Chetnicks and Ustaša colaboration

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Re: Chetnicks and Ustaša colaboration

#46

Post by G. Trifkovic » 15 Feb 2010, 02:31

Did NDH send ammo and guns to Chetniks? No.
Not quite true. Although the amounts certainly weren't big, some ammunition was delivered. One German report claims that
"Kovacevic [Dusan Kovacevic] has so far been given 8 crates of ammunition by the Croats. He gave 2 of them to Stupar-Bataillon, and gave the rest to the units engaged in combat."
Document states further that the wounded Kovacevic Chetniks were brought to hospital in Tuzla.

(718. Inf.Div., Abteilung Ic, Aussprache mit dem Cetnikführer Kovacevic, 16.1.1943; NAW, T315, Roll 2271, 001289).

NDH authorities extended the same courtesy to Kovacevic as they did to his wounded men: he was hospitalized in Tuzla in March 1943. (718. Inf.Div., Abteilung Ic, Lagebericht für die Zeit 17.3-26.3.1943; NAW, Ebd., 001189).

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Re: Chetnicks and Ustaša colaboration

#47

Post by G. Trifkovic » 15 Feb 2010, 21:51

Another two examples of NDH-Chetnik cooperation, from the same source (Intelligence section, 718. Infantry division):
"Croats have transported 1,000 Chetniks by train from Doboj to Petrovo selo (24 km ESE from Doboj) On October 1st, 1942."
(Lagebericht für die Zeit vom 21. Oktober- 6. November 1942; NAW, Ebd., 000122)

Radivoje Kerovic's Chetniks fought against the Partisans north-east of Tuzla in mid-October 1942;
"During this time, Kerovic has been supported by Croatian artillery on several occassions."
(718. Inf.Div., Abteilung Ic, Feindnachrichtenblatt Nr. 12, 16.11.1942; NAW, Ebd., 000139)

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Re: Chetnicks and Ustaša colaboration

#48

Post by Didov » 16 Feb 2010, 23:06

I was searching the net for signed agreements between chetniks and NDH but with no luck. If anyone has one please post them here.

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Re: Chetnicks and Ustaša colaboration

#49

Post by Didov » 26 Feb 2010, 21:03

Ustasha - Chetnik collaboration was never brought to conclusion. Any conclusion.
In a political stance - of course, they both had completely opposing goals. On the field though, there are many joint anti-partisan operations - chetnik side usually controlled by Germans (Battle for Kinin for example).
Can you please provide us a single joined action against partisans.
You mentioned Knin wich is very interesting because many Ustasha soldiers actually defect to partisans side. Battle for Knin was not about fighting for the Germans. If look trough the papers Djuic escaped /abandoned Knin heading north where he managed to escape slaughtering in Slovenia and along the way Chetniks had fights with Ustasha. Battle for Knin was survival battle. Chetniks had two choices : 1. Surrender to partisans (and face certain death) or 2. Fight with Germans and hope to surrender to the Allies or at least to the Red Army. That battle had nothing to do with Axis plans it was a survival battle and Chetniks had no choice. Djuic was anti-communist and anti-fashist. Americans took him and his men under protection and he died in USA some years ago.

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Re: Chetnicks and Ustaša colaboration

#50

Post by gorskizdrug » 28 Feb 2010, 21:50

Didov wrote:Ustasha - Chetnik collaboration was never brought to conclusion. Any conclusion.
In a political stance - of course, they both had completely opposing goals. On the field though, there are many joint anti-partisan operations - chetnik side usually controlled by Germans (Battle for Kinin for example).
Can you please provide us a single joined action against partisans.
You mentioned Knin wich is very interesting because many Ustasha soldiers actually defect to partisans side. Battle for Knin was not about fighting for the Germans. If look trough the papers Djuic escaped /abandoned Knin heading north where he managed to escape slaughtering in Slovenia and along the way Chetniks had fights with Ustasha. Battle for Knin was survival battle. Chetniks had two choices : 1. Surrender to partisans (and face certain death) or 2. Fight with Germans and hope to surrender to the Allies or at least to the Red Army. That battle had nothing to do with Axis plans it was a survival battle and Chetniks had no choice. Djuic was anti-communist and anti-fashist. Americans took him and his men under protection and he died in USA some years ago.
Hi Didov!

Can you please share with us information about Ustasha soldiers defected to partisan side during the battle for Knin.
You used word "many" which means that maybe by you whole units changed sides during that battle.
It is very unlikely ( actually never heard of such a thing ) that Ustasha soldiers would defect to partisans in numbers.
Individual events probably happened like in every war, but for many very very known reasons this thing could not happen. Most of the members of this forum are familiar with those reasons, it is not necessary to repeat that.
Second thing is Djuic as anti-fashist! That he was anti-communist I agree, but to emphasize that he was anti-fashist after he got so much arms, ammunition, money, all kinds of military equipment, and above all protection from Italian second Army ( governed by MUSSOLINI AND FASCIST PARTY ). This is really Chetnic propaganda, you should be writing for news papers like for example " Glas Kanadskih Srba " ( The voice of Canadian Serbs ), and not here!
I am wondering, new host of this section is not reacting!

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Re: Chetnicks and Ustaša colaboration

#51

Post by G. Trifkovic » 01 Mar 2010, 02:50

Everybody please stick to the topic (Chetniks collaborating with Ustasa).

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Re: Chetnicks and Ustaša colaboration

#52

Post by G. Trifkovic » 01 Mar 2010, 13:58

A post by Kiseli, duplicate of which he already posted in "Draza Mihailovic" thread, has been removed.

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Re: Chetnicks and Ustaša colaboration

#53

Post by kiseli » 01 Mar 2010, 14:39

pavelic- mihailovic collaboration
For some months (1945), Mihailovic had been eager to cooperate with the forces of the Croatian puppet state "because the common goal was the annihilation of the Communists” (report of the German Plenipotentiary General in Croatia of Dec. 24, 1944, referring to the statement of one of his reliable agents. Microcopy No. T-311, Roll 196, Frame 427).
He sent his own emissary, a lawyer named Dr. Ranko Brasic, not only to Dr. Pavelic, the head of the Croatian puppet state, but also to the head of the Catholic Church in Croatia, Archbishop Alojzije Stepinac, and also to Dr. Macek, the head of the Croatian Peasant Party, who had passively opposed the quisling government.
Although Mihailovic stated at his trial that Brasic was only empowered to contact representatives of the Croatian Peasant Party, it has been well established that Brasic saw Pavelic and Stepinac as well. (The Trial of Draza Mihailovic, pp. 289-96, 453-56). It should be noted that as early as 1943 representatives of Mihailovic and of the Croatian Peasant Party (to which in time many of the Domobran officers gave their support) had some discussions about the future of Yugoslavia. No agreements were reached, however, because the CPP would not recognize Mihailovic as commander in chief of all Yugoslav forces including the Domobrans, and Mihailovic would not agree to disown the Chetnik groups that had been responsible for mass terror against the Croatian population..
Pavelic gave Brasic a supply of medicines for the treatment of typhus, which was widespread among the Chetnik troops in Bosnia. Besides Dr. Brasic:, Chetnik Major Zika Andric seems to have been a sort of steady contact with the Croatian military authorities in Zagreb during the last few months of the war. Finally, in mid-April 1945, Mihailovic sent General Svetomir Djukic supposedly on a mission to establish contact with the advancing Allied armies in northern Italy, but at the same time, while passing through Zagreb, to see Pavelic and discuss with him the possibility of cooperation between the Chetniks and Croatian troops and to obtain from him a series of concessions. To assist Djukic in his efforts in Zagreb, Mihailovic sent with him Vladimir Predavec, who had been for a long time a member of the Chetnik Central National Committee. Djukic, accompanied by Predavec and also Brasic and Andric, had two conferences with Pavelic, on April 17 and 22. In them, he asked for the following: release of a Chetnik hospital and its inmates captured by the Ustashas on Vucjak Mountain; release of 1,200 Serb civilians captured by the Ustashas and held in the town of gamac; medical supplies, ammunition, and food for the Chetniks; and free passage of Chetnik troops through Croatia on their way to Slovenia (but without Mihailovic, who would stay behind in the mountains). A series of articles by General Djukic about his mission to Pavelic appeared in the monthly newspaper Srpska zastava (Buenos Aires) between December 1954 and May 1955 under the title "From the Forests into Emigration." Djukic was answered by Ustasha General Luburic in an "Open Letter to the Serbian General Svetomir Djukic," in Drina (Madrid) in December 1955. Pavelic also, in 1949 , published his recollections of these conferences.

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Re: Chetnicks and Ustaša colaboration

#54

Post by gorskizdrug » 01 Mar 2010, 19:47

kiseli wrote:pavelic- mihailovic collaboration
For some months (1945), Mihailovic had been eager to cooperate with the forces of the Croatian puppet state "because the common goal was the annihilation of the Communists” (report of the German Plenipotentiary General in Croatia of Dec. 24, 1944, referring to the statement of one of his reliable agents. Microcopy No. T-311, Roll 196, Frame 427).
He sent his own emissary, a lawyer named Dr. Ranko Brasic, not only to Dr. Pavelic, the head of the Croatian puppet state, but also to the head of the Catholic Church in Croatia, Archbishop Alojzije Stepinac, and also to Dr. Macek, the head of the Croatian Peasant Party, who had passively opposed the quisling government.
Although Mihailovic stated at his trial that Brasic was only empowered to contact representatives of the Croatian Peasant Party, it has been well established that Brasic saw Pavelic and Stepinac as well. (The Trial of Draza Mihailovic, pp. 289-96, 453-56). It should be noted that as early as 1943 representatives of Mihailovic and of the Croatian Peasant Party (to which in time many of the Domobran officers gave their support) had some discussions about the future of Yugoslavia. No agreements were reached, however, because the CPP would not recognize Mihailovic as commander in chief of all Yugoslav forces including the Domobrans, and Mihailovic would not agree to disown the Chetnik groups that had been responsible for mass terror against the Croatian population..
Pavelic gave Brasic a supply of medicines for the treatment of typhus, which was widespread among the Chetnik troops in Bosnia. Besides Dr. Brasic:, Chetnik Major Zika Andric seems to have been a sort of steady contact with the Croatian military authorities in Zagreb during the last few months of the war. Finally, in mid-April 1945, Mihailovic sent General Svetomir Djukic supposedly on a mission to establish contact with the advancing Allied armies in northern Italy, but at the same time, while passing through Zagreb, to see Pavelic and discuss with him the possibility of cooperation between the Chetniks and Croatian troops and to obtain from him a series of concessions. To assist Djukic in his efforts in Zagreb, Mihailovic sent with him Vladimir Predavec, who had been for a long time a member of the Chetnik Central National Committee. Djukic, accompanied by Predavec and also Brasic and Andric, had two conferences with Pavelic, on April 17 and 22. In them, he asked for the following: release of a Chetnik hospital and its inmates captured by the Ustashas on Vucjak Mountain; release of 1,200 Serb civilians captured by the Ustashas and held in the town of gamac; medical supplies, ammunition, and food for the Chetniks; and free passage of Chetnik troops through Croatia on their way to Slovenia (but without Mihailovic, who would stay behind in the mountains). A series of articles by General Djukic about his mission to Pavelic appeared in the monthly newspaper Srpska zastava (Buenos Aires) between December 1954 and May 1955 under the title "From the Forests into Emigration." Djukic was answered by Ustasha General Luburic in an "Open Letter to the Serbian General Svetomir Djukic," in Drina (Madrid) in December 1955. Pavelic also, in 1949 , published his recollections of these conferences.
I am personally grateful to Mr. Kiseli for the info he provided us about this topic.
But can you please restrain of terms like " Croatian puppet state " or " quisling government ". First of all you dont have credibility to evaluate this things, second: this is not the place for such evaluations, third: it can provoke not needed dispute, and we are all here to exchange info, learn something we did not know before, with respect for each other believes!

Cheers

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Re: Chetnicks and Ustaša colaboration

#55

Post by kiseli » 01 Mar 2010, 20:42

history is about dates, numbers and facts.not about believing. croatian NDH has not been legitimate state according to international law. it was puppet state ( italian and german puppet) , and it was quisling government, same as nedic government, regarding way as came to power

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Re: Chetnicks and Ustaša colaboration

#56

Post by gorskizdrug » 02 Mar 2010, 00:00

kiseli wrote:history is about dates, numbers and facts.not about believing. croatian NDH has not been legitimate state according to international law. it was puppet state ( italian and german puppet) , and it was quisling government, same as nedic government, regarding way as came to power
Do we really have to go back on many previous topics on this web site.
NDH was recognized from countries under the flag of Axis powers, plus Switzerland, and de facto Vatican.
NDH had its currency, Army, embassies, post stamps. NDH was a member of all kinds of sport associations.
What do you want more?
Atrocities happened, Jasenovac happened, all this happened. Those things were committed by bad people indoctrinated by ideology not known to real Croatian patriots. ( funny thing but if one is from this parts of the earth, will have to notice that people who committed those atrocities are coming from same towns and villages like people who did similar things in the last war between Croatians and Serbs )!
Before couple of days there was an "anniversary" of Leipzig bombing. The reason well known today for this massacre was for British and Americans to show Stalin that they mean business in the future, "butcher" Harris was never prosecuted for that, neither British government . Maybe I went off the topic but I have to show to Mr. Kiseli that the world is not black and white, that good guys are not always good guys, but bad guys will always be bad guys!

By you Mr. Sauer ( it is "kiseli" ) more than half of this so called modern world are puppet states.
Would Israel be so arrogant with all its Arab neighbors without American help, does that make Israel a puppet state?
United Kingdom is second troops provider for the USA in Middle East, does that make them a puppet state?
If USA put sanctions on Canada for example, Canada would collapse, does that make Canada a puppet state?

I apologise again if I went off the topic!

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Re: Chetnicks and Ustaša colaboration

#57

Post by G. Trifkovic » 02 Mar 2010, 00:24

Let us get back to the topic- NDH and Chetniks. Thank you.

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