The Romanian Army in ww2

[Csaba Becze]

Hello Eduard,

Hungary didn't get any help from Germany for this tanks. For the Tas project, Hungary planned to buy the Panther's gun. They discussed with the Germans to buy some Panther guns, but it was all. The Tas was a fully Hungarian project, with two Turán engines, Hungarian planned and manufactured body, etc. The only manufactured prototype had Hungarian 75 mm gun also, not German. The Toldi was a Swdish licence, rebuilted and improved by Hungary. The Turán project was a Czech plan, improved and rebuilted by Hungary, both without German help or impressions.

Hungary also received planes from Germany but just on the eastern Front and later, than Rumania. Sometimes the Hungarians got the roll outed Rumanian (!) Messers on the eastern front from the Germans. I mentioned the IAR 80's gun as an evidently German help for a Rumanian project (Hungary had not similar business)

Hungary manufactured Bf 109G and Me 210 Ca-1 planes also, but the Hungarian Messerschmitt program was the Messerschmitt A.G.'s business. They wanted to make it for the profit, not the German military leaders...

Hungary was not a "fascist" country during the Horthy era - we had parliament, etc. Hitlers hatred against the Hungarians had old roots: when he was young in Vienna, he met with some Austrian anti-semitic ideology, and Hungary was an "ill" country for them (Budapest=Judapest, etc) In August, 1938 Hitler pressured Horthy to attack Czechoslovakia, but Horthy refused it. Hitler was very furious, he said later always, that "the Hungarians don't want to fight".
Horthy's standpoint was, that our enemies took away a lot of Hungarian territories without fight - we can give it back without fight also - but when Hungary needed weapons, they never hesitated (attack against Carpatho-Ukraine and Eastern Slovakia - Yugoslavia was a different situation)

I didn't get a detailed answer form my main question

[Maresal-06]

Csaba Becze wrote :

Hungary had more and performant tanks than Rumania in 1940???
You must be joking!

In 1940 Hungary only had 80 Toldi I light tanks (weaponry: one 20 mm Solothurn semi-automatic gun and a 8 mm MG) In this time Hungary had not any Nimróds or Turáns. Rumania had 126 LT vz 35 tanks, 75 Renault R-35 tanks, and approx 75 Renault FT-17 tanks also, if I know correctly. The FT-17 was an obsolete type in this time, but the Lt vz 35 and the R-35 had 37 mm AT gun, so it was 10 time better, than the first Toldis(simply not the same cathegory). So, what army had the bigger tank power?

"During 1936-37 Hungary had been negotiating production rights with Sweden for a light tank which it dubbed the Toldi. At the break-up of the Austro-Hungary, Hungary had inherited the Manfred Weiss motor company and the MAVAG locomotive works. These companies gave Hungary a local automotive tradition unmatched by Romania and a head start in AFV manufacture. The first Toldis were ordered in 1938, and 190 were delivered during 1940-42. The vehicle weighed 8.7 tons, its main armament was a 20mm gun and its thickest armor was 13mm deep. The Toldi proved a poor tank in service, but it was far superior to the R-1, which Romania could not get into production. In 1943-44 Toldis were rebuilt and 12 new vehicles completed. These weighed 9.4 tons, their main armament was a 40mm gun and their thickest armour was 35mm deep. A final development of the Toldi was the the Nimrod self-propelled gun."

Max Axworthy - Third Axis, Fourth Ally - The Romanian Army in WWII, Arms and Armour, London, 1995, page 35.

As far as I can understand, proportionally with the size of her army, Hungary was better equiped in armour than Romania, and that even in August 1940. Hungary was also in a better posture to claim territories after the defeat of France and the routing of G-B. The Romanian R-35 were very poor tanks, very slow and lacking a radio. They were made for a static war. Their only advantage was that theiy were virtually immune to ATR fire...

The "liberation" of Bessarabia and Northern Bucovina is an ideological question (this places were not old Rumanian territories, were captured just after the WW I, and some historicans said, that the Soviets had right with the Bessarabian question, without Northern Bucovina)
Hungary had not any territorial or other problems with the Sowietunion. In 1944 the Germans invaded Hungary and after 15 October, a lot of Hungarian solders didn't want to fight for Hitler of for Szálasi (but a lot of Hungarian units continued the fight till the end of war on the German side)

So the Romanians were not motivated to liberate these territories (Bessarabia and N. Bucovina)? What do you know about Bessarabia and Bucovina to declare that they are not old Romanian territories? Who are the "some historians" who said that SU had rights on these territories?...

It was after the Soviet ultimate, so the Sowietunion was not a potential enemy.

As I stated before, armed clashes at the new Romanian-Soviet border on the Prut from June 1940 to June 1941 were very frequent. Soviet concentrations of forces were observed by the Romanians and Germans spies. Soviet tracts of propaganda could be found in Moldavia. During the Iron Guards "Rebellion" of January 1941, the Soviets launched a massive campaign of diversion and propaganda, trying to incite the people to revolt and anarchy, in order to "liberate" Romania from the "fascist yoke" etc...

Bulgaria was so weak, and had not any military cooperations against Rumania with Hungary.

If Hungary was attacking, what do you think Bulgaria would be doing too? Weren't you allies in WWI? Bulgaria wanted all of Dobrogea, and by arms if necessary. As weak as she could look, allied with Hungary, Bulgaria could do some big trouble. At that moment, the Soviets could have entered Romania to "secure" the oilfields and force Germany to enter in war against SU in 1940!

In my estimate, the Rumanian army was nearly 3 times stronger, than the Hungarian in this time, and Rumanians had the Carol-line also.

The retreat of Bessarabia was a complete disaster for the Romanian Army. The Soviets advanced, and with the local minorities disarmed the Romanian soldiers and captured a lot of precious war material. In only that retreat, Romania lost 1/3 of her military capacity. As for the "Carol line"... Are you jocking? That line deserved her name!!! It is not a coincidence that she was called the "Imaginot" line!!! The "imaginary" line...

I am really curious want to know the causes ot the Rumanian decision.
Your opinion is this: some Rumanian politicians and military leaders were simply coward?

I asked this from Ovidius some months earlier, because he said: "the Rumanians can't live without Transsylvania". So, I asked him, if it is true - why didn't fight the Rumanian Army for Transsylvania in August, 1940, but I didn't get any answer...

You'll get the answer from me! The government in place, in August 1940, was a royal dictature. To save his crone and head, king Carol II and his government simply decided to cede Northern Transylvania, and by this, not to be invaded by the Germans and the Soviets. That was his point of view. Not everyone was thinking like him. For example, in Cluj, the Romanians were eager to fight, but the government said to them : "It's the government who gives orders in this country, and not the people. We must accept the ultimatum, if not, we will maybe never have the chance to rewin the territories"... You see what I mean? The army was ready to fight at any costs, but the government and the king (who was chief of the army) said NO. BTW, Horthy was a far more nationalist than king Carol and his mistress...

Regards,

M-06

[Eduard Chivu]

maresal wrote

What do you know about Bessarabia and Bucovina to declare that they are not old Romanian territories? Who are the "some historians" who said that SU had rights on these territories?...

which ever person you quoted in your reply above should do more researching. moldova has always been ethnically rumanian, that's why they speak rumanian, and ARE rumanian. when the soviets invaded at least 80% were rumanian, so then how can moldova not be rumanian? today about 67% is rumanian, but that's because under the soviet rulers, ukrainians and russians were moved in while rumanians were moved out to remote russian areas.
maresal is right what he says about the people wanting to fight, King Carol 2 and King Michael were both what caused the downfall of rumanian army. instead of rearming they used the money to buy themselves precious valuables out of peoples taxes. rumania would of surely lost against the soviet union, but back in 1940 rumania was technologicaly close to the soviet union. the rumanian r-2 tank could surely compete with the t-26, and the rumanian 37 and 47mm anti tank guns could deal with the russian light tanks. also the rumanian airforce equally, if not better matched the russian air force. at the time the rumanian iar-80 was adequate for it's time, while the main russian fighter(i-16) was no match for it. the only plane at the time that russia had that could maybe compete with the iar-80 was the mig-1, which was really no match and there weren't enough of them anyways. the slightly better mig-3 came out late in 1940, so it's not likely that it would of seen service. the rumanian soldiers would of been highly motivated in defending their lands so they might of performed better than the soviets. moldova is also a landscape of mountains, so defending against tanks would of been easier because of the many hills. the battle of targul frumos took place in moldova, and look at the results. i'm not saying rumanian tanks would of done the same, but they would of had a definite advantage. last germany might of sent some type of help to rumania, maybe arms, tanks, airplanes or just supplies.
the king wanted to save his head(as maresal said) so he let hungary take transylvania, although I think that rumania would of had a good chance against hungary, and maybe bulgaria at the same time. if i'm wrong please correct me, but in 1940 rumania i think had a bigger army then hungary and bulgaria combined.
eduard

[Victor]

I didn't get a detailed answer form my main question

I will try to address your question.
The deciding factors were:
1). The Soviet military pressure became more and more powerful, even after the annexation of Bessarabia and Northern Bukovina.

On the Prut line, the Soviets caused several incidents on 20, 26 and 31 July, 11, 12,13, 16, 17, 23, 24, 25,26, 27, 29 and 30 August. But using the usual Soviet rhetoric, they accused Romanian troops of provocations. During the night of 29/30 August, Grigore Gafencu, the Romanian ambassador, was summoned at midnight by the People's Deputy Commissar for Foreign Affairs, Vladimir Dekanozhov, and given a note, which protested against frontier violations, by Romanian aircraft (that one may have been true; the Blenheims were flying recon missions IIRC) and military units. The Soviet press was also used in this propaganda war, mainly to pressure the Romanian government.

2). Germany's threats, formulated by Hitler personally and by his foreign minister

Even though you do not give them too much weight in August 1940, they could have become really "heavy" later, as the Germans would have moved more troops eastwards. Also we are talking about the country that defeated France, the "finest army in the world" until May 1940. That defeat had shocked the Romanian politicians and public opinion.

3). The possibility of an attack from the south from Bulgaria.

However, the General Staff gave more importance to the Western, Eastern and Northern borders. In a study they made on 26 August 1940, it was stated that we are in the situation of being attacked simultaneously by the Hungarians and by the Russians, and with some probability by the Bulgarians and Yugoslavs.

The army was deployed like this: 14 divisions against Hungary, 15 against SU and 1 against Bulgaria. Another 6 were kept in reserve, along with the tank regiments and motorized heavy artillery regiments. However, a part of these divisions were reserve divisions, which were rather modest by terms of equipment and training.

The General staff study continues: The defense of Transylvania with all our forces, while only covering the rest of our frontiers, would lead to the loss of Moldavia, Dobruja, Banat and even Walllachia.

4). The political isolation in which Romania found itself.

That was a really big problem for us. Practically we were left at the mercy of Germany and SU, as we could not defend ourselves alone. The 2nd Vienna Dictate had one positive side for Romania: it guaranteed the frontiers of what was left of it.

I hope this clears up some things for you.

[Victor]

rumania received the most amount of equipment, and they also produced several german planes(stuka, ju-88, me109).

Romania did not produce any Ju-87s or Ju-88s. Only 75 Bf-109Ga-6s.Most of which served ironically against Germany.

Romania received some help from Germany, but like all the other Axis allies too little, too late. Germany proved to be really cheap when it came to dealing with its allies. We tried in vain to buy the DB license to change the engine on the IAR-80, but in vain. Also all orders for tank assembly lines from France or Czechoslovakia and heavy machinery equipment from Switzerland were canceled at German request.

maresal is right what he says about the people wanting to fight, King Carol 2 and King Michael were both what caused the downfall of rumanian army. instead of rearming they used the money to buy themselves precious valuables out of peoples taxes.

Carol II was not the sole responsible for the state of the Romanian military in 1940. Also, what the hell did Michael have to do with it in 1940?

but back in 1940 rumania was technologicaly close to the soviet union

Are you serious?

rumanian r-2 tank could surely compete with the t-26

True, but could it compete with their numbers?

also the rumanian airforce equally, if not better matched the russian air force

You must be joking, right? Do you have any idea how many aircraft the SU had?

at the time the rumanian iar-80 was adequate for it's time, while the main russian fighter(i-16) was no match for it. the only plane at the time that russia had that could maybe compete with the iar-80 was the mig-1, which was really no match and there weren't enough of them anyways. the slightly better mig-3 came out late in 1940, so it's not likely that it would of seen service

Actually the IAR-80was not available in June 1940
The only ones were some P.11fs, P.24Es, He-112Bs and few Hurricanes and Bf-109Es. Do you really think that these could stand up to hundreds of Ishaks and Chaykas? Not to mention the more experienced pilots, who fought in Finland and at Khalin Gol. The ARR was still using French tactics and organization and did not have the benefit of German instructors then.
BTW, the MiG-1 was only a prototype.

the rumanian soldiers would of been highly motivated in defending their lands so they might of performed better than the soviets. moldova is also a landscape of mountains, so defending against tanks would of been easier because of the many hills. the battle of targul frumos took place in moldova, and look at the results. i'm not saying rumanian tanks would of done the same, but they would of had a definite advantage.

Yet another armchair general fantasy. The Soviets just had to stick to the main road and use their superior mobility and numbers to brake through and encircle the Romanian forces, as they have to retreat. During the battle of Targu Frumos, the Soviets were fighting one of the very best units in the world, which had the benefit of some quite good air support. Not to mention it had a superb CO.

[Csaba Becze]

Victor:

Many thanks for your detailed answer, and the parts of the General Staff study. It helped me a lot to understand the Rumanian decision.

BTW, why tought some Rumanian officers, that Yugoslavia wanted to attack Rumania?? Maybe some officers were a bit paranoid in this situation? They tought that all of their neighbours and Germany also wanted to attack Rumania? In my opinon, only Hungary had a serious plan to attack Rumania (and the Sowiets, if Rumania didn't get back Bessarabia)

Eduard:
As I wrote here before, in summer 1940 only 80 Toldi I light tanks, and the Nimród was a different AFV, it was not developed from the Toldi.
Hungary made really huge efforts to improve a good army during the war, and the Hungarian indusrty's performance was quite remarkable, but it was not enough, especially against the huge Red Army...

About the Bessarabian question: sorry, but i am too lazy8), to write a lot about this thing, but evidently I tought some Soviet, and Russian historians, who think, that it was not an offensive step from Stalin, just give back a former territory (but Northern Bucovina was not the part the former Russia) The Russian nationalist opinion, that Russia save Rumania in WW I from the total collapse (btw, this is true), and Rumania's gratitude was after the war, that they made a backstab against Russians with the occupation of this land. The ethnic maiority is secondary importance from this question (btw you have right, this land had and has novadays, if i know correctly, Rumanian etchnic maiority)

[Csaba Becze]

And about the MiG-1 fighters: it was a small series, and if I know correctly, was used just around Moscow to defence the city. In summer, 1941 the Southwestern Front's MiG regiments had only MiG-3's.

About the Carol line: from 1937, till August, 1940 the Rumanians made 320 modern concrete small fortresses with French engineers. This is a joke for you?

[Eduard Chivu]

victor wrote

Romania did not produce any Ju-87s or Ju-88s. Only 75 Bf-109Ga-6s.Most of which served ironically against Germany.

when i wrote the names of all those planes i meant which ones were used by rumania, not which ones were produced by it. but it's my mistake because i put it in paranthesis after i talked about production.
victor wrote

Carol II was not the sole responsible for the state of the Romanian military in 1940. Also, what the hell did Michael have to do with it in 1940?

you're right, michael didn't have to do anythign with it.
but when i was thinking of the thread bad kings came to mind, and who else but those two to write. who else beside carol 2 had the main control of the army?
victor wrote

Eduard Chivu wrote:
but back in 1940 rumania was technologicaly close to the soviet union


Are you serious?

yes i'm pretty serious, tell me in which way the soviets were better TECHNOLOGICALY, not in numbers than rumania. as i said the t-26 matched the r-2, the bf109 was a lot better than the i-16 which was the major russian fighter at that time. the russian infantry had in service bolt action rifles and submachine guns which were pretty equal to the z.b(which is a lot better than the magant, sorry about spelling). the ppsh though was better than the orita, i'll admit that. navy i can't compare, it's obvious.

victor wrote

You must be joking, right? Do you have any idea how many aircraft the SU had?

i was talking technologicaly, not numericaly.

victor wrote

Yet another armchair general fantasy. The Soviets just had to stick to the main road and use their superior mobility and numbers to brake through and encircle the Romanian forces, as they have to retreat. During the battle of Targu Frumos, the Soviets were fighting one of the very best units in the world, which had the benefit of some quite good air support. Not to mention it had a superb CO.

why didn't they do the same thing in finland? where there were fewer roads and they could of encircled the finnish fighters. finland is mainly forest, but they do have roads.
you also said in that reply that the ss in targul frumos had good air support. they barely had any air support, because the at the time the russians had almost all aircraft superiority on the eastern front.
I guess i came to one conclusion, the only way we'd know what would of happened is if it would of happened.
eduard

[Maresal-06]

Csaba Becze wrote :

About the Carol line: from 1937, till August, 1940 the Rumanians made 320 modern concrete small fortresses with French engineers. This is a joke for you?

Listen, this line was a very minor because she was firstly begun during the winter of 1939-40. French engineers just stood there and watched some poor peasants working like slaves to built these fortresses who were not completed in August 1940. That's why she didn't got any place in Romanian military history. The most important fortified lines were in Bessarabia on the Nistru, in the Vrancea & Buzau counties and in Southern Dobrogea. So the Carol line couldn't be a very serious defense line.

BTW, why tought some Rumanian officers, that Yugoslavia wanted to attack Rumania??

There is no eternal friendship between nations... ONLY INTERESTS!

[Maresal-06]

RE-ARMING ROMANIA!!!

[Csaba Becze]

It seems not a small mole-hill, made by some poor peasants, but evidently you know it better

[Maresal-06]

Have you more photos (and "clearer" ones)?

[Csaba Becze]

Unfortunately, no. I have sevseral snaps from autumn, 1940 in this area, but only this photo was taken about a fortress of the Carol-line.

[PanzerKing]

The IAR 80, such a great plane. It's too bad almost no one knows it existed! I wonder what it would have been like with that new engine in it...it would have flown at 390-400 mph max right?

[Witch-King of Angmar]

from what i know hitler did hate hungary. but what i don't understand is that prewar he was known to have said that he would attack hungary, but he never did. was it because hungary was fascist, and it wouldn't be a good political move for him to attack another fascist country?

Hitler had always tried to gain the support of the Romanian leaders, ever since 1933. That's why, the 1940 Vienna affair seems a bit out of place.

Wha is even stranger is the Hitler had repelled the Magyar claim to "at least 60,000 sq km, an absolute minimum" at limited the territorial gains of Hungary to slightly over 43,000 sq km. So, even when he decided in favor of Hungary, was still reluctant.

The question being: why?

What made Hitler to take the infamous Vienna decision?
What could curb the will of the Führer himself?

I'd say the only thing that could make Hitler change his mind was fear.

Of what?

Our conspiracy theorist, Maresal-06, should know better.

~The Witch King of Angmar