' not to go off in a sleeping car .
Chances of survival proved brutally dependent on rank . Over 95 per cent of soldiers and NCO died , 55 per cent of junior officer and just 5 per cent of senior officers . As the foreign journalists had noted , few of the senior officers had shown signs of starvation just after the surrender , so their defences were not dangerously weakened in the same way as their men's. The priviliged treatment which the generals received , however , was a revealing testimony to the Soviet Union's sense of hierarchy." UNQUOTE
I can also add that the italians made prisoners during the russian offensive fared a little better , as around 10 per cent returned home after the war . Also for the Italians survival depended on rank , all the three generals captured , two of the Alpini and one of Infantry , returned from Russia .
Probably the Italians not having to suffer a long siege and starvation were better able to cope with the first winter of inprisonment than the Germans or Romanians captured in Stalingrad .
Yours
GLADIVM