New monument to the Hungarian soldiers in Russia

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Alex Yeliseenko
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New monument to the Hungarian soldiers in Russia

Postby Alex Yeliseenko » 18 Oct 2007 16:21

In Russia, in Sudzha town, one can see the new monument to the Hungarian soldiers. They fought on the German side. The monument is installed close to an Orthodox church. On one of the main versions, in February 1943 the Hungarian wounded soldiers were burnt by Germans in a church...

http://www.izvestia.ru/special/article3109360/ (text, photo)

Regards

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KACKO
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Postby KACKO » 19 Oct 2007 14:22

Took me over 30 minutes to get through it but it is very interesting article.
Is there some informations on reason why were they killed? I mean except that they were pulled out of the train.
And from which unit they could be?

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Alex Yeliseenko
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Postby Alex Yeliseenko » 19 Oct 2007 15:49

KACKO wrote:Took me over 30 minutes to get through it but it is very interesting article.
Is there some informations on reason why were they killed? I mean except that they were pulled out of the train.
And from which unit they could be?


Article has seemed also to me interesting. It is a theme new to me.

I shall look in one book of a card of a disposition of Hungarian units. But I think these wounded soldiers were from different units.

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KACKO
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Postby KACKO » 20 Oct 2007 04:17

Could they be Gypsies and Jews from technical units (working)? I don't know how many these kind of units Hungarians had in Soviet union but it came me really strange to kill wounded allied soldiers.

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Postby Alex Yeliseenko » 20 Oct 2007 05:09

There are data about the several facts of murder by Germans of wounded Italians also

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KACKO
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Postby KACKO » 20 Oct 2007 18:28

I understand that Germans were pissed off that Hungarians (Italians) were not able to hold their part of the front line but still. To execute wounded allied soldiers, so they apparently fought.... I just can't find words.

BTW. Many Slovaks from lands annexed after 1st Vienna in November 1938 and Slovak lands occupied by Hungarians after their treacherous attack in March 23rd 1939 had to serve in Hungarian Army. So there were Slovaks in at least 6 armies on Eastern front. (Slovak, Hungarian, Czechoslovak, Romanian, Soviet and few in German).

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Qvist
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Postby Qvist » 13 Nov 2007 20:09

Uh, that story seems extremely implausible, to say the least.

cheers

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Csaba Becze
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Postby Csaba Becze » 16 Nov 2007 19:34

If you want to know, there were similar stories. I mentioned these things here too:
http://mmpbooks.biz/books/g4101/g4101.htm

I know many disgusting stories and finally the angry Hungarians killed some Germans as well (one Hungarian order even contains the command to use the weapons against the Germans in this situations)

And just one concrete example: on 29 April, 1943 the Germans burned to death 234 Hungarian Jewish labour workers at Dorosichi while they slept in a big manor. These labour workers were part of the Hungarian Armed forces, so the Germans mass murdered deliberately their brother in arms here (and not just here...).

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KACKO
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Postby KACKO » 16 Nov 2007 20:03

Now I would like to now if there are similar stories from Romanian side.

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Qvist
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Postby Qvist » 16 Nov 2007 21:06

If you want to know, there were similar stories. I mentioned these things here too:
http://mmpbooks.biz/books/g4101/g4101.htm


I stand surprised, to put it like that - it just seems so illogical. But well, if it happened, it happened.

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KACKO
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Postby KACKO » 27 Nov 2007 16:40

Could they be Jews from Katonai Munkásszázadok?

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Qvist
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Postby Qvist » 27 Nov 2007 19:19

Are anyone in a position to provide more specific and preferably sourced information about such incidents? It is a highly interesting aspect of the war in the East.

cheers

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KACKO
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Postby KACKO » 27 Nov 2007 19:32

July 12, 1942 was the start of deploying approximately 50,000 Jewish laborers to the Ukraine front.
April 30, 1943 massacre of Jewish Labor Service personnel in Doroshits - Ukraine
July 2, 1943 German-Hungarian agreement to deploy 6200 men in Jewish Labor Service companies to Bor, Serbia, to work in the copper mines.

By the summer of 1943 over 800.000 individuals, both Jews and non-Jews, were in the military labor service. Organizationally, these individuals served within the framework of the following three major labor service systems:

Military labor companies (Katonai Munkásszázadok) composed of Hungarians and national minorities of Trianon Hungary.
Public labor service battalions (Közérdekü munkaszolgálatos zászlóaljak).
Auxiliary, i.e. Jewish, labor service companies (KisegítŒ zsidó munkásszázadok).


From: Captain László Ocskay and the 101/359 Labor Service Company
by Dan Danieli

According to http://www.hdke.hu/index.php?menu=07010 ... 1dc03324af,
Hungarian page about Holocaust in Hungary 35 - 40 000 Jews served in Katonai Munkásszázadok units on Eastern front in 2nd Hungarian army from which 28-32 000 never came home.

There were probably not only Jews but Hungarians, Romanians, Slovaks and other minorities in these units.

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CB1
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friendly fire

Postby CB1 » 28 Nov 2007 11:13

Hi,

In my opinion it had little to do with nationalities, it is rather the question of the "stronger prevails". And not in the racist sense. Those with better means (arms, trucks, organization) had better chances.

2nd Hungarian Army did not have the best (officers and manpower) that Hungary could offer (it was conserved for a later use against Romania). Officers often failed to keep their men together as a cohesive unit. Stragglers were screwed. Those officers who managed could make "miracles" however. My favourite story is an arty unit that "withdraw" from the front up to the Hungarian border - the officer was a bit of a wheeler-dealer. Hungarian units had little transportation capacity. Even the remaining vehicles wer often taken away from them by Germans who were usually armed and retreating orderly. Hungarian soldiers usually "lost" their rifles so they had little "bargaining-power". It is true the other way as well. I have read a story of a Nimród (SP AT/AA gun) crew. They reached a village by night and found Hungarian soldiers outside the houses freezing.
"Why don't you take shelter in the houses?"
"There are Germans inside and point SMGs at us if we try to enter."
The commander moved his vehicle to the window, dismounted and knocked in. A German came to the door with SMG in hand. There was a short conversation. A 40mm cannon easily persuaded the SMG. Soon the Germans were out in the cold and the Hungarians in the house. Or another story: some Hungarian units originally on the southern flank were mingled with Italians. As far as I know the Italian Army broke earlier than the Hungarian. Still, Italians riflebutted the hands of Hungarians trying to get on Italian vehicles. The Italians had arms and trucks that ensured their better chances at survival. They wanted to conserve that advantage and it had nothing to do with racist prejudice or anything. If we consider these factors it can be easily understood why Jews fared really badly during the withdrawal.

Jews and minorities: Jews were not allowed to serve in regular military units. A telling story is that what happened to Sándor Hauczinger (I hope I spelled right). He was a young fighter pilot and already an ace. Winner of Iron Cross 2nd class. He was to be admitted to the Academy in Kassa. But it turned out that one of his grandmothers happened to be Jewish. Admission denied and kicked out of the air force. Can you imagine this? The guy would have knocked out about a dozen Liberators of the sky before shot down himself but no, he is Jewish, he is unreliable. Later he found the Iron Cross very useful though. When Jews were forced to wear yellow stars he had a choice. Put on the star of David or put on his old uniform with the IC. He opted for the latter and it turned out to be a good decision, he survived. Anyway Jews and communists were out of armed service and were organized into labor companies. After the 2nd Vienna decision when a shortage of uniforms occured they were forced to serve in their own civilian clothes. In spite of these insults many of them retained their patriotic feelings towards Hungary and there are stories of Jewish laborers taking up captured Soviet arms and fighting against the Red Army. Ethnic minorities were better off. They were excluded from "elite" units (air force, armored or cavalry units) but - as far as I know - there were no other official prohibitions. They were not trusted though and usually filled up the ranks of support units (cartdrivers in the train, bakers in the field bakery etc.)

Bye,
Krisz

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KACKO
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Postby KACKO » 28 Nov 2007 14:10

Hello Krisz,
however my friend found in Slovakian archives name of one Slovak who served as a Hungarian para. He was in contact with him few years ago. But I am not sure if guy didn't act during the war as a Hungarian from former Czechoslovak territories. And few more interesting persons who before the war and after the war proclaimed themselves for Slovaks but served on pretty interesting position.

Anyway. What I wanted to tell if some German unit with some nazi officer found this Jewish-Hungarian soldiers from labor battalions it can explain why they did this terrible act.

I have one more question. I found name of Lt. who served in Hungarian Army. He was from territories annexed after 1st Vienna. He had a high school diploma, spoke Slovak, Hungarian, German, Latin and little English. (High school diploma was necessary to become officer in Czechoslovak army, maybe in Hungarian too???). Now interesting part came. He was Gypsy an later was killed by one of soldier under his command who couldn't get over that Gypsy is his commander.


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