M06,
I think we both just proved that nothing can be judged in black and white, which, if I recall, is what Victor was saying earlier.
1. About the dossiers, I didn't realize you were speaking only of Ceausescu's years. Yes, you are partially right, the blatant terror eased very much starting with the late 60's and especially during the 70's. In terms of education possibilities, I accept your point (starting only in the late 60's). Still, in other ways, police dossiers prospered under Ceausescu just as much. Saying something perceived as anti-government would be imprinted forever in your case file. People needed authorization just to move from one city to another. How many tried to move to Bucharest from their village and were denied the chance? And who knows how many would have contributed so much more if they had been allowed to live in a city, instead of a small village? Basically, terror was replaced by corruption and bribes. I wouldn't say that's a better situation, just a "less evil" one. Nonetheless, you have a point - thanks for clarifying it.
2. In terms of Carol, just like Antonescu, once again nothing is black or white. I'll be the first to admit Antonescu was a great patriot and had great courage and military skills. He was also a brilliant man, but he did have a bad temper and took some decisions on impulse, decisions which may or may not have damaged the country (depending on who you ask).
So, of course we and history have the right to continue to judge both of them. My point was that Carol, as a former leader of the country, deserved a burial according to his position. Personally, I think Antonescu should also have an honorable and public burial, because he was also a leader of Romania (and probably one of the most important ones). I think both have earned that right........but aside from that, of course we should feel free to praise them or criticize them.
Thanks for your reply - this thread (and this forum) is very interesting and makes one ask himself many questions.
Mihai.
Romanian king's remains go home
Because their airplanes were good, maybe.johhny_bi wrote: Why to buy from a country that would delay the delivery because Carol was not a "favourite"
So no actual proof that the deliveries were delayed by the payments? I hope you will not mind I will stick to my source.johhny_bi wrote: You're right someone really made the payment
Remember that Romania would not be another Finland, but another Khalin-Gol. Even if we would have been better prepared, we would not have stood much chance. The Red Army was more experienced in the summer of 1940. Think only at how much air power they could concentrate.johhny_bi wrote: This is what I said ... We took advantage of nothing
Ah, Ok. I get it. But keep in mind what a shock the fall of France was to everyone. I know it was a mistake, but we had put very high hope in France and Britain as the powers that could enforce the Versailles Treaty.johhny_bi wrote: I was reffering to the German one...
Education is also important. It gives you more independence in your actions. This is why Antonescu was very much against German ethnics joining the Wehrmacht or Waffen SS. When he finally agreed he refused to allow the specialists to leave. The army needed them very much.johhny_bi wrote: I was not using the word as a negative term. IMO, I would have credited the intelligence rather than the education...
And the fact that we were denied the license did not "help" a little?johhny_bi wrote: The Hungarians had a plan and they have respected their program while we didn't... We made a good plan but a wrong and defectuos implementation...
"People needed authorization just to move from one city to another. How many tried to move to Bucharest from their village and were denied the chance? "
If memory serves me right, i belive you had to live at least 50 km away from the city you wanted to move to, otherwise the request was denied(my uncle was particulary in that situation during the late 70ies; he lived only 30km from TM and thus did not qualify). I belive this had something to do with emplyoment though. Since unemployment was illegal, the state was under obligation to find a job suited to your education. It's well known how low the pay was in the agricultural sector.
"Education is also important. It gives you more independence in your actions. This is why Antonescu was very much against German ethnics joining the Wehrmacht or Waffen SS. When he finally agreed he refused to allow the specialists to leave. The army needed them very much. "
Ethnic Germans joined the Waffen SS from spring 1941 on. Actually by that time they were not allowed to do so by the Romanian gov. but quite a few did nevertheless. My grandfather for example, was a cavalery soldier (hardly a specialst though) in the Romanian army by then. The entire squadron deserted and joined the 6th SS in Yugoslavia. Until mid 1942(but i could be wrong here, nobody i could ask is still alive) the police was after them. However, AFAIK ethnic Germans were not admitted to the Wehrmacht. Only "Reichsdeutsche" could. As i read in his letters home, my uncle volunteered for the Luftwaffe but was refused for not being "Reichsdeutscher". There might have been exceptions from the rule though but the overwhelming majority of ethnic Germans (around 50 000, from RO at least) joined the Waffen SS.
The above doesn't argue the point made about Antonescu, it's thought as a completion.
"Dosar my as*. Come on!!! Is this a Doina Cornea's type of joke or what?! You didnt need any "dosar" to go to university and be an engineer... That's propagandistic crap. A book was 5 LEI, and more than 90% of the people knew how to read and write. DO NOT LISTEN BRUCAN ANYMORE."
My mother was not admitted to the university until mid 60ies for being of "unhealthy origins" (father in the SS mother deported to the Soviet Union). Even in 1989 you would get into big trouble if you applied for a university and you wern't in the UTC.
If memory serves me right, i belive you had to live at least 50 km away from the city you wanted to move to, otherwise the request was denied(my uncle was particulary in that situation during the late 70ies; he lived only 30km from TM and thus did not qualify). I belive this had something to do with emplyoment though. Since unemployment was illegal, the state was under obligation to find a job suited to your education. It's well known how low the pay was in the agricultural sector.
"Education is also important. It gives you more independence in your actions. This is why Antonescu was very much against German ethnics joining the Wehrmacht or Waffen SS. When he finally agreed he refused to allow the specialists to leave. The army needed them very much. "
Ethnic Germans joined the Waffen SS from spring 1941 on. Actually by that time they were not allowed to do so by the Romanian gov. but quite a few did nevertheless. My grandfather for example, was a cavalery soldier (hardly a specialst though) in the Romanian army by then. The entire squadron deserted and joined the 6th SS in Yugoslavia. Until mid 1942(but i could be wrong here, nobody i could ask is still alive) the police was after them. However, AFAIK ethnic Germans were not admitted to the Wehrmacht. Only "Reichsdeutsche" could. As i read in his letters home, my uncle volunteered for the Luftwaffe but was refused for not being "Reichsdeutscher". There might have been exceptions from the rule though but the overwhelming majority of ethnic Germans (around 50 000, from RO at least) joined the Waffen SS.
The above doesn't argue the point made about Antonescu, it's thought as a completion.
"Dosar my as*. Come on!!! Is this a Doina Cornea's type of joke or what?! You didnt need any "dosar" to go to university and be an engineer... That's propagandistic crap. A book was 5 LEI, and more than 90% of the people knew how to read and write. DO NOT LISTEN BRUCAN ANYMORE."
My mother was not admitted to the university until mid 60ies for being of "unhealthy origins" (father in the SS mother deported to the Soviet Union). Even in 1989 you would get into big trouble if you applied for a university and you wern't in the UTC.
"People needed authorization just to move from one city to another. How many tried to move to Bucharest from their village and were denied the chance? "
If memory serves me right, i belive you had to live at least 50 km away from the city you wanted to move to, otherwise the request was denied(my uncle was particulary in that situation during the late 70ies; he lived only 30km from TM and thus did not qualify). I belive this had something to do with emplyoment though. Since unemployment was illegal, the state was under obligation to find a job suited to your education. It's well known how low the pay was in the agricultural sector.
"Education is also important. It gives you more independence in your actions. This is why Antonescu was very much against German ethnics joining the Wehrmacht or Waffen SS. When he finally agreed he refused to allow the specialists to leave. The army needed them very much. "
Ethnic Germans joined the Waffen SS from spring 1941 on. Actually by that time they were not allowed to do so by the Romanian gov. but quite a few did nevertheless. My grandfather for example, was a cavalery soldier (hardly a specialst though) in the Romanian army by then. The entire squadron deserted and joined the 6th SS in Yugoslavia. Until mid 1942(but i could be wrong here, nobody i could ask is still alive) the police was after them. However, AFAIK ethnic Germans were not admitted to the Wehrmacht. Only "Reichsdeutsche" could. As i read in his letters home, my uncle volunteered for the Luftwaffe but was refused for not being "Reichsdeutscher". There might have been exceptions from the rule though but the overwhelming majority of ethnic Germans (around 50 000, from RO at least) joined the Waffen SS.
The above doesn't argue the point made about Antonescu, it's thought as a completion.
"Dosar my as*. Come on!!! Is this a Doina Cornea's type of joke or what?! You didnt need any "dosar" to go to university and be an engineer... That's propagandistic crap. A book was 5 LEI, and more than 90% of the people knew how to read and write. DO NOT LISTEN BRUCAN ANYMORE."
My mother was not admitted to the university until mid 60ies for being of "unhealthy origins" (father in the SS mother deported to the Soviet Union). Even in 1989 you would get into big trouble if you applied for a university and you wern't in the UTC.
If memory serves me right, i belive you had to live at least 50 km away from the city you wanted to move to, otherwise the request was denied(my uncle was particulary in that situation during the late 70ies; he lived only 30km from TM and thus did not qualify). I belive this had something to do with emplyoment though. Since unemployment was illegal, the state was under obligation to find a job suited to your education. It's well known how low the pay was in the agricultural sector.
"Education is also important. It gives you more independence in your actions. This is why Antonescu was very much against German ethnics joining the Wehrmacht or Waffen SS. When he finally agreed he refused to allow the specialists to leave. The army needed them very much. "
Ethnic Germans joined the Waffen SS from spring 1941 on. Actually by that time they were not allowed to do so by the Romanian gov. but quite a few did nevertheless. My grandfather for example, was a cavalery soldier (hardly a specialst though) in the Romanian army by then. The entire squadron deserted and joined the 6th SS in Yugoslavia. Until mid 1942(but i could be wrong here, nobody i could ask is still alive) the police was after them. However, AFAIK ethnic Germans were not admitted to the Wehrmacht. Only "Reichsdeutsche" could. As i read in his letters home, my uncle volunteered for the Luftwaffe but was refused for not being "Reichsdeutscher". There might have been exceptions from the rule though but the overwhelming majority of ethnic Germans (around 50 000, from RO at least) joined the Waffen SS.
The above doesn't argue the point made about Antonescu, it's thought as a completion.
"Dosar my as*. Come on!!! Is this a Doina Cornea's type of joke or what?! You didnt need any "dosar" to go to university and be an engineer... That's propagandistic crap. A book was 5 LEI, and more than 90% of the people knew how to read and write. DO NOT LISTEN BRUCAN ANYMORE."
My mother was not admitted to the university until mid 60ies for being of "unhealthy origins" (father in the SS mother deported to the Soviet Union). Even in 1989 you would get into big trouble if you applied for a university and you wern't in the UTC.
mabadesc said:
Remember it is a joke...
We have forgiven him ... and I think that this is our power... As bad as he was, we took him back... Buried or not here, he still remains a part of our history... not a part I could be proud of, but still our history...
I am just confused that if we (I reffer here to the Romanian officials) may "forget" about the bad things Carol II did, other Romanian personalities did not receive the same traitment...
When "judging" Carol II and Antonescu we have to comprise also the things they've done, the things that they haven't done, the things they really could have done and of course, hte time they disposed to do all these things...
As I said I do not intend to talk about burring him in Romania or not, I only said that to not ask him to respect him ... I do not care about the fact that he was a "playboy" .... but damn, as a KING, to take commissions in money, acting so against your own army ... hmmm... respect ... he did not respect the Romanian citizens, so why should I respect him ?
A senator is an ordinary man, but a KING is a KING? A symbol... A King should act as a KING... Or at least to play as a KING...
To force your army to order handkerchiefs ??? To improve the endowment of your army ...
"In 1938 all armament industry went under state control and monopolized by 'Malaxa Group' in spite of the prices imposed by this one, which were fifth time higher than Skoda's." ---- This is a statement I found on Internet, could someone give some figures???
http://institutulxenopol.tripod.com/xen ... gini/9.htm
Victor said :
We had to play the card of the oil sooner ...
You have to remember that Romania was not Mongolia ... The balance of powers in Europe was an other story... Do not ignore the importance of the oil for the Germans ... They could never afford that the Romanian oil could became Soviet... The importance of the oil for the Germans proved later.. And the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact was just a written "time-out" until the final clash...
Victor said:
BI
Now, to make a joke, I may say that France, first, have executed some and then they eventually buried them ...On the subject of Carol II, regardless of his flaws and merits, he deserves to be buried as a former king. It's just part of history now, and you can't ignore it. France had its share of vice-ridden monarchs, but they are all buried as kings. It was only during the French Reign of Terror (ca. 1793) that their tombs were desecrated. I hope we can do better than that.
Remember it is a joke... We have forgiven him ... and I think that this is our power... As bad as he was, we took him back... Buried or not here, he still remains a part of our history... not a part I could be proud of, but still our history...
I am just confused that if we (I reffer here to the Romanian officials) may "forget" about the bad things Carol II did, other Romanian personalities did not receive the same traitment...
When "judging" Carol II and Antonescu we have to comprise also the things they've done, the things that they haven't done, the things they really could have done and of course, hte time they disposed to do all these things...
As I said I do not intend to talk about burring him in Romania or not, I only said that to not ask him to respect him ... I do not care about the fact that he was a "playboy" .... but damn, as a KING, to take commissions in money, acting so against your own army ... hmmm... respect ... he did not respect the Romanian citizens, so why should I respect him ?
A senator is an ordinary man, but a KING is a KING? A symbol... A King should act as a KING... Or at least to play as a KING...
To force your army to order handkerchiefs ??? To improve the endowment of your army ...
"In 1938 all armament industry went under state control and monopolized by 'Malaxa Group' in spite of the prices imposed by this one, which were fifth time higher than Skoda's." ---- This is a statement I found on Internet, could someone give some figures???
http://institutulxenopol.tripod.com/xen ... gini/9.htm
Victor said :
We always think the worst... As N. Iorga said if we always put in balance the forces, then the existence of the Romanian state was below zero. The same problem faced the small countries all the time... If their political and military leaders were guided only by such balance of forces, such kind of small states could never exist on the map... As Iroga said: "In this case let's do not confound the world with the existance of the Romanian state." They didn't take into account the dynamic of the relations between the big powers... The Romanian oil became very important...Remember that Romania would not be another Finland, but another Khalin-Gol. Even if we would have been better prepared, we would not have stood much chance. The Red Army was more experienced in the summer of 1940. Think only at how much air power they could concentrate.
We had to play the card of the oil sooner ...
You have to remember that Romania was not Mongolia ... The balance of powers in Europe was an other story... Do not ignore the importance of the oil for the Germans ... They could never afford that the Romanian oil could became Soviet... The importance of the oil for the Germans proved later.. And the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact was just a written "time-out" until the final clash...
Victor said:
I was not reffering only to tanks...johhny_bi wrote:
The Hungarians had a plan and they have respected their program while we didn't... We made a good plan but a wrong and defectuos implementation...
And the fact that we were denied the license did not "help" a little?
BI
Victor said:
At least Antonescu was executed for his flaws.... but Carol II ? we welcame him ... for me just seems to be ironic, that's all... Or a king can not be convicted ? Yes, I think that this could be ...
Anyway, they are all dead and the history was written.
BI
By the way, this is not an excuse for stealing your own army .... And stealing is not a flaw ... We do not convict people for having flaws, but for stealing ... yes. Ca nu o facem noi "cu cei de rang inalt" nici macar in ziua de azi este altceva...Antonescu had other flaws.johnny_bi wrote:
I do not think that we may consider Carol II as being the supporter of the Romanian armament industry... he had substantial commisions in money... as I have already said... why didn't Antonescu do such things?
At least Antonescu was executed for his flaws.... but Carol II ? we welcame him ... for me just seems to be ironic, that's all... Or a king can not be convicted ? Yes, I think that this could be ...
Anyway, they are all dead and the history was written.
BI
good points made by everyone
Dead-cat: your comment about getting into college and the UTC was a very good point. When my parents left Romania in 1986, I was in 8th grade and about to take the exams for getting into a good science high school (math-physics). The school principal came over to me and told me it's pointless to even study for the exam because I wouldn't be allowed in the math-science class due to my parents being considered as "traitors" of communism. She told me the best I could hope for was getting into a "mechanics" high school class, or a vocational school. So, it's obvious that "unhealthy" origins in your dossier were still an issue even after the Stalinist era (although the repercussions were not nearly as severe).
Johnny-bi: I agree with your last answer on the question of Carol. I think this thread has exhausted the attention Carol deserved. With all his flaws (and qualities), I'm glad Romania took him back. I wish they would also honor Antonescu, another controversial ruler with both good parts and some not-so-good parts.
Question: I know this is not a topic intended for this thread, but I'm just curious to find out from the posters who currently live in Romania what their (and Romania's) public opinion stands on the issue of the US going into Iraq and getting rid of Hussein. Also, I understand there has been a small American Air Force deployment at Kogalniceanu. Was it well received or not? Personally, I get the impression that France and Germany's current generation hasn't lived under a communist-style totalitarian dictatorship and they have no problem with Hussein being in power. On the other hand, it would seem logical (maybe I'm wrong) that Romanians understand the oppresion and suffering of the Iraqi people and they may have a more pro-American view in liberating Iraq from Hussein's dictatorship.
I'm curious to get your comments (either pro or con) on this issue.
Regards,
Mihai.
Johnny-bi: I agree with your last answer on the question of Carol. I think this thread has exhausted the attention Carol deserved. With all his flaws (and qualities), I'm glad Romania took him back. I wish they would also honor Antonescu, another controversial ruler with both good parts and some not-so-good parts.
Question: I know this is not a topic intended for this thread, but I'm just curious to find out from the posters who currently live in Romania what their (and Romania's) public opinion stands on the issue of the US going into Iraq and getting rid of Hussein. Also, I understand there has been a small American Air Force deployment at Kogalniceanu. Was it well received or not? Personally, I get the impression that France and Germany's current generation hasn't lived under a communist-style totalitarian dictatorship and they have no problem with Hussein being in power. On the other hand, it would seem logical (maybe I'm wrong) that Romanians understand the oppresion and suffering of the Iraqi people and they may have a more pro-American view in liberating Iraq from Hussein's dictatorship.
I'm curious to get your comments (either pro or con) on this issue.
Regards,
Mihai.
Actually they were Austrian agents. They had already amassed trops on the border and were preparing to annex Romania. The emperor did not know about the plan, however. It is very interesting, how the Communist myth of the "1907 criminals" was dismantled. But of course you can still believe in it, as it suits your own ideas.Maresal-06 wrote: Ok. But I don't have the magazine. Maybe they talk about some Russian instigations against of the peasants... I've heard of this theory; very plausible.
Actually they caused a lot of trouble.Maresal-06 wrote: In 6 months, you cannot do pretty much.
Even in the 70s, when things had eased up, if you had a god file you had some advantages, like being admitted with a smaller grade etc. But in order to have PhD you had to be a member of the Party and so on. Do not make it sound like the Communists were gift of God.Maresal-06 wrote: You didnt need any "dosar" to go to university and be an engineer... That's propagandistic crap
Only 10% increase from the inter-war period.Maresal-06 wrote: A book was 5 LEI, and more than 90% of the people knew how to read and write
You can praise the Communists al day long, but take into consideration what would have meant to have a capitalistic and relatively democratic society in those 50 years instead of what we had. The progress would have been much bigger.
You seem to be obsessed with this idea.Maresal-06 wrote: DO I HAVE TO REMIND YOU THAT ROMANIANS WERE A MINORITY IN THEIR CITIES, IN 1940
And is it wrong that we can do this today?Maresal-06 wrote: Ok, that's the stuff! TODAY, yes! But NOT then!
Why should I be ashamed of telling the truth? I live in Romania you do not. I see how the people really are. I stopped believing in the "we are the smartest and fairest" fairy tales a long time ago. It is true, however, that since the inter-war period the situation has degenerated, thanks mainly to your beloved Communists.Maresal-06 wrote: Well, a hell of a sarcasm. If you are Romanian, you should be ashame of saying this
Why, just because I do not let my nationalism blind me? :roll:Maresal-06 wrote: But you leave me the impression that you aren't.
Grandfather/mother's side: Badescu, of peasant origin from a village in Vlasca (today in Teleorman)
Grandfather/father's side: Nitu, of small bourgeoisie/peasant origin (his father was a small tailor) from Alexandria (Teleorman)
Grandmother/mother's side: Stratulat/Uzun (officer + land owner family, going back to Stephen the Great) from Budai (Bessarabia) – lost everything during 1940, including much of her family
Grandmother/father's side: Ciucu, peasant origin from Islaz (famous for the 1848 proclamation, where the Olt meets the Danube)
Except for the my Bessarabian quarter, I am pretty much a Wallachian (with some Oltean blood in my also
)There is a big difference between theory and practice. Their short period of power shows it. Plus, their racial ideas make me sick.Maresal-06 wrote: The Iron Guard was patriotic and anti-corruption, and that's why she would have been better than Carol.
I believe that lt. gen. Hugo Schwab or maj. gen. Carol Schmidt should be enough, but I can provide much more. Would it surprise you to find out that there were also Jews that fought for Romania?Maresal-06 wrote: Names?
Yes, this is not the thread for it. There is already one entitle Holocaust in Romania.Maresal-06 wrote: It's maybe the most controversial subject of WWII; this isn't the thread were to discuss this.
You have to start paying attention to details.Maresal-06 wrote: That means that you were doubting that these guns could be moved... And you had the statement on your site
First: you said that the guns were already there. In fact only on 23 August did Antonescu give the order to move them.
Second: your statement is absurd (and to this I was referring when I asked for details) through the fact that you think that because the guns were on the line AFNG (and they were not) the USAAF could do what it pleased.
And they did carry out another raid in support of the 4th Paratrooper Battalion fighting Baneasa. However, the poor coordination meant that the Battalion suffered more casualties from the Americans, than from the Germans, IIRC.Maresal-06 wrote: BTW, king Mihai stated in his conversations with Mircea Ciobanu at page 20 that he send messages to the Allied Commandament in Italy to restart the aerian strikes against possible military objectives in Romania.
The Germans had to be able to enforce their will in June 1940. They could not as the majority of their forces was in the west. If Romania resisted, the Soviets had the justification of occupying the whole country, before the Germans could move.Johnny_bi wrote: Do not ignore the importance of the oil for the Germans ... They could never afford that the Romanian oil could became Soviet... The importance of the oil for the Germans proved later.. And the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact was just a written "time-out" until the final clash...
During the winter of 1940/41, the "1,000 Mann Aktion" was launched, through which the SS managed to recruit a first wave of one thousand volunteers from Romania, who were all incorporated in the "Das Reich" Division.dead-cat wrote: Ethnic Germans joined the Waffen SS from spring 1941 on.
By the end 1943 60,000 German Ethnics from Romania had joined the Waffen SS and 15,000 the Wehrmacht or the Organization Todt.dead-cat wrote: However, AFAIK ethnic Germans were not admitted to the Wehrmacht.
That is impossible in the current situation.mabadesc wrote: I wish they would also honor Antonescu, another controversial ruler with both good parts and some not-so-good parts.
Romania has one of the highest population support for war in Europe (49% IIRC). The explanation could be the one you gave, but I suspect it is also the psychological effect provoked by the American president and then troops coming to Romania. Some waited 60 years for the Americans to come and they finally did. Romania has also a large debt to recover from Iraq (around 1.7 billion USD) and this seems to be a good way to do it. Also, why not admit it, we will also have some economical gains from supporting the US.mabadesc wrote: Question: I know this is not a topic intended for this thread, but I'm just curious to find out from the posters who currently live in Romania what their (and Romania's) public opinion stands on the issue of the US going into Iraq and getting rid of Hussein. Also, I understand there has been a small American Air Force deployment at Kogalniceanu. Was it well received or not? Personally, I get the impression that France and Germany's current generation hasn't lived under a communist-style totalitarian dictatorship and they have no problem with Hussein being in power. On the other hand, it would seem logical (maybe I'm wrong) that Romanians understand the oppresion and suffering of the Iraqi people and they may have a more pro-American view in liberating Iraq from Hussein's dictatorship.
Only non-combat troops had been offered for an eventual war (a NBC company, a MP platoon and an engineer detachment) totaling 278 men and of course, more important, the air and port facilities.
"Question: I know this is not a topic intended for this thread, but I'm just curious to find out from the posters who currently live in Romania what their (and Romania's) public opinion stands on the issue of the US going into Iraq and getting rid of Hussein. Also, I understand there has been a small American Air Force deployment at Kogalniceanu. Was it well received or not? Personally, I get the impression that France and Germany's current generation hasn't lived under a communist-style totalitarian dictatorship and they have no problem with Hussein being in power. On the other hand, it would seem logical (maybe I'm wrong) that Romanians understand the oppresion and suffering of the Iraqi people and they may have a more pro-American view in liberating Iraq from Hussein's dictatorship. "
Since this might very easily turn into a flame which is indeed off topic for the current section, it might be a good idea to open a new thread under a different section (maybe non-ww2 history or something).
Since this might very easily turn into a flame which is indeed off topic for the current section, it might be a good idea to open a new thread under a different section (maybe non-ww2 history or something).
Victor said:
And about the time the Germans could move ... hmmm I remember the speed of the Germans in Yugoslavia and Greece... I don't think that the speed could be a reason...
BI
As far as I know Romania remained in the German "influence zone" ... I don't think that the Soviets were prepared for a war with Germany that time ... Attacking Romania could have brought to a direct conflict with Germany ... sooner even than Stalin expected... I think that the Romanians were just the sheeps ... The surviving sheeps but still the sheeps...The Germans had to be able to enforce their will in June 1940. They could not as the majority of their forces was in the west. If Romania resisted, the Soviets had the justification of occupying the whole country, before the Germans could move.
Johnny_bi wrote:
Do not ignore the importance of the oil for the Germans ... They could never afford that the Romanian oil could became Soviet... The importance of the oil for the Germans proved later.. And the Ribbentrop-Molotov pact was just a written "time-out" until the final clash...
And about the time the Germans could move ... hmmm I remember the speed of the Germans in Yugoslavia and Greece... I don't think that the speed could be a reason...
BI
-
Maresal-06
- Member
- Posts: 177
- Joined: 02 Jul 2002, 00:11
- Location: Qc, Canada
Victor said:
If it was Russia, ok... The events of 1907 were not a myth. A myth maybe for the liberal/conservator bloodsuckers. Foreign estimation recenze some 11.000 victims. The socialists (Russian agents) were coming with more than 12.000. Carol I said: ...mai multe mii... (some much thousands). If the peasants were living well and without too much problems, I don't see how could some foreign agents agitate them. The goverment's answer and the inaction of the king showed us the real face of the Monarchic institution, who should had represented the people. Carol I was one of the richest men of his epoch, what do you say of this? I've posted the statistics regarding his first 25 years of reign... I'm curious to know how much he accumulated in 48 years. Personally, I don't really care that the king was rich or not; but from the moment that the people lives in deep misery, it's revolting.
They really deserve their leaders. I don't believe that we are the smartest and fairest... No way. But you seem to show me that "You are the smartest and fairest" who never needs any lessons, anywhere.
The situation had degenerated not since the inter-war period, but since the Phanariots were brought on our country... And that's a pretty long time ago.
Nice historical of your family... From what part of Basarabia do you have an origin? The real Basarabia is just the southern part (actually in Ukraine, and a part in the Rep. of Moldova).
I'm half from Transylvania (my mother was born in Dej) and half Moldavian (my father from Vaslui). Both were from peasant families, who moved to town. My grandfather (mother's side) was chief at Cluj-Napoca's railway station.
Very interesting... Romania had signed a treaty of secret alliance with Austria in 1883... And now Austria was intending to invade his ally? I don't see the logic.Actually they were Austrian agents. They had already amassed trops on the border and were preparing to annex Romania. The emperor did not know about the plan, however. It is very interesting, how the Communist myth of the "1907 criminals" was dismantled. But of course you can still believe in it, as it suits your own ideas.
If it was Russia, ok... The events of 1907 were not a myth. A myth maybe for the liberal/conservator bloodsuckers. Foreign estimation recenze some 11.000 victims. The socialists (Russian agents) were coming with more than 12.000. Carol I said: ...mai multe mii... (some much thousands). If the peasants were living well and without too much problems, I don't see how could some foreign agents agitate them. The goverment's answer and the inaction of the king showed us the real face of the Monarchic institution, who should had represented the people. Carol I was one of the richest men of his epoch, what do you say of this? I've posted the statistics regarding his first 25 years of reign... I'm curious to know how much he accumulated in 48 years. Personally, I don't really care that the king was rich or not; but from the moment that the people lives in deep misery, it's revolting.Actually they caused a lot of trouble.
You seem to confound Codreanu's Iron Guard with Sima's Legion... That's too bad because these two were so different both in theory and practice. Since the assassination of Codreanu and other leaders in 1938, the Iron Guard was a dead organization; it was like a potato. Half underground, and half on the surface. So nearly all the good elements were exterminated by Carol II. When the Guard was in power (after 6th September 1940), it acted as an anarchist organization. It had even a branch of it controlled by Soviet agents (See Stoenescu's book: Armata, Maresalul si Evreii - The Army, The Marshal and the Jews).There is a big difference between theory and practice. Their short period of power shows it. Plus, their racial ideas make me sick.
10%???????? You must be joking... Maybe 50%! And in what whay capitalism would have been much better for Romania than communism?????????? Maybe Romania would have been today Frank's Timish property. The pre-war political class wasn't better than today's one. Read Nicolae Iorga's biography.Only 10% increase from the inter-war period.
You can praise the Communists al day long, but take into consideration what would have meant to have a capitalistic and relatively democratic society in those 50 years instead of what we had. The progress would have been much bigger.
Wasn't this very grave? When you have 3-4 strangers in your house? It was a geo-political problem. But let it be, you cannot understand this.You seem to be obsessed with this idea.
Geez, I never said that it was wrong that we can do it today!!! I said that it would have been more usefull then, when it was not accessible. It would have changed many things.And is it wrong that we can do this today?
Yes... When talking of people with your mentality, YOU ARE RIGHT!Why should I be ashamed of telling the truth? I live in Romania you do not. I see how the people really are. I stopped believing in the "we are the smartest and fairest" fairy tales a long time ago. It is true, however, that since the inter-war period the situation has degenerated, thanks mainly to your beloved Communists.
They really deserve their leaders. I don't believe that we are the smartest and fairest... No way. But you seem to show me that "You are the smartest and fairest" who never needs any lessons, anywhere. The situation had degenerated not since the inter-war period, but since the Phanariots were brought on our country... And that's a pretty long time ago.
Nationalism cannot blind you if read other authors than Mueller, Djuvara etc. BTW, the second said that Southern Dobrogea was never Romanian, in his chapter about the 2nd Balkan War.Why, just because I do not let my nationalism blind me?
Grandfather/mother's side: Badescu, of peasant origin from a village in Vlasca (today in Teleorman)
Grandfather/father's side: Nitu, of small bourgeoisie/peasant origin (his father was a small tailor) from Alexandria (Teleorman)
Grandmother/mother's side: Stratulat/Uzun (officer + land owner family, going back to Stephen the Great) from Budai (Bessarabia) – lost everything during 1940, including much of her family
Grandmother/father's side: Ciucu, peasant origin from Islaz (famous for the 1848 proclamation, where the Olt meets the Danube)
Except for the my Bessarabian quarter, I am pretty much a Wallachian (with some Oltean blood in my also )
Nice historical of your family... From what part of Basarabia do you have an origin? The real Basarabia is just the southern part (actually in Ukraine, and a part in the Rep. of Moldova).
I'm half from Transylvania (my mother was born in Dej) and half Moldavian (my father from Vaslui). Both were from peasant families, who moved to town. My grandfather (mother's side) was chief at Cluj-Napoca's railway station.
And now, why don't you post some names of foreigners who fought AGAINST Romania? ("Romanian" ones)I believe that lt. gen. Hugo Schwab or maj. gen. Carol Schmidt should be enough, but I can provide much more. Would it surprise you to find out that there were also Jews that fought for Romania?
Yes, I was wrong when I said that guns were already there. I understood wrongly that you didn't believe me when I said that it would have been possible to use them as anti-tank weapons. I apologize.You have to start paying attention to details.
First: you said that the guns were already there. In fact only on 23 August did Antonescu give the order to move them.
Second: your statement is absurd (and to this I was referring when I asked for details) through the fact that you think that because the guns were on the line AFNG (and they were not) the USAAF could do what it pleased.
Yes, the Americans bombed and killed the Romanian soldiers. The Soviets were not better.And they did carry out another raid in support of the 4th Paratrooper Battalion fighting Baneasa. However, the poor coordination meant that the Battalion suffered more casualties from the Americans, than from the Germans, IIRC.
Dead-cat: You are right. I shouldn't have asked about Iraq. This is not the right forum. I apologize.....
Maresal-06 - It's incomprehensible to me how you can defend communism, a system based on mass murder and forcing its ideology down the throat of everyone. If Romania had had 50 years of democracy after WWII, instead of Stalinism and Ceausescu, we would have been in a much much better situation right now. I agree 100% with Victor on this subject.
Regards,
Mihai.
Maresal-06 - It's incomprehensible to me how you can defend communism, a system based on mass murder and forcing its ideology down the throat of everyone. If Romania had had 50 years of democracy after WWII, instead of Stalinism and Ceausescu, we would have been in a much much better situation right now. I agree 100% with Victor on this subject.
Regards,
Mihai.