Combat strength of Romanian Hungarian armies.

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RedRight
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Combat strength of Romanian Hungarian armies.

Post by RedRight » 25 Mar 2017 16:26

What was the combat strength of 1)Romania 2)Hungary on 01.07.1943.

Art
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Re: Combat strength of Romanian Hungarian armies.

Post by Art » 26 Mar 2017 09:29

What is combat strength exactly? In the summer 1943 Hungary only fielded occupational forces fighting partisans, but not any forces on the front.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Combat strength of Romanian Hungarian armies.

Post by Sid Guttridge » 27 Mar 2017 18:23

Hi Redright,

What do you mean by "combat strength"? Most of both armies were at home at the time. Are they to be included?

Or do you just mean those on an active battlefront? If the latter, this would just mean the handful of Romanian divisions in the Kuban bridgehead.

Cheers,

Sid

catalin_67
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Re: Combat strength of Romanian Hungarian armies.

Post by catalin_67 » 28 Mar 2017 17:22

Romanian army was a bit more present: crimeea, Stalingrad, Odessa, Caucasus...

RedRight
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Re: Combat strength of Romanian Hungarian armies.

Post by RedRight » 30 Mar 2017 15:26

I mean front and fighting with partisans that is all units in occupied area of the Soviet Union.

Art
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Re: Combat strength of Romanian Hungarian armies.

Post by Art » 01 Apr 2017 14:59

See the order of battle in July 1943:
http://www.axishistory.com/other-aspect ... he-panzers

Romania had 6 divisions (2 infantry, 2 cavalry, 2 mountain) and a HQ of the Romanian Cavalry Corps in the Taman peninsula/Caucasus, 2 mountain divisions and a HQ of the Mountain Corps in Crimea, and 1 infantry division on the Azov Sea coast. Total 9 divisions. In addition the region between Dniestr and Bug Rivers was occupied by 4 Romanian diversions (1, 2, 3 Security and 1 Fortress Division then renamed 5, 15, 9, 6 Infantry Divisions). According to Mark Axworthy in October 1943 Romanian forces east of the Bug River (Taman, Crimea and Ukraine) numbered 106 578 men. I expect their strength in July was not much different. The entire Romanian Army had about 600 000 men on 15 April 43.

As for Hungarians see:
http://www.niehorster.org/015_hungary/o ... rview.html
http://www.niehorster.org/015_hungary/o ... y_hof.html
They had 6 divisions on security/anti-partisan duties in the rear area of the German Eastern Front and VII Army Corps with 3 divisions in the Reichskommissariat Ukraine. No idea about combat strength.

RedRight
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Re: Combat strength of Romanian Hungarian armies.

Post by RedRight » 01 Apr 2017 17:30

Why did they keep a large number of troops at home.

Art
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Re: Combat strength of Romanian Hungarian armies.

Post by Art » 02 Apr 2017 09:35

Both Romanians and Hungarians suffered catastrophic defeat in the winter of 1942/43 and had little desire or capabilities to field large forces on the Eastern Front. Besides they needed time for rebuilding and reequipping their armies. Finally relations between Hungary and Romania were so bad that they needed forces at home to guard the border between them.

McGuba
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Re: Combat strength of Romanian Hungarian armies.

Post by McGuba » 03 Apr 2017 12:30

Truly, the Hungarian army lost about half of its heavy equipment and weapons during the defeat and retreat in winter 1942/43. The other half was held back for an expected war with Romania over the disputed land of Transylvania. At the same time factories were trying hard to replace the losses but were unable to fully re-equip the army by mid 1944. And from mid 1944 a successful Allied bombing campaign and the lack of raw materials had put and end to these attempts.
Art wrote:As for Hungarians see:
http://www.niehorster.org/015_hungary/o ... rview.html
http://www.niehorster.org/015_hungary/o ... y_hof.html
They had 6 divisions on security/anti-partisan duties in the rear area of the German Eastern Front and VII Army Corps with 3 divisions in the Reichskommissariat Ukraine. No idea about combat strength.
In fact these were only brigades with two regiments. They were only renamed as (light) divisions to impress the Germans who always demanded more contribution. Besides, originally security divsions had little to none heavy weapons (artillery, AT guns, etc.) and only few old machine guns. Therefore they were forced to use captured equipment. However, later some light guns were added along with a few captured French tanks from the German pool, but in many cases even the partisans were better equipped.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Combat strength of Romanian Hungarian armies.

Post by Sid Guttridge » 03 Apr 2017 20:27

Hi Redright,

Hungary had no war aims in the USSR, so it limited its commitment as far as possible. It was also still suffering from the Treay of Trianon, which had prevented its rearmament until 1938. Therefore only one of three armies was committed to the campaign in 1941-43.

Romania had real war aims against the USSR as it had lost Basarabia to it in 1940. The Romanians were therefore much more committed. At least initially they also had much more weaponry as they had been free to arm as they wished between the wars. As a result, two of Romania's three armies, plus their mountain and cavalry corps, were committed in 1941-42 and every single Romanian division campaigned at one time or another. However, as so much of the Hungarian Army was at home, never less than five Romanian divisions were held back and, in 1942, the front line divisions were reduced from nine to seven infantry battalions, allowing the divisional depots back home to be built up to six infantry battalions, though their artillery was weak.

Stalingrad and the evacuation of the Crimea changed the balance between the two, as Romania lost the equipment of over two armies, while Hungary lost that of only one. When the Red Army began to threaten them in early 1944, both put two armies in the field. The Romanians were able to rebuild their army almost completely in a short period because their depots still had the infantry manpower held back from the 1942 campaign.

Cheers,

Sid

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