Why Bulgaria, Romania and Hungary joined Germany.

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Kralle18
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Why Bulgaria, Romania and Hungary joined Germany.

Post by Kralle18 » 29 Aug 2007 21:18

I've have often wondered why Bulgaria, Romania and Hunagry joined the germans in WWII. I guess romania joined because of Bessarabia? Hungary because of territorial losses in WWI? I have no idea why Bulgaria joined the war..

Can anyone shed ligth on this for me?

Vuk
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Post by Vuk » 29 Aug 2007 21:28

Bulgaria joined to regain their losses (and a bit extra) that they had lost i WW1, unlike the other two they were intelligent enough not to join in the attack on the Soviets

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bokenzzo
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Post by bokenzzo » 29 Aug 2007 23:59

Well I will try to be short. Bulgaria and Hungary thought that the peace treaty from Trianon,France (1920.) had damaged them.So when France got weak they wanted to take the land they thought was their with help of Axis forces. Germany was willing to give them these lands in return of their military support in Vermacht's operations in Yugoslavia. Romania also wanted a bit of Yugoslav land (Banat-eastern Vojvodina) so they entered the war also.
Hungary wanted Vojvodina and northern Slavonija,while Bulgaria wanted Macedonia. The quisling leaders of these countries were admiral Horty (mind that Hungary doesn't have sea :D ) and tzar Boris I .
So its always the same! You enter war for land and power.

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CB1
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Minor Axis Nations

Post by CB1 » 30 Aug 2007 10:11

Hi,

Dear Bokenzzo,

Let me rephrase your post a bit. Hungary wanted territories that were taken from her in the first place. In my view calling the Banat of Temes Yugoslav land is the same as if I called Belgrade a Hungarian city (as far as I know in 1427 Stephen Lazarevic made a treaty and ceded it to Sigismund, King of Hungary). If my memory serves me well Serbs and Romanians nearly clashed in the Banat during the land rush after WW1. Serbia also wanted Pécs (occupied it between 1918-1921), what more, Benes wanted a Czechoslovak-Yugoslav corridor right through Western Hungary. Were these Czechoslovak or Yugoslav lands? I think your sentences – modified a bit – fit to describe this situation instead:
“So when Hungary got weak they wanted to take the land they thought was their with help of Entente forces. Entente was willing to give them these lands in return of their military support…”

Admiral Horthy: just in case you do not know Horthy was a naval officer of the Austro-Hungarian Navy, and a competent one (as far as I know his hit-and-run light-cruiser operations were taught in Britain after the war but that is not important now). And he was far from being a quisling, he was more like a guy who tried to drift with the current and steer his country between bad and worse. He failed.

Dear Kralle18,

So why Romania joined Germany? They had to choose between Hitler and Stalin. Stalin wanted the territory, Hitler only wanted the oil. The choice was obvious.

Hungary wanted a revision of the unjust Trianon treaty. France was beaten, England was not interested, Italy (against Yugoslavia) Germany (against Czechoslovakia) and the Soviet Union (against Romania) were. The choice became very straight before the Yugoslav campaign, best described by a bonmot attributed to Keitel. He is said to be asked how long does it take to move Wehrmacht troops down to the Yugoslav border in Hungary. “48 hours” he answered. And if Hungary resisted? “24 hours” he answered. How come? “We can skip the speeches.” So the choice was between play along or get occupied.

Bulgaria had not joined the war, the war joined her so to say. They declared war on Britain and the USA but never fought them. When the Soviets reached the borders however it was no longer possible to stay out of the conflict. As far as I know for a period of time Bulgaria had the privilege to be at war with the allies and the axis simultaneously (Bring'em on! :-) )

Bye,
Krisz

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Csaba Becze
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Post by Csaba Becze » 30 Aug 2007 10:29

Vuk

... Romania joined to the attack against the SU because of the territorial claims (Bessarabia and Northern Bucovina) Hungary joined after 3 Soviet bomber attacked a Hungarian town and few Soviet fighters strafed a train in Hungarian territory (similarly to Finland) BTW there was one another cause, but I'm afraid you wouldn't understand it, so I'm not wasting my time to explain.

Bulgaria did not joined to ths campaign, since they were Slavic relatives, the former Russia helped a lot Bulgaria (especially against the turkish) and their relationship was extremely good (I mean, between the nations, not between the communist leaders and the tzarist Bulgaria)

bokenzzo
The Hungarian peace treaty was signed at Trianon in 1920, the Bulgarian at Neully in 1919. They did not 'tought' that these peace treaties 'damaged' them, it is a fact. Hungary wanted back its former territory, including the Vajdaság (not northern Slavonia, since the Baranya triangle was not part of the genuine Slavonia, it was a part of Hungary)

The quisling is a traitor leader of an occupied country. Hungary and Bulgaria were not invaded by Germany in 1941 and both of the mentioned leaders led their countries since the end of WW I.
Horthy earned his rank as the commander of the k. u. k. Kriegsmarine.

The Bulgarian Tzar, what you are talking about, was the IIIrd Boris (the Ist was a medieval tzar)

Just both of you: if you lack of basic historical knowledge, ask and do not post your opinions - based on your fantasy - as facts.

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Post by Vuk » 30 Aug 2007 10:50

First of all the bombing of Kassa is highly controversial, the Hungarian pilot intercepting the bombers reported them to be He-111. Secondly the Romanian efforts on the eastern front were less to do with Bessarabia and Bukovina than hoping to get the Germans to rethink the the Transylvania question. Bulagaria choose not participate because they had no real problems with the Soviets (and unlike Hungary didn´t attack out of purely ideological reasons like Hungary and Slovakia) and concentrated on Serbia and Greece.

As for lacking historical knowledge I got only one thing to say Nationalistic Myth =/= Historical Knowledge

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Csaba Becze
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Post by Csaba Becze » 30 Aug 2007 11:29

Vuk wrote:First of all the bombing of Kassa is highly controversial, the Hungarian pilot intercepting the bombers reported them to be He-111. Secondly the Romanian efforts on the eastern front were less to do with Bessarabia and Bukovina than hoping to get the Germans to rethink the the Transylvania question. Bulagaria choose not participate because they had no real problems with the Soviets (and unlike Hungary didn´t attack out of purely ideological reasons like Hungary and Slovakia) and concentrated on Serbia and Greece.

As for lacking historical knowledge I got only one thing to say Nationalistic Myth =/= Historical Knowledge


First of all, the Hungarian fighters never intercepted the attackers of Kassa. Only one pilot approached a pair of unindetified two mot planes far from Kassa (far from geographically and in time as well, and these planes were not He 111's too) Kassa was attacked by three planes, most probably by DB-3's.

Between Romania and Hungary, there was a kind of race for Transylvania and this was the second cause of the Hungarian attack against the SU. You stated above, the the Romanians and Hungarians were kind of not enough intelligent, that's why they attacked the Soviets. Apart from that this is a pretty primitive and rude statement, you should know the roots of the attack and the general opinion in Central Europe (everybody tought, that the SU will collapse soon).

I don't know, where can you see any nationalstic myths - I can see only two
strange posts above.

BTW I have a summa cum laude PhD about this topic, but thanks to 'enlighten' me...

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CB1
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Post by CB1 » 30 Aug 2007 11:34

Dear Vuk,

Cpl. Balogh - the pilot who intercepted the bombers - said they were "similar" to He-111 (ie. not He-111). And Krudy said they were similar to Savoia (or "Savoya" as he put it) bombers. And there is the testimony of József Ledényi, engineer in the RHAF. He was standing in front of the hangars of Kassa airfield. He said he have not seen such airplanes before and the sound of engines were distinctly different from what he had heard that far. He positively denied that the bombers were He-111, Ju-86 or Capronis. And he was a scale-modeler, carved the aircraft models for the Kassa Air Force Academy...

Romania: fair point but in my opinion avoiding excessive Soviet "interest" was far more important at the time.

Ahem...I seem to miss your point here: "...and unlike Hungary didn´t attack out of purely ideological reasons like Hungary and Slovakia..."

"Nationalistic Myth =/= Historical Knowledge" - I agree.

Bye,
Krisz

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Post by Vuk » 30 Aug 2007 11:52

Neither Slovakia nor Hungary had any real problems with the USSR ( at this time). The Kassa incident used to commit Hungary to the war in the East.
Slovakia (or more precisely its Government) as far as I know had no other reason than the "Crusade against Bolshevism".

Do you happen to have a link to the model you mentioned?

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Post by G:son » 30 Aug 2007 12:13

Vuk wrote:Slovakia (or more precisely its Government) as far as I know had no other reason than the "Crusade against Bolshevism".



Slovakia was hardly a fully independent state in 1941, that could make it's own decisions about war and peace. Apart from the wish to join the crusade against bolshevism, there was of course strong pressure from Germany for Slovakia to join the war.

Hungary and Romania were not under identical pressure from Germany, but nonetheless they were also under pressure from Berlin, and knew exactly what was expected from them.

I really do not see the point of judging their decisions to join Germany from the outcome of the war. The same goes for Finland, in retrospect it was a terrible hubris for Finland to attack the Soviet Union, but in 1941 it made sense, for a number of reasons.
Last edited by G:son on 30 Aug 2007 12:35, edited 1 time in total.

Vuk
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Post by Vuk » 30 Aug 2007 12:33

The same pressure was applied on Bulgaria to join in the attack. I know that was Slovakia was a puppet and mostly had to carry out Berlins orders but they still limited their involvement. Hungary had no territorial claims on the USSR and had largely already recovered the territory they sought. Romania of course wished the return of territory they lost to the USSR (like Finland) but after that this territory was recovered the advance was motivated by the wish to prove their worth as an Axis member and thus regain Transylvania. "Arad via Odessa" and "On to Budapest" where seen on their tanks.

I am not judging and I know that most experts at the time expected the USSR to fall apart. The original question was why these countries joined the Axis, to which I answered that Bulgaria joined to recover their losses in WW1 (perhaps should have said WW1 and 2nd Balkan War) and was then called an stupid.

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CB1
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I should have been more specific...

Post by CB1 » 30 Aug 2007 12:34

Hi Vuk,

He carved the models of the axis types (He-111, Ju-86 etc.) used during lectures not the models of the attackers. If you are looking for a weak link in that story I would suggest asking how he failed to look in a picture-book abundantly available after the war. That would be hard to answer.

Hungary's commitment to Barbarossa is an interesting story as well. As far as I know Rundstedt wanted Hungarian participation very much. It was Hitler & Co who decided against it. If Hitler told us to go we would be in it from the very first moment (just like the Slovaks). Hitler said we can stay out so we stayed out. That created a very delicate situation: pro-German soldiers wanted to go (it is our moral duty to join the Crusade), pro-British politicians wanted to stay out (we took part in the Yugoslav campaign, Romania stayed out then, let it be the other way this time). According to an account I have read top brass put the knife to Horthy's neck: either he declares war or the Army revolts. Well, maybe the situation was not that, all in all the attack on Kassa came as redemption. Soviet airplanes attacked a Hungarian city and strafed a train on Hungarian soil so there is a state of war between our countries. Big deal, the Wehrmacht should finish the Red Army in six weeks. Or so it was thought.

Bye,
Krisz

PS: independent decision: Hungarian diplomacy made great efforts just to find out what Hitler wanted: should Hungary participate or stay out.
Last edited by CB1 on 30 Aug 2007 12:38, edited 1 time in total.

Vuk
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Post by Vuk » 30 Aug 2007 12:38

Not looking for a weak link, just interested in the model and if there is a picture of it.

Edit: Should have read more carefully, so he didn`t make a model of the attackers?

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CB1
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Nope

Post by CB1 » 30 Aug 2007 13:13

Hi,

No, he did not (some drawings would also be nice but apparently he failed to produce any - which makes me suspicious a bit). Anyway, if we trust him (or rather the author who published his testimony) then we can exclude both He-111 and the bombers used by the Hungarian Air Force.

Bye,
Krisz

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Post by Vuk » 30 Aug 2007 13:25

I don´t think that the Hungarian Airforce has been suspected of being the attackers, the speculations I have read have pointed their fingers on Romania, Slovakia and of course the USSR.

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