Czechoslovak army

Discussions on all aspects of the smaller Axis nations in Europe. Hosted by G. Trifkovic.
John Withill
Member
Posts: 8
Joined: 07 Dec 2015 20:39
Location: Leeds

Czechoslovak army

Postby John Withill » 07 Dec 2017 08:21

Any one got anything at all about the Czech and Slovak armies during world war 2 ?

User avatar
Waleed Y. Majeed
Member
Posts: 2626
Joined: 13 Nov 2004 11:37
Location: Aarhus, Denmark

Re: Czechoslovak army

Postby Waleed Y. Majeed » 07 Dec 2017 10:32

Didn't know it existed as a national army after the annexation. Some fought on as part of the Wehrmacht, the Polish and Soviet armed forces, Czech forces in exile and French foreign legion. Some as SOE agents, RAF pilots etc., but as an independent
Czech/Slovak army...?
w

User avatar
Loïc
Member
Posts: 624
Joined: 14 Jun 2003 03:38
Location: Riom Auvergne & Bourbonnais France

Re: Czechoslovak Army of France

Postby Loïc » 07 Dec 2017 16:55

In France it existed in 1939-1940 a true Czechoslovakian Army, as in 1917-1918 and like the Polish Army, who was restored in the camp d'Agde in Languedoc

France didn't recognize the news states, there was still a Czechoslovakian provisional government in exile and an Army like for the Polish
around 12 000 citizens were mobilised, even an Air Force planned for 2 fighter and one bomber group from the numerous pilots joining the Armée de l'Air

the aborted «1st Czechoslovakian Division» was raised but due to the circumstances their 1st and 2nd Infantry Regiments served within 2 French Divisions (the 23e DI and 239e DLI) in june 1940,
datas and Archives about the rebirth of the Czechoslovakian Army in France in this thread
http://atf40.forumculture.net/t1677-1re ... coslovaque

part of these men could escape to Great Britain

Regards
Loïc
Last edited by Loïc on 07 Dec 2017 17:11, edited 1 time in total.

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 5543
Joined: 12 Jun 2008 11:19

Re: Czechoslovak army

Postby Sid Guttridge » 07 Dec 2017 17:08

I would highly recommend Axis Slovakia for the Slovaks, particularly the text:

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss ... s+slovakia

Sid

Cekekb
Member
Posts: 9
Joined: 07 Dec 2017 19:25
Location: Czech republic

Re: Czechoslovak army

Postby Cekekb » 07 Dec 2017 19:43

Through the war there were:

In Poland
- one air squadron
- battalion- sized "Czechoslovak legion", took part in AA defence

In France:
-1st Infantry division - 2 ingantry regiments and engineer company saw combat in June 1940
couple hundred airmen - about

In the UK
-4 RAF squadrons - fighter wing with three squadrons and bomber squadron
-Independent armoured brigade - besieged Dunkerque from October 44 until May 45

In the Middle East
-Independent infantry battalion - fought in Syria a in defense of Tobruk, later reorganized as AA artillery regiement

in the USSR
-Independent infantry battalion was formed in 1942, by the end of war there was army corps with four infantry brigades, a tank brigade and air froce division

Slovakia
Slovak forces during the 44 uprising were considered part of Czechoslovak army, even designated as "1st Czechoslovak army"

User avatar
KACKO
Member
Posts: 564
Joined: 31 Jan 2005 16:34
Location: Slovakia

Re: Czechoslovak Army of France

Postby KACKO » 28 Jan 2018 19:42

Loïc wrote:In France it existed in 1939-1940 a true Czechoslovakian Army, as in 1917-1918 and like the Polish Army, who was restored in the camp d'Agde in Languedoc

1st Czechoslovak Infantry Division - app 50% of men were Slovaks, while Slovaks were not even 20% of population.

Loïc wrote:France didn't recognize the news states, there was still a Czechoslovakian provisional government in exile and an Army like for the Polish
around 12 000 citizens were mobilised, even an Air Force planned for 2 fighter and one bomber group from the numerous pilots joining the Armée de l'Air

Actually France de facto recognized Slovak republic and together with GB didn't pull its consul from Bratislava. But well I cna be mistaken. Anyway after March 1939 Czechoslovak ambassador in France, Slovak Stefan Osusky refused to hand embassy to Germans and it was him who started negotiation with France to create Czechoslovak army in exile. But while war started, many cs. evacuated from Poland were put int Legion Entranger.
They served all over empire. Some of them later in Bir Hakeim.

Separate squadron were planned but number of pilots serving in Ada. Mostly fighters. Some of them become top Aces during battle of France. 150 cs., 110 in fighter squadrons in France, 19 in north Africa, 7 in Syria, 14 in bombardment squadrons. cs. pilots shot down 147 planes, 19 probably. Own losses were 32 (21 KIA, rest MIA). From France to GB 906 cs airmen were evacuated.[/quote]

User avatar
KACKO
Member
Posts: 564
Joined: 31 Jan 2005 16:34
Location: Slovakia

Re: Czechoslovak army

Postby KACKO » 28 Jan 2018 20:46

Cekekb wrote:Through the war there were:

In Poland
- one air squadron
- battalion- sized "Czechoslovak legion", took part in AA defence

In France:
-1st Infantry division - 2 ingantry regiments and engineer company saw combat in June 1940
couple hundred airmen - about

In the UK
-4 RAF squadrons - fighter wing with three squadrons and bomber squadron
-Independent armoured brigade - besieged Dunkerque from October 44 until May 45

In the Middle East
-Independent infantry battalion - fought in Syria a in defense of Tobruk, later reorganized as AA artillery regiement

in the USSR
-Independent infantry battalion was formed in 1942, by the end of war there was army corps with four infantry brigades, a tank brigade and air froce division

Slovakia
Slovak forces during the 44 uprising were considered part of Czechoslovak army, even designated as "1st Czechoslovak army"

Indeed Slovak forces were larger part of Czechoslovak army during WWII in 1944. Some 50-60 000 men.

Czechoslovak Army corps later after parts of Slovakia were liberated started to grow too. By April 1945 from its app 100000 were 80000 Slovaks.

Also Czech and Moravia Protectorate had its own Protectorate army, I think 6 battalions. Many men joined resistance, some collaborated.
I believe Czech Gendarmerie was often used by Germans to chase Czechoslovak paratroopers/ diversants. One police officer was responsible for death of cs. General Luza, active in resistance but story goes Luza made some stupid decision and after war officer was acquitted.
Protectorate army was in 1943/44 sent to Italy.

Of course Slovakia created its own army in march 1939 which few days later (with support of many Czech officers and NCOs) was fighting defensive war against Hungary. In September 2 Slovak divisions, plus some separate units were used during attack on Poland, when territories lost to Poland in 1924 and 1938 after Munich were regained. Slovak Fast Division and Security divisions were since 1941 in USSR - Fast Division in Frontlines, and did relatively well - one of first axis divisions in Rostov on Don in 1942, other was in Ukraine and Belarussia as security forces. Some later deserted or were captured and become members of Czechoslovak 2nd Para Brigade which was app. 80-90% Slovak. It was i 1944 transferred to Slovakia during uprising there.

Fast and Security divisions were later reformed into infantry Labor divisions. One was in 1944-45 on Eastrn Front and one in Italy. interestingly Slovak divisions on Eastern front never had strengthen of division. They were more like reinforced brigades.

Of course Slovaks had their fighter squadron on Eastern Front since 1941. First on Avia B-534s later using Bf 109s. Some S-328 from 12th or 14th squadron were used to patrol against partisans. Pulled to Slovakia in 1943. Losses were relatively small. Gained number of victories especially in 1942/43 period.

- Czechoslovak fighter regiment - mostly cs. pilots from RAF (all of them Czechs) + 2 deserters from Slovak 13th Squadron. Air Division on other side started to be formed in fall 1944 from Slovak airmen evacuated from Slovakia during Uprising.

- In days when Uprising in Slovakia started, Slovak Eastern army - best armed troops were mostly disarmed. Mostly due to bad planning, mistake of it commanding officer(s) (General Malar rightly assumed Uprising started to early, but didn't realize it is to late to wait longer, he was arrested by Germans and later executed). But some managed to join partisans and some 3000 men under command of Colonel Markus managed to fight its way from Eastern Slovakia to center of Uprising. Parts of Slovak tank regiment in Eastern Slovakia joined partisan group Chapayev and cooperated with them in few attacks - lost some of its tanks and some were later destroyed by crews.

- In Italy in 1944 from Czech Protectorate army battalions and Slovak "division" Cs. division in Italy was created. Czech and Slovaks in Italy before that often deserted and joined Italian partisans.

User avatar
Loïc
Member
Posts: 624
Joined: 14 Jun 2003 03:38
Location: Riom Auvergne & Bourbonnais France

Re: Czechoslovak Army of France

Postby Loïc » 28 Jan 2018 21:35

hello
KACKO wrote:
Loïc wrote:France didn't recognize the news states, there was still a Czechoslovakian provisional government in exile and an Army like for the Polish
around 12 000 citizens were mobilised, even an Air Force planned for 2 fighter and one bomber group from the numerous pilots joining the Armée de l'Air

Actually France de facto recognized Slovak republic and together with GB didn't pull its consul from Bratislava. But well I cna be mistaken. Anyway after March 1939 Czechoslovak ambassador in France, Slovak Stefan Osusky refused to hand embassy to Germans and it was him who started negotiation with France to create Czechoslovak army in exile. But while war started, many cs. evacuated from Poland were put int Legion Entranger.
They served all over empire. Some of them later in Bir Hakeim.


actually we already had seen this last point here
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=188810
de facto not de jure, France was very reluctant to recognize Slovakia, diplomatic relations broken few weeks later in september 1939, such short-lived unofficial recognition was «caduque», French interests were delegated at the Spanish Embassy


Czechoslovakia still officially recognized in France
Image

User avatar
KACKO
Member
Posts: 564
Joined: 31 Jan 2005 16:34
Location: Slovakia

Re: Czechoslovak Army of France

Postby KACKO » 28 Jan 2018 23:42

Loïc wrote:hello
de facto not de jure, France was very reluctant to recognize Slovakia, diplomatic relations broken few weeks later in september 1939, such short-lived unofficial recognition was «caduque», French interests were delegated at the Spanish Embassy

Hi,
That’s what I said. De facto. Not de iure. Till Slovakka joined Germany against Poland to get back territory lost after Munich as well as get some extra.
Osusky as Cs ambassador in Paris was very active there, refused to close ambassy and did sone good work for Czechoslovakia. Unfortunately Benes didn’t agree with him on afterwar position of Slovakia as well as on Cs. afterwar foreign policy and duckedhim in 1942 from C government in exile in London.

Leros87
Member
Posts: 59
Joined: 17 Apr 2016 00:35
Location: Kent

Re: Czechoslovak army

Postby Leros87 » 30 Jan 2018 12:22

The remains of the 1st Czech Infantry Division (4938 strong) was evacuated to England as part of Operation Ariel (together with the Poles) just before France capitulated. They were housed at Cholmondely, near Sutton Coldfield, until moved out as the camp was to become a prisoner of war camp. The Division was reorganised as an infantry brigade group on 12 August 1940 but reportedly suffered greatly from internal political unrest during its early years. Its commander was General Cihak, who had led it in France. Before the end of the year he was promoted to be chief of staff to the Czech Ministry of National Defence.

310 Fighter Sqn was formed on 10 July 1940 and 312 Fighter Sqn on 29 August. Together with the Poles they were the first to be operational and were outstanding during the Battle of Britain. 311 Bomber Sqn was formed on 29 July 1940. In Nov 1940 some 1250 Czech Air Force personnel were recorded as serving with the RAF.

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 5543
Joined: 12 Jun 2008 11:19

Re: Czechoslovak army

Postby Sid Guttridge » 30 Jan 2018 14:52

Hi Guys,

If I remember rightly, the Czechoslovak Brigade was put to sealing off Calais in 1944-45. There it made one of the most useless captures ever taken by a landlocked country - a U-boat!

Cheers,

Sid

User avatar
KACKO
Member
Posts: 564
Joined: 31 Jan 2005 16:34
Location: Slovakia

Re: Czechoslovak army

Postby KACKO » 30 Jan 2018 16:27

Sid Guttridge wrote:Hi Guys,

If I remember rightly, the Czechoslovak Brigade was put to sealing off Calais in 1944-45. There it made one of the most useless captures ever taken by a landlocked country - a U-boat!

Cheers,

Sid

Czechoslovak armored brigade fought around Dunkerque.
Not sureabout U-Boat but 311 bomer squadron sinked German blockade runer Alsterufer in December 1943. Squadron also sunk at least obe submarine U578, demaged few and cooperated on sinking of others Ubists with RN orother squadrons. Funny for airmen from landlock country.

But well Czechs as well as some Slovaks had history in A-H navy. One A-H best submarine capitain was Czech.

And Czechoslovakia had kind of brown water navy. Small Danubian flotilla as well as Czechoslovak legionaries fought one ship on ship battle against Reds on Lake Baikal.

SloLiberal
Member
Posts: 10
Joined: 02 Mar 2018 11:54
Location: Slovenia

Re: Czechoslovak army

Postby SloLiberal » 05 Mar 2018 21:44

In the Middle East
-Independent infantry battalion - fought in Syria a in defense of Tobruk, later reorganized as AA artillery regiement


Also a battalion of Slovenian and Croat volunteers fought in Tobruk in March 1942 together with the British. Comanding officer was also Slovene.

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 5543
Joined: 12 Jun 2008 11:19

Re: Czechoslovak army

Postby Sid Guttridge » 06 Mar 2018 13:35

The Slovenes and Croats were Yugoslavs, not Czechoslovaks.

The Royal Yugoslav forces in exile also included air and naval units.

Sid.

liska
Member
Posts: 14
Joined: 31 Mar 2018 17:21
Location: brno, czech rep.

Re: Czechoslovak army

Postby liska » 01 Apr 2018 14:01

Sid Guttridge wrote:Hi Guys,

If I remember rightly, the Czechoslovak Brigade was put to sealing off Calais in 1944-45. There it made one of the most useless captures ever taken by a landlocked country - a U-boat!

Cheers,

Sid


I don´t thin so "useless". Especially till December 1945 (=start of direct cargo ship US-Antwerpen). Because all Normandy ports was partially damaged so it was important to eliminate potentional risk of counterattacks and/or sabotage from Dunkirk to allies ports etc.

Very import reason was to secure Allies pipelines (from UK to Boulogne and then Ghent, Antwerpen, Eindhoven, Emmerich)... route of Dumbo pipelines i guess was not so far from Dunkirk (?10-20 km?).

Tactical situation wasn´t easy. First - Germany position was similar to letter U (plus combination of swamps/lakes,...)=advantage for defenders which were support with artillery. So i guess ideal ratio should be 2-3 allies against 1 german. Secondary reason was using mixed and not so well trained allies.

Overview of figures: besieged Germans was more than "attackers" Allies. 12k Germans with 400-500 pieces of artillery against 4,5 k Czechs/Slovaks brigade group with 200-250 light/medium armored vehicled. CZ-SK brigade was supported by 3-8k irregular French and Belgium volunteers (figures was changed as some volunteers was time to time constriped to regular French army). UK command also use Dunkirk siege as the "training grounds" for converted units. I.e. converted from anti-aircraft units in UK to light/heavy artillery units or infarty brigades for 21st army in Belgium/Netherland). Also Czech/Slovak brigade rose from 4,5k to 6k (source of manpower was from POWs czech origin forcibly recruited to Wehrmacht support units in Italian theatre)

Strategic position: circa 120-150k Germans (mix of wehrmacht, kriegsmarine, ss) was besieged in Atlantik ports. Mostly south French coast - La Rochelle, St. Nazaire ("Atlantik festung"... Hitler´s order). Just 12k Germans in Dunkirk of which was really dangerous. In Dunkirk. Especially combination with wacht am Rhein/Battle of Bulge.... Rest of besieged Germans except Germans was almost useless... too far from battles and important allies lines, too weak for counterattack, too isolate for partisan counterattack, too low supplies for using ports as the u-boot bases.

Conclusion: Till spring 1945 was very clever to use 4,5k (CZ-SK) allies armoured brigade to siege 12k germans in Dunkirk. Then (April, May 1945) due to long distance Dunkirk from battles should be armoured brigade changed for (French) partially trained units and use Czech/Slovak brigade to allies offensive to heart of Germany.


Return to “Minor Axis Nations”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: CommonCrawl [Bot]