"Horthy kept Hungary out of the war until the Soviet attack"

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cavszabo
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"Horthy kept Hungary out of the war until the Soviet attack"

Postby cavszabo » 28 Oct 2012 10:19

[Split from "Hungarian park to be named after Admiral Miklós Horthy"]

Hi,

I feel that Horthy was primarily a man of great integrity and courage. He had some faults, but even some of these are to his credit, such as being too unrealistically a gentleman and thinking that others were the same. It is simply time that the Communist propaganda of the last half-century be challenged and Horthy and the governments under his Regency be given their rightful place in Hungarian history. I am pleased to see the Encyclopaedia Britannica write such sense about him, compared to much other nonsense.

Cheers,
Chris :D

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Hungarian park to be named after Admiral Miklós Horthy

Postby Sid Guttridge » 28 Oct 2012 13:14

I see Horthy as somewhat similar to Petain in France.

Both rendered their countries great service in difficult times, but later made some major errors that proved detrimental to their nations' interests.

I would only be really worried if Hungary began to put up statues to Arrow Cross leaders.

Cheers,

Sid.

P.S. I remember my father commenting ironically that Horthy was an Admiral in a landlocked country and Regent for a monarchy without a king.

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Marcus Wendel
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Re: Hungarian park to be named after Admiral Miklós Horthy

Postby Marcus Wendel » 28 Oct 2012 21:06

Let's drop the personal remarks and get back on topic.

/Marcus

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cavszabo
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Re: Hungarian park to be named after Admiral Miklós Horthy

Postby cavszabo » 28 Oct 2012 21:12

Sid Guttridge wrote:I see Horthy as somewhat similar to Petain in France.

Both rendered their countries great service in difficult times, but later made some major errors that proved detrimental to their nations' interests.

I would only be really worried if Hungary began to put up statues to Arrow Cross leaders.

Cheers,

Sid.

P.S. I remember my father commenting ironically that Horthy was an Admiral in a landlocked country and Regent for a monarchy without a king.

You're quite mistaken. Horthy was an elected Head-of-State, Petain never was. Hungary was attacked by the Soviet Union, but until then, stayed out of the war for two years. I agree Horthy made errors, but no bigger than other heads-of-state.

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cavszabo
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Re: Hungarian park to be named after Admiral Miklós Horthy

Postby cavszabo » 28 Oct 2012 21:15

cavszabo wrote:
Sid Guttridge wrote:I see Horthy as somewhat similar to Petain in France.

Both rendered their countries great service in difficult times, but later made some major errors that proved detrimental to their nations' interests.

I would only be really worried if Hungary began to put up statues to Arrow Cross leaders.

Cheers,

Sid.

P.S. I remember my father commenting ironically that Horthy was an Admiral in a landlocked country and Regent for a monarchy without a king.

Oh, and as for your PS, that was a bit of Allied propaganda. Hungary had no king because the Allies in 1919 and 1920 threatened war if the king returned. Hungary had a coast, but the Allies took it as they did from so many African and other nations in 1918. None of this was Horthy's fault. He was a constitutional head-of-state and had the Allies not been so arrogant, the king could have returned after a few years, which was Horthy's original plan.
As to Arrow Cross leaders, Horthy was always at loggerheads with them and had the main one imprisoned, legally. I notice in certain Western countries, vicious dictators have statues, like that of Stalin in the US.

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cavszabo
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Re: Hungarian park to be named after Admiral Miklós Horthy

Postby cavszabo » 28 Oct 2012 21:19

history1 wrote:
KaiserWolf wrote: Being part Hungarian, I glad to see the land of my people .

Then back to Hungary with you and helping to build up the county of your ancestors. Every helping hand is appreciated.
KaiserWolf wrote: honoring such a great mind.

Your "great mind" left his fatherland after the war not without a reason, I guess.

Yes. He left his homeland under Nazi arrest. Like so many other Hungarians, he was a victim of these people.

KaiserWolf wrote: To hell with all who stand against this re-naming.

He has nothing done of what he can be proud of. Jobbik would be proud about you with your attitude.


If other WWII leaders had had the kind of courage Horthy had -- for instance, to shout at Hitler -- WWII would have ended much better. Horthy was a war hero and kept Hungary out of the war until the Soviet air attack. He then sent the very smallest number of soldiers to the USSR in the hope he could minimise casualties. The decisions of Stalin and his allies were not Horthy's fault, but those decisions landed Hungary and the region in the worst oppression in its history.
Try to get some facts when taking part in discussions!

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Re: Hungarian park to be named after Admiral Miklós Horthy

Postby history1 » 29 Oct 2012 07:46

Mr. Szabo, seems that you prefer to shut out reality.

Has it not been the hungarian army who attacked the former state of Yugoslavia together with the Wehrmacht? Under Horty´s regency.
Was it not Horthy who approved the first antisemtic law, regarding jewish students, in September 1920?
Under who´s regency the jews of Southern Slovakia and Transylvania has been brought to Galicia (now part of Ukraine) and handed them over to german forces in this way?
What´s with the hundredthousands hungarian jews who has been transported to Auschwitz and murdered there? Sure Horty did stop those transports but only because of international pressure.


Was it not Horthy who sought to surrender to the Soviets and has been arrested by the Germans for it?
As I´m keen to learn please explain why Horthy left his home country after the war, what he have to fear then?

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Re: Hungarian park to be named after Admiral Miklós Horthy

Postby cavszabo » 29 Oct 2012 11:35

history1 wrote:Mr. Szabo, seems that you prefer to shut out reality.

Has it not been the hungarian army who attacked the former state of Yugoslavia together with the Wehrmacht? Under Horty´s regency.
Was it not Horthy who approved the first antisemtic law, regarding jewish students, in September 1920?
Under who´s regency the jews of Southern Slovakia and Transylvania has been brought to Galicia (now part of Ukraine) and handed them over to german forces in this way?
What´s with the hundredthousands hungarian jews who has been transported to Auschwitz and murdered there? Sure Horty did stop those transports but only because of international pressure.


Was it not Horthy who sought to surrender to the Soviets and has been arrested by the Germans for it?
As I´m keen to learn please explain why Horthy left his home country after the war, what he have to fear then?


1. No, Horthy did attack Yugoslavia. They Yugoslav air force bombed Hungarian territory. Hungary still didn't retaliate, and then the Germans told Hungary they would overrun it if it didn't join them. Also the British threatened us if we joined the Germans. Horthy's Prime Minister committed suicide over the dilemma. His cabinet suggested a very limited invasion. Horthy insisted on waiting until Croatia declared independence, thus ending the existence of Yugoslavia. He then advised the government (who made the decision) to only take back Hungarian areas which Yugoslavia got in 1918.
2. The "Numerus Clausus" is interpreted variously. Some see it as anti-Semitic. In actual fact it meant all minorities could send twice the percentage of their total number (so if you were ten per cent, you could be twenty percent of students) to university. The law was actually dropped in 1922, something people don't talk about. It was similar to Affirmative Action used in many countries, as ethnic Hungarians were a very low proportion of university students at the time.
3. Hungary was occupied in March, 1944. Horthy prorogued the Parliament under the Constitution because the Germans arrested all opposition parties. He was strongly urged to abdicate by Prime Minister Teleki, but he said he could still help Hungarian troops in Russia, the Jews and also Gypsies as well as any victims of the Nazis. He continued only the Crown Council or Cabinet, but in this time never signed the deportations. As a result, all deportations from Hungary were illegal. He believed the Nazis that the Jews were only taken for work and continued paying for their food. If you read "Auschwitz and the Allies", for instance, you will find that the Allies also did not believe the Holocaust was happening, it was too terrible! When Horthy finally found out about it, he instantly stopped it -- as far as he could. Also, in the summer, Hungarian Nazis tried to deport the Budapest Jews. Here Horthy had some power and used the Royal Hungarian Army to stop them. He saved 200,000 Hungarians of Jewish religion. This is a fact that should be given great publicity, but is not. Horthy was an unusually brave man and didn't care about the Allies' threats. He was convinced they were going to be unjust to him and to Hungary because of their treatment of the country after WWI. There was no international pressure to save Budapest's Jews, but he did it because he was a very decent, humane man. I would not believe all the Communist propaganda that has been written!
4. Yes, of course he wanted to surrender to the Soviets, but he would have preferred to surrender to the Western Allies and keep Hungary as a democracy, not a Communist dictatorship. But what kind of 'ally" arrests their own ally?
5. In a Communist Hungary he would have been put on a show-trial, tortured for years and eventually murdered. Almost all of his generals were treated this way, and anyone who had any decency or humanity was treated this way. I was arrested by them myself, but then released because of my Western passport. He also did not want to see his country under a primitive and barbaric despotism, which is what Communist Hungary was.

I trust I have helped answer some of your questions.

Chris

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Re: "Horthy kept Hungary out of the war until the Soviet att

Postby Sid Guttridge » 29 Oct 2012 13:17

Hi Cavszabo,

Petain came to power constitutionally, as did Horthy. Both had served their countries with distinction in the past and deserve recognition for this. Howver, both made decisions that proved detrimental to their countries in WWII, and this also must be recognized.

You write that, "Hungary was attacked by the Soviet Union". When do you mean?

My comment about Horthy being an admiral in a landlocked country and Regent for a monarchy without a king was by way of irony, much as the Holy Roman Empire has been described as neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire.

Yes, as constituted under the Dual Monarchy, the Hungarian half of the monarchy had a coast. This is now called Croatia and was and is populated by Croatians, not Magyars. It is a simple historical fact that never since the Magyars emerged from Asia beyond the Urals over a thousand years ago have they, as an ethnic and linguistic group, ever been settled on a coastline.

If I remember rightly, Horthy only shouted at Hitler at their last meeting in March 1944, when told that his country was about to be occupied by the Wehrmacht. He then stomed out of the room, leaving Hitler shouting after him! This, I would suggest, was a little too late in the day. Other Axis leaders, such as Antonescu, also had their open disagreements with Hitler, though they were not faced with the same threat.

Horthy was in a difficult position, but in the end played a poor hand wrongly by identifying his country so closely with Nazi Germany at the expense of Hungary's neighbours. Hungary was lucky not to have the felloe Magyars in Transilvania, Southern Slovakia and the Banat expelled en masse to the mother country after WWII, like the Sudeten Germans were.

You may have missed the point that I am not particularly opposed to a statue of Horthy, only to a statue of Arrow Cross leaders.

Cheers,

Sid.

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cavszabo
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Re: "Horthy kept Hungary out of the war until the Soviet att

Postby cavszabo » 29 Oct 2012 14:15

Sid Guttridge wrote:Hi Cavszabo,

Petain came to power constitutionally, as did Horthy. Both had served their countries with distinction in the past and deserve recognition for this. Howver, both made decisions that proved detrimental to their countries in WWII, and this also must be recognized.

I would strongly question the legitimacy of of Petain's "constitutionality, after all, France's opposition were all under arrest and France was not independent. But I suppose that's arguable.

You write that, "Hungary was attacked by the Soviet Union". When do you mean?

June 26th, which brought Hungary into the war. Hungary had no plans to take part in Barbarossa. Kassa (Kosice) was bombed by Soviet medium bombers and a civilian train was shot up by Soviet I-16 fighters. There was a long controversy over who really did the bombing, but today the consensus in Hungary is either it was a deliberate attack, like that on Finland, or an error, but for which the USSR did not apologise.


My comment about Horthy being an admiral in a landlocked country and Regent for a monarchy without a king was by way of irony, much as the Holy Roman Empire has been described as neither Holy, nor Roman, nor an Empire.

I get it.

Yes, as constituted under the Dual Monarchy, the Hungarian half of the monarchy had a coast. This is now called Croatia and was and is populated by Croatians, not Magyars. It is a simple historical fact that never since the Magyars emerged from Asia beyond the Urals over a thousand years ago have they, as an ethnic and linguistic group, ever been settled on a coastline.

Incorrect. Croatia as we know it today is made up of three distinct territories, historical Croatia, Dalmatia and Slavonia. Slavonia was part of Hungary from 1000 on and Croatia became a joint kingdom with Hungary in the 13th C. Parts of Dalmatia were Hungarian on and off during history. As to the place being settled by Hungarians, I didn't say it had been. But that hasn't ever worried those who have -- in between drinks -- settled other peoples' borders.

If I remember rightly, Horthy only shouted at Hitler at their last meeting in March 1944, when told that his country was about to be occupied by the Wehrmacht. He then stomed out of the room, leaving Hitler shouting after him! This, I would suggest, was a little too late in the day. Other Axis leaders, such as Antonescu, also had their open disagreements with Hitler, though they were not faced with the same threat.

That's right. Horthy set Hitler straight in 1939 as well, pointing out he had been an admiral when Hitler had been a corporal.

Horthy was in a difficult position, but in the end played a poor hand wrongly by identifying his country so closely with Nazi Germany at the expense of Hungary's neighbours. Hungary was lucky not to have the felloe Magyars in Transilvania, Southern Slovakia and the Banat expelled en masse to the mother country after WWII, like the Sudeten Germans

I'm glad you aren't the one deciding these things. I prefer to leave it up to the local people, something neither the Nazis, or Soviets, or Western Allies were ever prepared to do. Could you tell me why, perhaps, in the name of democracy and all that?

You are forgetting that Hungary lost only 3 percent less territory in 1918 than Palestine, but never turned to terrorism. All political formations, including the Communists, wanted a fair deal, but were not even allowed to speak at Versailles. You can't expect a country to lose most of its land and just accept it. I don't know where you're from but wherever it is, just imagine losing two thirds of your country and see how it makes you feel. Your countrymen would not accept it. The Irish only lost one quarter of their country in 1921, so to speak, but turned to terrorism. I think Hungarians should have, too, but it's too late now.


You may have missed the point that I am not particularly opposed to a statue of Horthy, only to a statue of Arrow Cross leaders.

I had the understanding that you were equating Horthy to the Arrow Cross leaders. Do keep in mind the Allies -- at a time when revenge was the general mood -- did not even lay charges of war crimes against Horthy.
As to whether Horthy could have done better: From 1920 to 1933 he tried desperately to build contacts with Britain and France, but was answered by a total embargo. Hungarians were literally starving when he finally turned to Mussolini, then Hitler. Had the Allies acted in a reasonable way, Hungary would have been an ally. However, that would have done us no good, as witness Poland's tragic fate. These Allies were the same racist people who would not even speak to the South African Native Congress or African National Congress at Versailles. They were literally not allowed in the door, and racist concepts of what Hungarians were (they were seen as Orientals) had a great deal to play in the decisions against us in Versailles. What those men created then -- the Balkan crises, the Israel-Arab conflict, and the conflicts around the really large Hungarian minorities in the successor states still haunt the world today. It is not a history to be proud of!


Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: "Horthy kept Hungary out of the war until the Soviet att

Postby Marcus Wendel » 29 Oct 2012 16:24

cavszabo, please do not write your reply within the quote, it makes impossible to see who wrote what part of the text.

/Marcus

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Re: "Horthy kept Hungary out of the war until the Soviet att

Postby Sid Guttridge » 01 Nov 2012 12:38

Hi

Petain was overwhelmingly voted his powers by the last session of the Third Republic. This happened in an unoccupied area of France and Petain was accepted by the overwhelming majority of Frenchmen as their constitutional head of state. At that stage, it was the few Free French who were regarded as traitors.

Personally, it seems perfectly plausible that the attack on Kassa was done by the USSR, but this does not make it a strong casus belli.

It was clear that on 22 June the USSR had been attacked massively along a thousand mile front and by 26 June its forces had already been pushed back from opposite the new Hungarian border in Ruthenia. It was therefore highly unlikely that the USSR had any immediate intentions to attack Hungary, even if it had so wished. There was certainly no advantage to it.

It seems rather more likely that Kassa was attacked in mistake for nearby Slovak territory, as Slovakia had just declared war on the USSR. Such confusion is even more plausible given that Kassa had been in Slovakia until only two years before.

It strikes me that, had Hungary really been intent on avoiding war, it could easily have put the two pinprick air raids down to the fog of war. However, it appears that early German successes and the prior participation of rival Romania and Slovakia led Hungary to use them as an excuse to join in and claim its share of the expected spoils, or at the very least prevent Romania displacing Hungary as Germany's favoured ally in the region.

You seem to completely disregard ethnicity as a factor or the right of non-Magyar peoples to self determination. It seems to be your case that, once a territory populated by others had been part of a Hungarian state, it must always remain so. I presume you feel that, on these grounds, Croatia and Croatians have no right to an independent existence at all?

What do you mean by the following, "I'm glad you aren't the one deciding these things. I prefer to leave it up to the local people, something neither the Nazis, or Soviets, or Western Allies were ever prepared to do. Could you tell me why, perhaps, in the name of democracy and all that?" I was not advocating the expulsion of Hungarians from neighbouring countries, I was merely pointing out that they were lucky not to be expelled at the same time as the Sudeten Germans. I guess that the USSR was opposed to such a drastic outcome, because I doubt the Romanians, Slovaks or Serbs felt any particular sense of obligation to their recently disloyal Hungarian minorities.

I suspect the Slovaks and Ruthenes regarded the Rongyos Garda as terrorists in 1938-39 and the Romanians wrote a whole book on what they considered Hungarian terrorism in Northern Transilvania over 1940-44.

As part of the Dual Monarchy, Hungary was one of the losing Central Powers and that is why it it lost territory and almost all it non-Magyar minorities at Versailles to Allied countries. If leaving "really large Hungarian minorities in the successor states..... is not a history to be proud of", why should Hungarians be proud of their own state before 1918, which included really large unwilling minorities of other etnicities in its own state?

It seems that you are suggesting it is alright for Hungary to rule unwilling minorities, but not right for them to rule unwilling Magyar minorities!

Cheers

Sid.

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Re: "Horthy kept Hungary out of the war until the Soviet att

Postby KACKO » 03 Nov 2012 15:59

Sid Guttridge wrote:It seems rather more likely that Kassa was attacked in mistake for nearby Slovak territory, as Slovakia had just declared war on the USSR. Such confusion is even more plausible given that Kassa had been in Slovakia until only two years before.

Slovakia didn't had two engine bombers which could be able to perform that attack. And to my knowledge there were not German bomber units stationed in Slovakia at that time.
Could be Soviet navigational error. Maybe Soviets were trying to bomb Slovak town Presov, which is only some 20-30 km from Kassa.

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Re: "Horthy kept Hungary out of the war until the Soviet att

Postby Sid Guttridge » 05 Nov 2012 11:49

Hi Kacko,

Nobody is suggesting that Slovakia bombed Kassa.

The suggestion is that Soviet bombers may have bombed Kassa in mistake for Slovak territory. Kassa was very close to the Slovak border and had been in Slovakia only two years before.

Thus Soviet navigation error or out of date maps may be responsible.

Cheerrs,

Sid.

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Re: "Horthy kept Hungary out of the war until the Soviet att

Postby cavszabo » 13 Nov 2012 15:29

Sid Guttridge wrote:Hi

Petain was overwhelmingly voted his powers by the last session of the Third Republic. This happened in an unoccupied area of France and Petain was accepted by the overwhelming majority of Frenchmen as their constitutional head of state. At that stage, it was the few Free French who were regarded as traitors.


Oddly, though, Petain was sentenced as a war criminal. It seems the constitutinality or otherwise of his office was not part of the trial, then!

Cheers,
Chris


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