Violent inter-Axis incidents

[DenesBernad]

DenesBernad and Csaba Becze,

I hope that you leave all personal controversies outside the forum and conduct the debates without personal attacks as expected here.

I agree, Mr. Ammentorp (I actually initiated an off-board contact to try to solve the issue via PM).

However, please distinguish between the person who initiated the personal attack (BTW, who is doing this not the first time), and who was at the receiving end. Otherwise it would be unfair. Thank you.

Dénes

[CB1]

Hi dragos03,

Regarding the non-existence of Hu-Ro incidents in the Eastern Front here is a couple of things.

I know of one violent type of action when a Hungarian ship bringing in supplies were fired upon from a Romanian MG nest. The Germans manning the on-board AA gun duly returned fire and silenced the attackers. I cannot give you exact reference due to the fact I do not know where I have put the book in question.

I know of two other incidents in 1942, less violent but alas, no reference either, comes from my grandfather's oral legacy. He served in a railroad/bridgebuilder company and they were busy restoring stuff in the Kuban area. In their vicinity the was a camp of a Ro unit having a bit of R&R.

The Hu liaison officer reported to the German HQ every morning. He used to ride a horse right through the Ro camp. One day he was returning late. He came back on foot. Ro soldiers took away his horse. What an insult! The Hu CO quickly collected a dozen of well-built Hu soldiers (my grandfather one of them) and mounted an MG on their truck and went to the Ro camp. As the Ro troops were resting and relaxing they cought them by suprise. The horse was quickly recoverd.

On an other occasion Ro troops "found" a cow somewhere. What an insult! During the night Hu troops also "found" a cow while Ro simultaneously "lost" theirs. The cow was quickly processed that night, the remains dug and the meat cooked for breakfast.

In the morning a car was approaching from the Ro camp. Two officers came and asked about the cow. The Hu CO said there was no cow in the Hu camp. The Ro officers accused the Hu soldiers with theft. The Hu CO said it was very sad that they did not trust the word of a Royal Hungarian officer buit they were allowed to inspect the camp and take any cow they found. After fininshing the inspection (no cow was found) the Hu CO invited them for breakfast. The Ro officers realized where their cow was and left rather annoyed.

Bye,
Krisz

[dragos03]

Hi Krisz,

No doubt there were a few incidents like that. However, nothing really serious happened. Some books claim that Romanian and Hungarian troops were never allowed to come in contact on the Eastern Frost, in order to avoid a clash. That is surely a myth. The two armies came in contact, yet there was no such clash.

There was even limited cooperation, in some cases. For example, in 1941, Romanian artillery was asked to fire in support of a neighbouring Hungarian unit, which was under attack. Also, Hungarian ships in the Black Sea were regularly escorted by the Romanian Black Sea Navy.

[Sid Guttridge]

Hi Krisz,

The Kuban?

There were certainly Romanian and Slovak troops in the Kuban, but isn't it rather "out of area" for Hungarians?

Cheers,

Sid.

[CB1]

Hi Sid,

Certainly not for railroad/bridge builder companies. They were not part of 2HuArmy but two independent Btn HQs. My granddad served with the 108th Coy and he said he saw the Ararat in the distance. They were evacuated via Kerch. He had photos bearing names like 'Graktowy', 'Taman', 'Bjeloretsenskaja', 'Samarsoje' and 'Rostow' on their backs showing ruined bridges and I can recognize my grandfather on some of them.

Ah, and to the Slovak/Ruthen issue: check this site http://www.akm.externet.hu/rendjel/adatok/mave.htm
The first two golden bravery medals were awarded to soldiers who died during fending off a Czech attack on Munkács. When you talk about Ruthenia you have to include Poland and Romania as well. Poland and Hungary cooperated (Yeah, ever wondered why the Rongyos units headed for that country?) in destabilizng Czecho-Slovakia (Polish interest in Teschen). The action in Ruthenia was planned for the Autumn of 1938 but German and Italian diplomacy stopped it before it began. The Polish were annoyed. Furthermore, most likely there was a gentlemen's agreement between Hu and Ro brokered by Poland so Hu takes Ruthenia Ro stays inactive but receives a certain sector along the border (Ro villages were there or the railroad, I do not remember). Hu broke that and gave nothing to Ro in the end. But the most interesting part is that there is evidence that Tiso made an agreement in 1938 in Budapest that Slovakia is willing to join Hungary in return for a certain level of autonomy (maybe it was not too serious) so with clever diplomacy a very satisfying settlement could have been worked out between Hu and Slovakia and much better relationship could have been achieved than with "mala vojna".

Hi dragos03,

One other non-violent story of "contact", this comes from my friend's grandfather. He commanded a small unit equipped with Csaba armored cars. It was the Summer of 1941. They stopped at a well to have some water. Suddenly a Ro Cav unit arrived and they "jumped the queue" so to say. The granddad tried to persuade them to fall back to the end of the line. They did not understand and nothing happened. Then he drew his pistol and fired a warning shot. The Ro soldiers mounted their horses and one of them called out with perfect Hu pronunciation "Megállj, kurva magyar, eszem én még gulyást Pesten!" Then they left.

I am afraid he was not able to keep his promise in the end because by the time he might have arrived at Budapest there was no meat left in the city to cook that goulash. Unless of course he brought the ingredients (why not, you can make goulash out of beans, it is called "babgulyás"

As for cooperation it is only naval I know of. On one occasion a Hu freighter was hit by a mine. The Ro escort immediately rushed to her rescue, only to hit another mine, while the other Hu cargo ship kept some distance, her master being an old KuK Navy veteran suspecting that the other freighter was hit by <chain mine> or <cluster mine> so in the end they had to help out both stricken ships. And of course Hu merchant marine took part in the evacuation of Ro troops as well.

Oh, and I seem to remember one frontierguard officer striking a deal with his Ro counterpart, which made a lot of sense. They agreed not to patrol their section of the border in Transylvania simultaneously, so trigger-happy soldiers did not have a target to fire at on the other side of the border.

Bye,
Krisz

[DenesBernad]

The following number of armed ground incidents on the Hungarian-Rumanian border in Transylvania (all reportedly provoked by the Hungarians) were officially recorded by the Rumanian side, between 22 June 1941-20 Febr. 1944:
14 in 1941
36 in 1942
50 in 1943
3 in the first two months of 1944.

The following number of air incursions were reported by the Rumanian side in the same time period:
4 in 1941
27 in 1942
50 in 1943
5 in the first two months of 1944.

[Source: an unpublished report compiled by the Military Cabinet of Marshal Antonescu, in Febr. 1944]

Dénes

[Victor]

Hi Krisz,

There were cases of cooperation also between land forces. From this older topic: http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=74502

In March 1942, when the Romanian Skier Detachment of col. Ioan Rotta had under its command a Hungarian cavalry squadron in the fights on the Bereka Valley, 50 km south of Kharkov.

On 27 August 1941, also in the Ukraine, in the Budy area (between the Bug and Donetsk Rivers), where the 2nd Hungarian Motorized Rifle Brigade, which was deployed near the 1st and 2nd Squadrons of the 9th Rosiori Regiment, requested the help of Romanian artillery around 1600 hours, because it was under attack by a Soviet regiment in the Budy area.

[Orlov]

August 1942. Frozen relationship between Italy (Albania) and Bulgaria at their new frontier in Vardar Macedonia. 200 Albanian soldiers supported by Italian battalion, atacked position of Bulgarian 14. Inf. Div. Effect was several dead and wounded rannych for both sides. After German mediation fightning was stopped.
for: BULGARIA DURING THE SECOND WORLD WAR. By Marshall Lee Miller. Stanford University Press, 1975
bestreg
Orlov

[Askold]

What you believe is one thing, what happened in fact is one another. In Ruthenia, there were no 'Ukrainians' at all. Rusyns are not Ukrainians in any way, they are (but now I must say: they were) an independent ethnic group, who were always loyal to Hungarians.

- Where does such BS comes from? Hungarians attacked Carpatho-Ukraine. The population although historically reffered as rysyn, in fact considered themselves as Ukrainians (just to clear the misconception - ALL inhabitants of Western Ukraine prior WWI were called rysyns, its just an old name, tracing back to Ruthenia - Red Rus) This can be easily seen in the fact that the country was called Carpatho-UKRAINE, had Trident as coat of arms and used blue and yellow flag.

[Mimo]

no doubt, romanians lacked the hunting&fishing talents hungarian soldiers had. as for my grandfathers, who both fought in east, they never encountered an hungarian soldier, never heard about hungarians on eastern front; more: one didn't knew hungarians fought on east front.

[KACKO]

What you believe is one thing, what happened in fact is one another. In Ruthenia, there were no 'Ukrainians' at all. Rusyns are not Ukrainians in any way, they are (but now I must say: they were) an independent ethnic group, who were always loyal to Hungarians.

Some of these Rusyns think of themselves as Ukrainians and some still strongly request to be considered for Rusyns.
Loyal? So that's why so many of them ran before 1941 across the border to USSR?
And that's why they made huge part of Czechoslovak army in USSR. Only pity think on all this is Benes's betrayal of this people after war.

Ruthenia was gifted to Czechoslovakia by the Antant after WwI only to separate Hungary from Poland. That's why Hungary captured it again in March, 1939

When Czechoslovak official found out what they get into with Ruthenia after 1918, they wanted no part of it. But it was too late.

As for Slovakia and that border incident. I'm afraid, you don't know the ethnic boundary in that area (not in 1918 or 1938 or you don't know the Hodza-Bartha line, signed and accepted by Slovaks, since most of these territories ar BEHIND of that lince since most of these villages - Szobránc, Alsóhalas, Bunkós had ethnic Hungarian majority at that time)

Actually I think, you don't know the ethnic boundary at given time. The lands where Hungarians were majority they already got in 1938, and even more (the villages and towns where Slovaks made majority).
Czechoslovak census from 30-ties show much different numbers then Hungarian from start of the century for teritories grabbed in 1939 in Slovakia. We can not agree on which one is right of course. There is sure one think which could be proclaimed as a cheating in Czechoslovak census - possibility for Jews in region speaking Hungarian language to proclaim Jewish nationality. On the other hand, there were many things which were not "kosher" in Hungarian census.

Not now, of course, thanks to the intensive Slovakisation, the forced relocation of Hungarians (Czech and other territories - look for Ujfalusi and other pure Czech names in their football national team)

There for sure were pressure for Slovakization or resllovakization after WWII. but that more all less ended after communist get to power.
Slovaks in Hungary could probably only dream to have same level of schooling system as Hungarians had in prewar Czechoslovakia.
But then argue it would be better to make a list of schools for minorities and compare.
As to the forced relocation to Czech lands after WWII, that's unfortunately true and some other crimes on Hungarian minority too. (But what about killing Slovaks on occupied territories in 1938/39 by Hungarian police?)
On the other hand, what about Hunarization of Slovak names (and we can find many of them in todays Hungary too?
We probably can agree on one think, some Slovaks welcomed theirs Hungarization in A-H for better jobs and better status or just because of mixed marriages. And some were forced. Same can be said about Hungarians in Slovakia. i know many people from families where one of the parents was Hungarian and other Slovak. And some of them felt to be Slovaks and others Hungarians.
Of course there are other way how Hungarian name can be find in Czech republic (same as Czech in Hungary during A-H). Better and more prestige jobs in Prague for example, marriage after military service or University. And this was in Federative country as Czechoslovakia after 1969 was.
So take please into consideration also fact that many from Hungarians who become after 1918 citizens of Czechoslovakia were Hungarians only on the paper.

That particular military action was started to secure the railway line in the River Ung from west. There was no boundary formerly between Slovakia and Ruthenia and that particular railway line was near the border, in undefensible way.

I take that, but same way Czechoslovakia should refuse Vienna decission in 1938 becouse after cutting some parts of railways, it left east of the country as you said "in undefensible way". Actually that's why Slovak army also reacted so slowly in march 1939. No railways to area of fights.

If Hungary would do it or if they would do a war with Slovakia,

But there was a war.

they wouldn't attack them in the heaviest terrain from the worst direction.
There were far more easy ways to cut large parts from Slovakia.

Could agree with that, if Hungarians want to grab everything, they would probably attacked from more direction and mostly from south but very probably had not enough of power for that yet. And of course, what was left after Vienna 1938 were mostly mountains in Slovakia .

It was a hostile action, of course, but for mostly Hungarian inhabited villages

I disagree, I can say 99% +- of population from territories occupied in Slovakia in March 1939 were Slovak or Rusyns

and to prevent the simiar incidents, which happened after the First Vienna Award (there were many border incidents, high percent of them were provoked by Czechs and since the new borders were not defendably properly, sometimes these attacks and regular shootings to Hungarian territory caused losses)

Like fights with terrorists on Czechoslovak territory? Or murders of Czechoslovaks policemen by terrorist?
Or murder of Czechoslovak pilot over Czechoslovak territory in 1938 by man who should be tried for war crimes, certain Föhadnagy László Pongrácz?

If you want to hear about "naked grabs of territories" I suggest you to read some sources about Trianon.

Partially true and partially finally justice for some nations. Because on ethnically mixed territories there will be always somebody who will think of the present situation as unjust.

[KACKO]

And I would like to add:

I'm afraid, you don't know the ethnic boundary in that area (not in 1918 or 1938 or you don't know the Hodza-Bartha line, signed and accepted by Slovaks, since most of these territories ar BEHIND of that lince since most of these villages - Szobránc, Alsóhalas, Bunkós had ethnic Hungarian majority at that time)

You are mistaken, misleading or something else.
Even according to 1910 Hungarian census in all above mentioned towns and villages Slovaks were majority or in case of Sobrance (Szobrancz) they made more then 50% of the population.

1910 census: 1216 citizens, 577 Slovaks, 538 Hungarians.

I do not have Czechoslovak data from 20-ties and 30-ties on me, but if somebody is interested I can dig them out. For sure I can say that from these 538 Hungarians huge part used in Czechoslovak census as a nationality Jewish.
For velka Rybnica and Bunkovce (Alsóhalas, Bunkós). Even Hungarian 1910 census says that majority of the citizen were Slovaks.
And sources? Hungarian 1910 census but to make sure nobody will say I played with the data, I will use for citation Hungarian Wikipedia:
http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bunk%C3%B3s
http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Szobr%C3%A1nc
http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Als%C3%B3halas

[DenesBernad]

...murder of Czechoslovak pilot over Czechoslovak territory in 1938 by man who should be tried for war crimes, certain Föhadnagy László Pongrácz?

Kacko, it's not my intention to mix myself in the quarrel you have with Csaba. Therefore I will refrain answering some of the points you raised, which are only partially true.

Instead, I will focus on this sentence of yours, quoted above.
I assume you refer to a cross border incident that happened in October 1938, over the Slovak-Hungarian border area, involving Hungarian and Czechoslovak aircraft.
In that tense time period both Czechoslovak and Hungarian aircraft violated the other country's airspace. One of those days (possibly on the 15th) - according to Hungarian sources - a Czechoslovak airplane penetrated Hungarian airspace performing reconnaissance. It was spotted by a two-ship Hungarian fighter patrol and chased towards Czechoslovakian territory. The intruder was eventually caught and shot down by the mentioned Föhadnagy László Pongrácz, and crashed inside Czechoslovakia, about 12 km from the border, near the village of Boda.
If the details are correct, then I see no murder here, certainly no war crime.

From your wording I assume you know the story in a different way. If yes, let us know, please.

Dénes

[KACKO]

...murder of Czechoslovak pilot over Czechoslovak territory in 1938 by man who should be tried for war crimes, certain Föhadnagy László Pongrácz?

Kacko, it's not my intention to mix myself in the quarrel you have with Csaba. Therefore I will refrain answering some of the points you raised, which are only partially true.

Instead, I will focus on this sentence of yours, quoted above.
I assume you refer to a cross border incident that happened in October 1938, over the Slovak-Hungarian border area, involving Hungarian and Czechoslovak aircraft.
In that tense time period both Czechoslovak and Hungarian aircraft violated the other country's airspace. One of those days (possibly on the 15th) - according to Hungarian sources - a Czechoslovak airplane penetrated Hungarian airspace performing reconnaissance. It was spotted by a two-ship Hungarian fighter patrol and chased towards Czechoslovakian territory. The intruder was eventually caught and shot down by the mentioned Föhadnagy László Pongrácz, and crashed inside Czechoslovakia, about 12 km from the border, near the village of Boda.
If the details are correct, then I see no murder here, certainly no war crime.

From your wording I assume you know the story in a different way. If yes, let us know, please.

Dénes

I have no quarrel at all but Csaba was mistaken about the nationality of people living on territory occupied by Hungary in March 1939 even if not very just census from 1910 proved something else.
Plus he is mentioning wrongdoing of Czechoslovak side in years 1938/39 and after1945 but not mentioning at all murders of Czechoslovaks on Czechoslovak territory or wrong doings and murders of Slovaks by Hungarian police force and other paramilitary organization in years of occupation. He is speaking of Slovakization but at all not speaking of Magyarization in years 1938/45 in villages and towns with Slovak majority on territories occupied by Hungarians.
I know very well of wrongdoings done in Czechoslovakia after war when not only guilty of wrongdoings were prosecuted but also innocent. But when somebody says A he should also say B.
Back to your question:
About László Pongrácz (btw was he in relation with László Pongrácz (1824-1890), Hungarian revolutionary hero from 1948/49?) maybe my words were too strong but not even Csaba in our discussion years ago mentioned possibility of Czechoslovak S-328 getting over Hungarian territory. Anyway, Czechoslovak official version is this:

K tragické události však došlo 25. října 1938, kdy na našem území shazoval maďarský Junkers Ju-52/3m letáky za asistence dvou stíhacích Fiatů CR-32. Poté co Maďaři spatřili pod sebou čs. Letov Š-328-237 provádějící fotografování na něj por. Pongrácz třikrát zaútočil. Pilot Š-328 des. J. Kello s řozstříleným letounem nouzově přistál a vyvázl se zraněním, ale pozorovatel sv. asp. Jaromír Šotola v troskách zahynul. Por. Pongrácz byl za svůj zákeřný a protiprávní útok povýšen ...

Tanslation: Tragic incident occurred on October 25th 1938 when over our territory Hungarian Junkers Ju-52/3m was dropping propaganda leaflets under protection of two fighters Fiat CR-32. After Hungarians saw underneath Czechoslovak Letov Š-328 doing photo reco, Pongrácz 3 times attacked. Pilot Ján Kello with heavily damaged plane provided emergency landing and get out of the incident with injury but observer Jaromír Šotol died. Pongrácz was for his act promoted

.
So Czechoslovak story is much different from Hungarian. And attacking plane over territory of neighboring state in times of peace with killing it's crew is murder and should be tried as such. There is many documented cases of murders of Czechoslovak officials in 1938/39 when attacker was well know but escaped to Hungary and was tried after war.

Kacko, it's not my intention to mix myself in the quarrel you have with Csaba. Therefore I will refrain answering some of the points you raised, which are only partially true.

If something only partially true I will be more then happy to listen other side. In case I will have different opinion I will try to provide more details and sources.

[tigre]

Hello to all ; a little contribution...........................

Hungarian occupation after the First Vienna Award 1938!

For the First Vienna Award signed at the Belvedere Palace on November 2, 1938, Hungary received 11,925 km2 and a population of almost one million people, of which 86.5% were of Hungarian nationality. Just returned home Kosice, Roznava, Uzhgorod, Mukachevo, Berehovo, Rimaszombat, Érsekújvár, Komarno, Levice and Losonc as major cities.





Source: Magyar Királyi Honvédség gyorscsapatai 1938–1941. Kiss Gábor Ferenc.

Cheers. Raúl M .