Szent Laszlo Division (continuation)

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Victor
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Szent Laszlo Division (continuation)

Post by Victor » 12 Mar 2002 19:34

I want to add that there were no Romanian troops near the Balaton lake. I don't know what the division fought against there, but there were no Romanian Army units in the area.

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Post by Victor » 12 Mar 2002 19:38

I am sorry last time I posted in the wrong section. It was late... :)

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Andy H
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Post by Andy H » 12 Mar 2002 21:29

Yes I agree, however during the battle for Budapest the Romanian VI Corps with 9th Cav,2nd & 19th Inf Divs were attached to the Russian 7th Gds Army (Though the Romanians were sent north to rejoin either Romanian 1st/4th Armies), which after the fall of Budapest was to the north of Lake Balaton where it became involved with 1st SS & PzKorps FH.
Thus some people might have thought that the VI Corps still being attached were involved in the Lake Balaton fighting :?

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???

Post by FJ-SteamboatWillie » 12 Mar 2002 23:35

Mr. Gepistolly if you can, could you please re-post that same research on the Szent Laszlo division? If you saved it onto a text file or whatever, could you do it?
Thanks.

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Geppistoly Katona
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sure thing

Post by Geppistoly Katona » 13 Mar 2002 03:40

Yes i sure will, hold on...

here she is [ with some modifications ]:


Short History:

The Szent László hadosztály (St. Laszlo division) was a Hungarian Army division made up of the most elite units Hungary had to offer. Officially formed on October 12th, 1944, decreed the 13th. This unit was named after one of Hungary's most famous saints, Szent László [ also known ad Good King Ladislaus, whom is the patron saint of Exiles and all military men. He was king of Hungary from 1077 to 1095.


Makup of this unit:

This elite unit was commanded by Major [ not Brigadier ] General Zoltán Szügyi [1896-?], from the 12th of October until May 11th 1945, [ when he surrendered to the British, but fought against the Red Army with great courage up until the last hour].

This unit was comprised of the following:

1. Paratrooper Regiment:[ parachute infantry ]

Parachute Battalion
Heavy Weapons Battalion [ mortars etc. ]
Training Battalion

2. Grenadier Regiment [ infantry ]

1. Bodyguard rifleman battalion [ infantry ]

2. Royal Feldgendarmerie Battalion [ infantry ]

3. Flying Rifleman Regiment [Also known as the 3. Fortress regiment] [ made up of pilots and groundmen as the airports and planes had been destroyed] [More or less an infantry unit]

1.Direct Corps [was formated from the destroyed Divisions, Veterans] [ infantry]

1. Artillery Battalion [ artillery ]

6. Artillery Battalion [mot.] [ artillery ]

9. Artillery Battalion [ artillery, mostly of 210 mm howitzers, and some 305 mm howitzers ]

76. Artillery Battalion [ artillery, mostly of 210 mm howitzers ]

1. Rocket Launcher Battalion [ armored vehicle regiment ]

20. Assault Gun Battalion [ tank destroyer regiment ]

Szt. László Combat Engineer Battalion [mot] [ engineer ]

Szt. László Armored Reconnaissance Battalion [ made up of mostly outdated tanks, such as the Turan I]

Szt. László Signal Battalion [ mot.]

Szt. László Division Supply Services HQ


Military Actions:

The previously ready paratrooper battalions and artillery corps, comprised of mixed division units thrown together on November into the first half of December were situated in the middle at the Pest-bridgehead aswell as Kéthely. At this time the training unit, training soldiers at Pápa were brought to the rear. The first action this division took part in as a complete division (II.Paratrooper Battalion, Grenadier Regiment and Air
Rifleman Regiment) . december 22nd of December, 1944 to january 9th, 1945. At the Garam-Ipoly (a two name river) they fought bravely. They were outnumbered by the enemy 2: 1 at Letkés-bridgehead. They fought for close to 2 hours and lost many soldiers but were able to drive an enemy twice their size, and better equiped, back. Therefore the Soviets withdrew from the attack and regrooped for another attack. By this time, instead of defending their posts in vain the retreated to a stronghold about 1 mile back. They cought up with the training regiment from Pápa. Then they fought in defence against the Soviets and Rumanians on the Balaton-highland and Zala-region. They inflicted incredibly high cassualties on WHAT A VET BY THE NAME OF GUSTAV ABLE CLAIMED TO BE RUMANIAN SATTELITE TROOPS, and less so on the Soviets, but they held off the attack once again TO THE NORTH OF THE BALATON REGION WHERE THEY WERE RETREATING, this time they lost few men. They then retreated before the next offensive to german lines in the NORTH OF THE Zala region. The Germans used the St. Laszlo division for rearguard, but they refused to let the Germans fight alone while their unit was allowed to regroop, and fought along side the Germans in small mixed up units. They persued the enemy to the Mura (river), then later the Mura-vally, where they were beaten back. So they retreated back to Austria, fighting soviets all the way, just to surrender to the more sympathetic British forces. They put down their guns for British army on the 11th of may 1945. British army forced them to march across the Kor-Alpok, in the Carpathians. Once to where they were going the Brits deemed the St. Laszlo division trustworthy and allowed them their weapons, in return they did guarding work at various prison camps in the British zone until the end of 1945. Around October 1st to be exact.

Earlier exploits of this division [ not as a whole] were occupying Yugoslavia, and they also patched a hole somewhere in the vacinity of Kursk in the German lines, which they were commended by Hitler, He himself even said they were as good as his best, and could do things his own army could not accomplish.

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Romanian troops in Hungary in 1944/45

Post by Victor » 13 Mar 2002 19:37

At the beginning of October 1944, the Romanian 1st Army (7th and 4th Corps) was concentrated for the offensive in Hungary. Because the 4th Army was engaged in the battles in north-western Transylvania, a more important mission, it received the support of all the Romanian armored and air units. Also, from the 1st Army, only the 9th Cavalry Division and 19th Infantry Division (from the 7th Corps) had rich battle experience.
On 6 October started the offensive of the Soviet 53rd Army against the Hungarian 3rd Army and the German 6th Army. The Romanian 1st Army, which was subordinated to the Soviet 53rd Army, engaged the 3rd Mountain Division in the fights around Oradea. It supported the Soviet 337th Infantry Division, 6th Motorized Brigade and the "Tudor Vladimirescu" Division (a Soviet division created from Romanian volunteers recruited from POWs) against the Hungarian 4th Infantry Division and the German 7th Infantry Division.
The 2nd and 3rd Mountain Division were subordinated to the Soviet 27th Army. They and the "T. Vladimirescu" Division had a great contribution in the offensive towards Debrecen.
The units of the 1st Army were engaged in the first line from 11 October. The 7th Corps (9th Cavalry Division and 19th Infantry Division) had the mission to establish a bridgehead over the Tisa river near Mindszent. It was opposed by the Hungarian 1st Armored Division and 23rd Infantry Division. The 4th Corps (2nd and 4th Infantry Division) had to force the Tisa river near Szolnok. It was counterattacked by the Hungarian 1st Infantry Division and 1st Cavalry Division and the German 24th Armored Division, 4th SS Police Division and a tank battalion equipped with Tigers. The Romanian 4th Infantry Division and units of the Soviet 203rd Infantry Division were encircled. Lacking AT guns, it surrendered after 30 hours of resistance, on 20 October.
Following the German-Hungarian successes, the 7th Corps was retreated over the Tisa and moved to the north, were it occupied a defensive line between Öcsöd and Szarvas. The Soviet 7th Guard Army launched a counteroffensive and recuperated the lost ground. The 19th Infantry Division forced the Tisa river and established a bridgehead at Alpar.
On 25 October, the Hungarian 1st Cavalry Division and 20th Infantry Division attacked the Romanian 2nd Division, which retreated over the Tisa. Aiming to speculate their recent victories, the Hungarians launched an offensive, between 26 and 29 October, against the Alpar bridgehead with the 3rd and 8th Infantry Division and 1st Armored Division. The Romanian 19th Infantry Division repulsed the assault and inflicted heavy casualties to the enemy.
Between 21 September and 25 October 1944, the Romanian 1st Army lost 8,720 (dead, wounded and missing) of its 67,347 soldiers.
Following the capture of the Romanian 4th Infantry Division, the Soviet 53rd Army reinforced the 7th Corps with the Soviet 114th AT Regiment. It also received the 2nd Infantry Division from the 4th Corps. On 30 November, the Soviet 7th Guard Army and the Romanian 7th Corps, commanded by gen. Nicolae Sova, started the offensive towards Budapest. They successively defeated all resistance they encountered and, on 30 December, they reached the outskirts of the city. On 1st January, the 7th Corps commenced the attack on Budapest. Until 15 January, it advanced 6 km into the city after extremely heavy street fighting, which could have rivaled with in ferocity with the fights in Berlin or Stalingrad. On 15 and 16 January 1945 it was pulled out and sent up north to the frontier with Czechoslovakia. Thus the Romanian troops were deprived of their part of victory, which was claimed entirely by the Red Army, two days later. The 7th Corps lost 11,000 of its 36,348 soldiers, in Operation "Budapest".
Meanwhile, the 4th Corps (2nd and 3rd Mountain Division) and the 4th Army continued to advance, together with Soviet forces, into north-eastern Hungary. In that region are the Matra, Bükk and Hegyla Mountains, which had to be crossed before entering Czechoslovakia.


As you see there were no Romanian troops fighting in the Balaton area. One possibility was that the St Lazlo Division fought against the "Tudor Vladimirescu" Division, but I am not sure of this. However, this was not a Romanian Division. It's true it was manned by Romanians, but it was part of the Red Army and fought after Red Army doctrine. So it wasn't a Romanian unit.
Another possibility would be that your friend is mistaking.
Last edited by Victor on 24 Mar 2002 12:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Victor » 13 Mar 2002 19:38

RUMANIAN SATTELITE TROOPS

Did they also have ray guns and laser swords?
:roll:
Sorry, I couldn't help myself.
Last edited by Victor on 24 Mar 2002 12:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Andy H » 13 Mar 2002 21:28

Between October 6th to January 15th, the Romanian Army deployed 210,006 men in Hungary, and suffered some 42,700 casualties, though they did take 21,045 POW's.

The high attrition rate was sign of how the Russians were going to use the Romanian troops in future battles. The Romanian forces were used to attack the centre of Hungary's two largest cities and assault the three mountian ranges in Hungary, both of which you would be expected to be heavily defended.

High Ho Silver Away!!!! :D

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Geppistoly Katona
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Post by Geppistoly Katona » 13 Mar 2002 23:34

Never once did i say they were part of the Rumanian Army, i said they were sattelite troops, which in this context means they were experimental units fighting under Soviet leadership [ in other words they were Rumanians fighting for the Reds ] he never told me what units they were from he just said he knew they were ethnic Rumanians...And yes the Soviets did take the most glory out of the victory at Budapest, one more thing, your cassualty statistics on the Rumanians are way off! But was there really any glory in taking Budapest? The Hungarian units fighting there were made up primarily of MP's Secret Police, Arrow cross infantry which had almost no military training whatsoever, and young boys and old men and a few german units that had been picked over pretty well. One hungarian boy had 1 bullet, another 3, another 5, another 5 but he had no gun...like this boy:

Image

Do you call fighting against boys like this, that held you off for so long a victory???

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Post by Geppistoly Katona » 13 Mar 2002 23:43

how did i know that was coming...shist!!! Can someone help me figure this out, i just got it down over at the other forum, victor, could i possibly e-mail it too you and have you post it as i am lost once again?

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Post by Victor » 14 Mar 2002 19:52

one more thing, your cassualty statistics on the Rumanians are way off!

Your are right of course. There were 10,708 casualties, not 11,000 as I previously
said. Thank you for drawing my attention to it.

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Post by Geppistoly Katona » 14 Mar 2002 22:42

No still way off, 8,700 is more accurate, and the reason for this is, not very many of the Rumanian troops actually ingaged the enemy...

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Post by Andy H » 15 Mar 2002 21:29

Didn't the Romanians take some 6,500 POW's in the battle for Budapest :?:

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Post by Geppistoly Katona » 16 Mar 2002 02:54

No, absolutely not, they did no such thing...

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Victor
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Casualties

Post by Victor » 16 Mar 2002 15:09

No still way off, 8,700 is more accurate, and the reason for this is, not very many of the Rumanian troops actually ingaged the enemy...

Is this figure only for battles only within Budapest itself? The number I gave represents the casualties the 7th Corps suffered during Operation "Budapest&#", which started 30 October 1944. So the difference could be the casualties suffered during the approach on the city from the Alpar-Ujkecske line.
The fact that not many Romanian troops engaged the enemy is not exactly true. All 3 divisions (2, 19 infantry and 9 cavalry) of the corps fought side by side in Budapest. They advanced 10 km in 15 days of house-to-house combat.
Last edited by Victor on 24 Mar 2002 12:14, edited 1 time in total.

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