Violent inter-Axis incidents

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dragos03
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Violent inter-Axis incidents

Postby dragos03 » 10 Jul 2008 11:31

The following violent incident is described in the memoirs of a Romanian veteran (Stefan Carlan - "Pastrati-mi amintirile!").

Carlan was a radio operator attached to the 10th Romanian Infantry Division fighting in Crimea in April 1944. After the Soviets broke the front in the sector of this unit, all the Axis units in Crimea were retrating towards Sevastopol. On 10 April, two Romanian cars were going towards Simferopol when they met two German NCO's on the road, one of them wounded. The Germans signalled the cars to stop and take them on board. The cars stopped, but they needed some 15 meters to do so, being heavily loaded. The wounded German came screaming to the first car, and shot the driver (who's name was Georgescu). The other Romanian in the car (Garnita) then disarmed the German NCO. At this point, a German vehicle with 11 soldiers came on the road and took on board Georgescu, the German NCO and another Romanian, saying that they will take Georgescu to a hospital and deliver the NCO to the military police.

Upon reaching the village of Boghemka, the Romanian soldier in the German car told the others that Georgescu died from his wound. At this point, the other Germans tried to run with the car, in order not to deliver the NCO that shot him to the police. They were stopped right away by a Romanian military police patrol that opened fire on their car, then all the Germans were disarmed and taken to the pretor of the 10th Romanian Division (the head of the division's military police unit), a major that happened to be in the village. The pretor released the other Germans, keeping only the murderer. He then called Garnita and told him to execute the German, in order to avenge his dead friend. Garnita refused, then the major shot the German NCO himself. Both Georgescu and the German were then buried next to each other in the village. The major then gathered the Romanian units in the village and ordered them to fire at will in any Germans that try to stop their cars or take their equipment.

Ardee
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Re: Violent inter-Axis incidents

Postby Ardee » 21 Jul 2008 16:45

I'm not sure how you are defining incidents, but I'm thinking of some things that may have happened at a larger scale. I've read in several places there were several border incidents/skirmishes between Axis Romanian forces and the Hungarians -- but I've never come across any details. Does anyone know more about these -- esp. how "big" they got?

dragos03
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Re: Violent inter-Axis incidents

Postby dragos03 » 22 Jul 2008 16:04

The temporary Romanian-Hunganian border was indeed like the one between two enemy states during the war. Incidents were frequent: attacks on border posts, incursions, taking of prisoners, etc. These did not lead to any larger-scale clashes, as far as I know.

However, the stories about clashes between Romanian and Hungarian troops on the Eastern Front are nothing but a myth.

Ardee
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Re: Violent inter-Axis incidents

Postby Ardee » 22 Jul 2008 17:33

However, the stories about clashes between Romanian and Hungarian troops on the Eastern Front are nothing but a myth.


I am assuming you mean pre-August 1944 -- although, come to think of it, I have read that the Axis Hungarians and Allied Romanians went after each other with much more zest than either had demonstrated vs the USSR - but I've never read of a description of an actual incident. At the risk of deviating from the thread topic slightly - can anybody refer me to a source and/or make a general comment about specific battles they fought against each other?

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Walhalla
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Re: Violent inter-Axis incidents

Postby Walhalla » 23 Jul 2008 02:58

Ardee wrote:
However, the stories about clashes between Romanian and Hungarian troops on the Eastern Front are nothing but a myth.


I am assuming you mean pre-August 1944 -- although, come to think of it, I have read that the Axis Hungarians and Allied Romanians went after each other with much more zest than either had demonstrated vs the USSR - but I've never read of a description of an actual incident. At the risk of deviating from the thread topic slightly - can anybody refer me to a source and/or make a general comment about specific battles they fought against each other?


To help somewhat with your request: Battle of Debrecen- Tisza River area

...By 10 October, Malinovsky's troops occupied several bridgeheads on the western bank of the Tisza River, and elements of the 46th Army and the 18th Tank Corps were driving on Kecskemet, only 45 miles (70 kilometers) from Budapest. Malinovsky, however had to redistribute some of these forces to support the advance of Pliyev's group on the other side of the Tisza. The remaining 2nd Ukrainian Front troops of this spearhead were attacked by the Hungarian cavalry and German anti-aircraft troops and forced to retreat to the Tisza on 11 October. The same day, Hungarian (1st Armored and 23rd Infantry Divisions) counterattacks against the 2nd Ukrainian Front's 243rd Rifle Division at the Mindszent bridgehead became so dire that the Romanian VII Corps was rushed to Mindszent to reinforce the bridgehead's defense.

Subsequently, the Romanian 2nd and 4th Infantry Divisions took over 2nd Ukrainian Front bridgeheads on the Tisza below Szolnok. The bridgehead of the 4th Division was attacked on 19 October by the Hungarian 1st Cavalry and 1st Infantry Divisions, which the 4th Division held back until hit on the right flank by the German 24th Panzer Division, 4th SS Panzergrenadier Division, and the 503rd Heavy Tank Battalion. The right flank of the Romanian 4th Division caved in and the German armor drove behind the division, cutting it off from the Tisza River and eventually forcing its surrender by 20 October. On 25 October, three Hungarian divisions (1st Cavalry, 1st Infantry and 20th Infantry) attacked the Romanian 2nd Division in its bridgehead. The Romanian 2nd Division panicked and pulled back across the Tisza River. This Hungarian success, however, was not repeated when a third assault was made during 26-29 October against the Romanian 19th Infantry Division's bridgehead at Alpar."

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Csaba Becze
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Re: Violent inter-Axis incidents

Postby Csaba Becze » 23 Jul 2008 09:17

There were many such incidents. Perhaps the first one was a border clash between Hungary and Slovakia in late March, 1939 (wrongly interpreted as 'war' in some sources). As for Slovaks, there was one interesting accident, when Jan Reznak deliberately attacked a Hungarian aircraft on 29 July, 1941 (the Hungarians tought, that it was a friendly fire accident, they didn't know, that it was a deliberate attack). But he was not the best marksman, so it was an ineffective 'attack'. I mentioned the details in this book from both sides:
http://www.konyvnet.hu/konyv.php?konyv_ ... aJ9L8qgOSf
BTW on the very same day, the Germans shot down a Hungarian Ju 86, but it was a friendly fire accident, they tought, that it is Soviet. There were high number of friendly fire accidents also (not deliberate attacks)

As for Hungarians-Romanians: there were numerous border incidents but no real fight till August, 1944. There is a reminescenfe from freighter Budapest, which was used intensively in the Black Sea that once Romanians fired at them from the shore, after they noticed the Hungarian flag (with small arms and without effect).

I mentioned here formerly in details an incident, when Germans killed Hungarian Jew Labour Workers.

Ardee
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Re: Violent inter-Axis incidents

Postby Ardee » 23 Jul 2008 16:57

Thanks for the replies! It's great how folks share knowledge here... Csaba Becze, are there any plans for English editions of your book(s)?

Orlov
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Re: Violent inter-Axis incidents

Postby Orlov » 24 Jul 2008 14:01

Hello,
Four days after the launching Operation Barbarossa was the air raid against Hungarian town Kassa (now Slovakian Kosice). In the early afternoon of 26 June, 1941 unidentified aircrafts strafed targets and bombed this provisional center of Kassa. Since the incident climaxed a series of developments which led to the decision od the Hungarian government to join to German invasion of the Soviet Union.

The facts.
1. A Hungarian sources reported seeing 3-4 enemy aircraft.
2. A bomb that did not detonate was found and was a Russian make.

In 90' Polish historian Adam Glass proved that they had Romanian marking and were the bomber PZL 37 Łoś (Elk). At that time tensions were high between Romania and Hungary. Romania was committed to Op. Barbarossa from the beginning and put in the 2nd most troops on the Eastern Front.
"Elks" were evacuated to Romania after German-Polish war 1939 and were requisition by Romanian Air Force. Germany was asking Ion Antonescu of provoked Hungarian to war against USSR. This imaginary air raid of Soviet bombers was action of Romanian bombers without national markings.

Source: "New Twist to an Old Riddle: The Bombing of Kassa (Kosice), June 26, 1941" by N. F. Dreisziger [in:] The Journal of Modern History, Vol. 44, No. 2 (Jun., 1972), pp. 232-242
I didn't remember title of article of A. Glass presented in 1991 or 1992 in Polish magazine "Lotnictwo"

ORLOV
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dragos03
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Re: Violent inter-Axis incidents

Postby dragos03 » 24 Jul 2008 14:18

As far as I know, there is no evidence to support the above theory. And it makes no sense, Romania had no interest to bring Hungary into the war, quite the opposite. Antonescu would not have helped Hitler with such a plan.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Violent inter-Axis incidents

Postby Sid Guttridge » 24 Jul 2008 14:31

Hi Csaba,

The March 1939 incident was undoubtedly "war".

Hungary had received a measure of recognition within the Axis for its occupation of Ruthenia that month, but its attack into eastern Slovakia was a unilateral act that the Slovaks met by mobilising troops and counter-attacking.

It may not have lasted long, but it involved aircraft, armour and artillery on both sides.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Csaba Becze
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Re: Violent inter-Axis incidents

Postby Csaba Becze » 24 Jul 2008 16:48

Bombing of Kassa was not a Romanian action and the border conflict was not "war". You should know very well the history of these countries and their political situation at that time before post such statements. I written my opinion about both Kassa and March, 1939 many times, you can find them, if you wish (I written even a book about that "war")

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Hauptmann Kloss
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Re: Violent inter-Axis incidents

Postby Hauptmann Kloss » 24 Jul 2008 19:53

Orlov wrote:...

In 90' Polish historian Adam Glass proved that they had Romanian marking and were the bomber PZL 37 Łoś (Elk). At that time tensions were high between Romania and Hungary. Romania was committed to Op. Barbarossa from the beginning and put in the 2nd most troops on the Eastern Front.
"Elks" were evacuated to Romania ....



"Elk"? I do not know where translation come from, but "Los" in Polish translate to Moose in English.
***

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Walhalla
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Re: Violent inter-Axis incidents

Postby Walhalla » 25 Jul 2008 01:01

Sid Guttridge wrote:Hi Csaba,

The March 1939 incident was undoubtedly "war".

Hungary had received a measure of recognition within the Axis for its occupation of Ruthenia that month, but its attack into eastern Slovakia was a unilateral act that the Slovaks met by mobilising troops and counter-attacking.

It may not have lasted long, but it involved aircraft, armour and artillery on both sides.

Cheers,

Sid.


I disagree

The Hungarian troops, were going to liberate as much territory as possible (that was unjustly taken by the Trianon treaty) before Germany signs a pact with Slovakia that was basically a "Guarantee of Independance"

The Hungarian troops advanced. AND WERE NOT provoking hostilities.
They marched as far as possible without inducing Slovakian hostilities. When the Hungarians ran into Czech/Slovakian troops (who opened fire) they stopped and dug in.
The Czech/Slovakians organized a counterattack, which ran headlong into Hungarian fieldartillery fire and was halted.

Thats how the " war " ended. THe Czech/Slovaks gave up after a failed counterattack attempt.
The Hungarians DID not continue to advance and the Germans signed the "guarantee of Independence"



Regards,
and have a good day!

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Violent inter-Axis incidents

Postby Sid Guttridge » 25 Jul 2008 12:23

Hi Walhalla,

Hungarian actions in March 1939 were nothing to do with "liberation".

In early October 1938 Hungary had recovered all the areas of Slovakia and Ruthenia where Hungarians were a majority. Thus the ethnically unfair aspects of the Trianon Treaty had already been resolved.

The Hungarian occupations of March 1939 were naked land grabs of territories in Ruthenia and eastern Slovakia where non-Hungarians, almost all Ruthenian/Ukrainians, were clear majorities.

In both cases the Hungarians struck immediately after Germany had finally dismantled the Czecho-Slovak state but before the Ruthenes and Slovaks had had a chance to take over local defence from the withdrawing Czecho-Slovak Army. In both cases the Hungarians were met by armed resistance - by the Sic Guard outside Khost in Ruthenia, and by the embryonic, week-old, Slovak Army and, belatedly, some Hlinka Guards.

In both cases Hungary used aircraft, armour, mechanised units, artillery, infantry and cavalry. In both cases the Ruthenes and Slovaks resisted with whatever they could get off the disintegrating Czecho-Slovak Army. In the Sic Guard case this was nothing heavier than heavy machine guns, but the Slovaks managed to deploy almost the same range of weaponry that the Hungarians were using.

Some sources claim up to 600 Sic Guard died fighting Hungarian armoured units, although this seems to me probably to be a considerable exaggeration. The Slovaks lost several armoured vehicles and aircraft in combat. The Hungarian invasions of March 1939 involved every arm of service available to them and were resisted using every arm of service available to their opponents. Brief though the fighting was, it was definitely war.

The Hungarian advance was in itself an act of hostility. In the Slovak case the "non-provocative" Hungarian advance included capturing a Slovak barracks near the border by surprise and taking all its occupants prisoner!

The war ended because Germany deserted the Ruthenians and put pressure on both the Hungarians and Slovaks to stop.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: "Łoś" above Kassa

Postby Orlov » 25 Jul 2008 13:15

dragos03 wrote:As far as I know, there is no evidence to support the above theory. And it makes no sense, Romania had no interest to bring Hungary into the war, quite the opposite. Antonescu would not have helped Hitler with such a plan.

I will looking for this article written by A. Glass about his theory of "Romanian" attack of Kassa. In my opinion hostile relationship between Romania and Hungary have sense in diabolic plan of air raid against enemy town (especially after 2nd Vienna Arbitrage). And it makes sense, Romania and Antonescu would have helped Hitler with such an assistance.
Romania have fought since 22 June, 1941, but Hungary didn't interest in fighting on Eastern Front.
And we must remember about similar Soviet provocation in case of Finland (bombing main cities and town, after Fall Barbarossa).
And PZL 37 "Moose" or "Elk" were untypical aircraft for Hungarian AA observers. Evidently Slovak SB-2 (Avia B-71) were better option to Kassa incident, but Germany's choice was a Romanian ARR.
csaba... wrote:Bombing of Kassa was not a Romanian action and the border conflict was not "war". You should know very well the history of these countries and their political situation at that time before post such statements. I written my opinion about both Kassa and March, 1939 many times, you can find them, if you wish (I written even a book about that "war")

Of course Bombing of Kassa was not "war", but it was hostile incident between two neighbours. I know history of Romania and Hungary and will defence my opinion and discovery of polish historian A. Glass, who interested history of ex-Polish bombers in Romanian service. Hostile attitudes of R. & H. is correct statement, but without archive research. But i will check Polish monography of PZL 37 "Los", where was this information about use ex-Polish bomber against Hungarian town.

bestreg
Orlov


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