Romania and the Vienna Award (continuation)

MagyarCrusader · Post by **MagyarCrusader** » 27 Mar 2002 08:34

You need to find something better to do with your time.

Let's keep it up, they won't last long!

This is a game to you?

MagyarCrusader · Post by **MagyarCrusader** » 28 Mar 2002 07:42

OK I understand now!

Those who champion for human rights and truth are considered rude extremists while people who makes comments such as "We should have annexed Hungary and given the future Chancellor Hitler a lesson what to do in his future occupation of Poland." or like Cezarprimo can call another country "a garbagebucket of history" are considered the norm....

I am not surprised. What else should I expect from a forum dedicated to the Nazis.

Rommel · Post by **Rommel** » 29 Mar 2002 02:40

let s all cool it off.Post all replies in the new thread.As for you MagyarCrusader I have some personal opinions which I will post there or I will sent a pm.Thanks

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » 29 Mar 2002 11:14

I've moved the posts on 1919 to a separare thread and also deleted a bunch of off topic posts in this thread.

/Marcus

Birgitte Heuschkel · Post by **Birgitte Heuschkel** » 29 Mar 2002 12:32

MagyarCrusader wrote:I am not surprised. What else should I expect from a forum dedicated to the Nazis.

A display of dark humor, sometimes too dark to be funny, as well as mutual respect, dedicated research, unusual sources, inside views, and general chitchat. At least that's what I'm expecting. The occasional flame and neo-nazi drivel is the price.

Cezarprimo · Post by **Cezarprimo** » 02 Apr 2002 09:18

OK, what about my question in the "The story..." post ? Can someone bring some light into that ?

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 03 Apr 2002 20:03

The 4th Army was retreated back to Romania after Odessa was occupoed on 16 October. On the front remained only the Mountain and Cavalry Corps. These were joined during the winter of 1941/42 by the 6th Corps.
And then...

It's easier if you would read about the campaigns on my site.

Cezarprimo · Post by **Cezarprimo** » 05 Apr 2002 09:33

I have already been on your site Victor (on the one you are puting a link in this forum), and I found it pretty nice. However, I would be interested in the politics behind the facts, and not in pure facts...

Best regards.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 07 Apr 2002 12:50

There were no political reasons behind this. There were only reinforcements sent to the 4th Army

Cezarprimo · Post by **Cezarprimo** » 16 Apr 2002 09:47

I wanted to start a discussion about Romania's war in the east and how it was related to the Transylvanian problem. That's why I've asked about the number of romanian troops on the eastern front

My impresion was that, after taking back Bessarabia, Romania, decreased its participation in the war on Germany's side, as it has seen its objectives in the est accomplished, only to increase this participation a few month after, in order to gain Germany's favor in the Transylvanian problem. I belive that at that time Romania's lidership was convinced of a german victory and saw Germany as the only viable partner.

What did it do when it became clear that Germany can not win the war ?

Regards

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 28 Apr 2002 14:45

Cezarprimo wrote:

What did it do when it became clear that Germany can not win the war ?

In a report sent to Washington on 15 November 1941, Mott Gunther, the American ambassador in Bucharest, says that a “friend” that supplies him with information about the marshal met him a few days before. He found him in a pretty good physical condition, but worried about the future. Antonescu said that he knows that Germany will eventually lose the war, but he has to go on with it, because he has no alternative. He also praised the Russian soldier, equipment and organization and said that if the SU will win the war it would dominate the world. [Antonescu cound’t have imagined the militarization of the US, which blocked the Soviet world domination; he was partially right: the SU dominated a big part of the world for 45 years…]

After the meeting with Hitler on 6 October 1942, on the way home, he reportedly said that:“Germany lost the war. We must concentrate not to loose ours.”

Cezarprimo wrote:

My impresion was that, after taking back Bessarabia, Romania, decreased its participation in the war on Germany's side, as it has seen its objectives in the est accomplished, only to increase this participation a few month after, in order to gain Germany's favor in the Transylvanian problem.

The number of troops didn’t decrease significantly. It was only the course of operations.
Antonescu brought up the Transylvanian problem on each meeting with Hitler, but as we know he didn’t achieve anything.

Maresal-06 · Post by **Maresal-06** » 02 Jul 2002 19:34

The Vienna Award was unfortunately a necessity... Romania did not have the choice, and Germany too. The German-Soviet "friendship" was just an hallucination; on the new Romanian-Soviet boundary (on the Pruth, after SU occupied Bessarabia and Northern Bucovina), the Reds were concentrating a huge force. The Romanian frontier guards reported Soviet skirmishes and provocations on Romanian territory, and SU was wayting the results of the Diktat. The Reds would have been pleased with a Romanian resistance; what we less know is the secret treaty between Hungary, USSR and Bulgaria. In this protocols was written: if Romania chooses resistance, then, Soviet Union will attack in the East and occupy the rest of Moldavia until the Carpathians. Hungary will attack in the West and occupy entire Transylvania, and finnaly Bulgaria will occupy all Dobrogea. The Romanian Army was not ready to face this kind of coalition, and Hitler was right when he declared that Germany will not come to rescue Romania... Stalin knew from the beginning that Hitler wanted to invade SU. By occupiyng Romania and the oil fields of Ploesti and Campina, Stalin could now be sure of a final victory against the Reich, and Europe. So the Vienna Diktat was a temporary necessity, to prevail a Soviet invasion of Romania, the Balkans and Europe.

For those who didn't knew about Stalin's preparations to WAR, I can tell you all that the "D" day for "OPERATION TEMPEST" was on 6th July 1941. 6th July was a Sunday, and Stalin liked surprise attacks. Stalin was not ready for a defensive war, but for an offensive; his BTs and KV's weren't fitted for a defensive war in Russia, but for an invasion of Europe by the German roads (who were reputed for their quality). The Reds had at their disposal 24,000 tanks, and the Germans, maybe 4,000, who were in their majority light tanks. The "heaviest" German tank was the Panzer IV, but it was just weak versus the Soviet monsters (KV-1 AND KV-2), or even against the T-34 M1940...

The operation "Barbarossa" was a suicidal preventive attack against the SOVIET MENACE. On 22th June, Churchill said: "IT'S THE MOST BEAUTIFUL DAY OF MY LIFE!"... !!!

Ovidius · Post by **Ovidius** » 02 Jul 2002 20:04

Maresal-06 wrote:The Vienna Award was unfortunately a necessity... Romania did not have the choice, and Germany too. The German-Soviet "friendship" was just an hallucination; on the new Romanian-Soviet boundary (on the Pruth, after SU occupied Bessarabia and Northern Bucovina), the Reds were concentrating a huge force. The Romanian frontier guards reported Soviet skirmishes and provocations on Romanian territory, and SU was wayting the results of the Diktat. The Reds would have been pleased with a Romanian resistance; what we less know is the secret treaty between Hungary, USSR and Bulgaria. In this protocols was written: if Romania chooses resistance, then, Soviet Union will attack in the East and occupy the rest of Moldavia until the Carpathians. Hungary will attack in the West and occupy entire Transylvania, and finnaly Bulgaria will occupy all Dobrogea. The Romanian Army was not ready to face this kind of coalition, and Hitler was right when he declared that Germany will not come to rescue Romania... Stalin knew from the beginning that Hitler wanted to invade SU. By occupiyng Romania and the oil fields of Ploesti and Campina, Stalin could now be sure of a final victory against the Reich, and Europe. So the Vienna Diktat was a temporary necessity, to prevail a Soviet invasion of Romania, the Balkans and Europe.

VERY interesting.

So that Hitler(who did not want the Hungarian takeover of Transylvania, fact proved by the fact that he asked them to reduce their claims from 60,000 sq km to just over 43,000 sq km) had to "throw this bone in the mouth of the wolf" to earn some more time!

What is the source of the info about the Soviet-Magyar-Bulgarian treaty?

Bulgaria had been a Soviet foothold during the entirety of the Communist period, but Hungary? What did they have to offer in exchange for a Soviet alliance?

~Regards,

Ovidius

Mait · Post by **Mait** » 02 Jul 2002 22:39

It is a topic much speculated. I tend to agree with the theory, that Soviets were planning a major war against Europe. I have read about BT as attack weapon, but so were the majority of Soviet light bombers. I have a book written by a young Estonian historian about it somewhere around. I try to find it and post little bit more information he has digged out.

The data about Soviet war industry and developement plans about it seem to support the theory of nation preparing for MAJOR war. Well the historical fact is that the (re)armament was done in great haste and major scale, but the Stalin was surprised of German attack. So I think that if the armament was done for a defensive war with Germany forseen, there should not have been so great surprise and shock about invasion. And all these armies on the borders?

Best Regards,

Mait.

Victor · Post by **Victor** » 03 Jul 2002 09:41

Welcome to the forum Maresal!

Marcus, looks like the Romanian comunity on the Thirdreich forum is growing increasingly stronger. So far we are about 11-12!

I never heard of an aliance between Hungary-Russia and Bulgaria in 1940. And I don't think that the SU would have needed such an alliance, since it was powerful enough to take the whole of Romania alone.

Axis History Forum

Romania and the Vienna Award (continuation)

Getting back

Re to the story...

Vienna Award -> Necessity

Re: Vienna Award -> Necessity

About Barbarossa and Soviet threat...