Czechoslovak army

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Sid Guttridge
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Re: Czechoslovak army

#16

Post by Sid Guttridge » 03 Apr 2018, 14:16

Hi Liska,

I wasn't saying that the siege of Dunkirk by the Czechoslovaks was useless. I was saying that the capture of a U-boat was useless to a landlocked country like Czechoslovakia.

What was useless was the French attack on several Atlantic ports held by the Germans in the last days of the war. This was undertaken as a prestige exercise by de Gaulle who wanted to have liberated all of France before the final German surrender. It cost several hundred French military and civilian dead to no point as Germany surrendered before the operation was finished.

Cheers,

Sid

liska
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Re: Czechoslovak army

#17

Post by liska » 04 Apr 2018, 11:00

1) My mistake that i didn´t completely understood your post. Maybe, becouse I have no information that Dunkirk was U-boot base and some ocean U-boots was captured in Dunkirk after surrender in 1945. I have to noted that main goal of Allies with siege of Dunkirk was not captured town. Main goals was to completely siege nazis protect near logistics line (Pluto, Red ball express, safe accross from Channel to Antwerpen), and eliminate sabotages and/or midget submarines. Becuase French govertment prefer to have 1 undamaged Channel port (rest of frenc Channel/Brittany ports was completely/significantally damaged). That is the reason to prohibitoon using strategic bombers and significant heavy artillery firing and battle in the town. So 4,5k CZ-SK men of armoured brigade plus some irregular French/Belgium units,,... siege 12k Germans in Dunkirk suppoted by heavy/medium artillery (and only battle of small units happend - figure of Germans in Dunkirk reduced to cca 10,5 k).

According the logbooks of head Germans in Dunkirk (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Frisius) says that in Dunkirk were no useful ship except some fishing ship. http://www.vhu.cz/oblehani-pevnosti-dun ... he-strany/

The Dunkirk´s port was not completely destroyed (like Cherbourg), but was used just for provision firstly by S-boot and than (when near nazis positions like Welcheren island... were captured) by midget ship like Seehund https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_ ... 2%80%9345)
and page 112 from https://books.google.cz/books?id=72GCAw ... et&f=false

But I think that in the winter/spring 1945 some part of CzechoSlovakia armoured brigade could be moved away from Dunkirk (after Battle of Bulge) and could be very useful part of Allied during op. Plunder/Varsity. I guess that CZ-SK unit should be part of 21th Army Group (due to logistics reasons) and could help to VIII UK Army Corps and/or XIII US Army Corps to cross Elbe/Labe river. It is interesting that for example Rhine river near Remagen has wide cca 200-250m, so Elbe near Hamburg and Wittenberg is wider (cca 300-350 m). And some CzechoSlovakian had knowledge related to Elbe because for long years river Elbe was very frequenten river to brown river transit from CzechoSlovakia to ocean (1937 there were 2100 ships). And in Hamburg there were some areas which is (leasing/rental) property of CzechoSlovakia see Saalehafen, Peutehafen and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldauhafen. So I guess that CZ-SK armour brigade could be very helpful also during Battle of Hamburg.

And also CzechoSlovakian could help with looking for German technologies (due that 0,6 milions Czechs was forced to work in Germany as Totaleinsatz). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Epsilon.



2 According to question French goverment activities to rest of besieged nazi garrison.... I want make no comment to useless/useful purposes of French operations like Operation Vénérable https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_si ... a_Rochelle.

But I want notice that also it was very important for Allies to eliminate https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpine_Fortress (in 1944/1945 was not sure that it is almost mystery, not plenty of fortresses), trying to suspend Greek civil war (war was the question of years) and Yugoslavia civil war (war was question of weeks/months), both wars start/go-ons after defeated/retread Nazis. Also I think that France could be part to defeat Japan...see 0,5-0,6 mil. personell required to fight/or support British pacific fleet and some others unit to Burma/Malaysia campaign (compare upgraded/refurbished ship of French fleet like BB Richelieu and plenty well trained French navy personell without ships). And also to support Kuomitang in Chine which lost some battles at the end 1944 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Ichi-Go plus activites of Japan Empire in Vietnam (compare development after VE Day https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_ ... _Indochina)


Sid Guttridge
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Re: Czechoslovak army

#18

Post by Sid Guttridge » 05 Apr 2018, 13:55

Hi Liska,

A quick Google givers three U-boats captured at Dunkirk, but does not give their numbers. Perhaps this is a mistake for U-Jaegers, which were usually converted fishing boats.

liska
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Re: Czechoslovak army

#19

Post by liska » 05 Apr 2018, 17:04

Sid Guttridge wrote:Hi Liska,

A quick Google givers three U-boats captured at Dunkirk, but does not give their numbers. Perhaps this is a mistake for U-Jaegers, which were usually converted fishing boats.
Interesting. So I was looking for some details. Maybe I´m wrong, but it seems in Dunkirk were any u-boots. Just Seehund - which wasn´t in Dunkirk for fighting purposes but for supplying of rations for besigeded Germans. And back from Dunkirk with mails from soldiers. These supplying missions´s nickname was "butter torpedoes". But it could happend coincidence that some ocean´s submarine was in Dunkirk (see details of bunker for R-boot - last link below).

http://www.u-boote.fr/dunkerque.htm
http://www.sous-mama.org/la-base-abri-d ... g-121.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seehund#O ... al_service
http://battlefieldsww2.com/fortress-dunkirk.html

According to using Dunkirk port as the base for fighter activites of Third Reich... more dangeours than Dunkirk as the u-boot base could be Dunkirk as the base for small attack ships and/or midget submarines.

During autumn 1944 neariest base of K-Verband was Vlissingen (part of Welcheren) = cca 100 km to Dunkirk. And rest of K-verband bases during winter 1944/spring 1945 were not so far(=in Netherland). On the other hand - range of Neger cca 50 nmi. Range of Linse I don´t know.

Conclusion - it could be useful for Germans to travel from Netherland to Dunkirk, supply of fuel and hit the ships near by the Channel ports used by Allied. Probably after summer 1944 this wasn´t happend. Maybe because activities of Allied... I guess that besiged Germans in Dunkirk have to spent time, personnel and supplies to fight on the land, so there wasn´t which could be spent for fight on the sea https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eins%C3%A ... #Normandie

Pruitt
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Re: Czechoslovak army

#20

Post by Pruitt » 29 Apr 2018, 03:52

Basically the only reason the Czech Brigade saw action in 1944 was because the British Army was in real Manpower crisis. Really, an Armor Brigade beseiging a port city? The British Army had committed their last reserve (52nd Lowland Scot Division) and there was nothing left to send. All there was left in the UK was convalescing troops and people unfit for the Front. So many underage volunteers enlisted that the Conscript class was now really small. At the beginning of the war, the UK kept all enlistees in the Army in the UK until they were 19. First they cut his back to 18 and a half and then they started sending 18 year olds out. Keep in mind most males were out of school at 16 and looking for work.

The Czech Army was disbanded by the Germans after the country was halved. The Sudetenland was annexed outright by Germany. Slovakia got its own country, although they were forced by Germany to give a slice to Hungary. It was not long before Bohemia and Moravia was made part of the German Wehrkreis system and the men were conscripted into service.

The Czech Brigade in the UK had no way to replace casualties. The Poles could replace their casualties by visiting the German POW cages and taking all the drafted Poles out. No one did this for the Czechs. There was not a large foreign community of Czechs to draw on worldwide.

The Red Army was able to recruit Polish POW's into a Polish Division and then a Corps. I am not sure if they recruited Czech POW's for a unit.

The Slovakians got to create a Army and Air Force from Czech Army equipment left in Slovakian Depots. The Slovaks and Romanians insisted on keeping large reserves on the Hungarian Borders, so they never sent as many troops as they could have. When the Red Army reached the Carpathian Passes, the Czech government decided to swap sides. Stalin made an agreement to accept them, but then sat back and let the Germans crush the revolt.

Pruitt

Cekekb
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Re: Czechoslovak army

#21

Post by Cekekb » 29 Apr 2018, 20:59

After Invasion there were actually solid source of manpower for Czechoslovak brigade - "german" POW's - mostly Volkiste Volkdeustche from Czech Silesia and defectors from Czech/Slovak units in Italy. It even allowed formation of additional units within brigade which grew from about 4600 to 6100 by the end of war despite suffered losses.

While there was Wehrkreis Böhmen und Mähren, Czechs were not conscripted into German military forces, Hitler was personally opposed to idea of Czechs serving, citing precendent of Czech legions in the WWI

As to Stalin sitting back during Slovak uprising - look up East Carpathian Offensive/Battle of the Dukla Pass..... In which Czechoslovak army corps took part.

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KACKO
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Re: Czechoslovak army

#22

Post by KACKO » 30 Apr 2018, 18:57

Pruitt wrote:Basically the only reason the Czech Brigade saw action in 1944 was because the British Army was in real Manpower crisis. Really, an Armor Brigade beseiging a port city? The British Army had committed their last reserve (52nd Lowland Scot Division) and there was nothing left to send. All there was left in the UK was convalescing troops and people unfit for the Front. So many underage volunteers enlisted that the Conscript class was now really small. At the beginning of the war, the UK kept all enlistees in the Army in the UK until they were 19. First they cut his back to 18 and a half and then they started sending 18 year olds out. Keep in mind most males were out of school at 16 and looking for work.

The Czech Army was disbanded by the Germans after the country was halved. The Sudetenland was annexed outright by Germany. Slovakia got its own country, although they were forced by Germany to give a slice to Hungary. It was not long before Bohemia and Moravia was made part of the German Wehrkreis system and the men were conscripted into service.

The Czech Brigade in the UK had no way to replace casualties. The Poles could replace their casualties by visiting the German POW cages and taking all the drafted Poles out. No one did this for the Czechs. There was not a large foreign community of Czechs to draw on worldwide.

The Red Army was able to recruit Polish POW's into a Polish Division and then a Corps. I am not sure if they recruited Czech POW's for a unit.

The Slovakians got to create a Army and Air Force from Czech Army equipment left in Slovakian Depots. The Slovaks and Romanians insisted on keeping large reserves on the Hungarian Borders, so they never sent as many troops as they could have. When the Red Army reached the Carpathian Passes, the Czech government decided to swap sides. Stalin made an agreement to accept them, but then sat back and let the Germans crush the revolt.

Pruitt
There were not Czech brigade during WWII. If you ment brigade on Eastern or western front they were Czechoslovak brigades as armed units of Czechoslovak government in exile.

Slovaks sent something around 45000 men to USSR in early stages of Barbarossa but couldn’t support them that’s why Slovak participation later dropped to 2 divisions. One mobile and one security.
After Czechoslovak weapons were deplated Slovaks were planning to ordrer modrtn equipment from Germany and actually did so but Germany was not able to supply. Why to bother to sent more men to USSR if division there was barely equipped with some modern equipment.

Same goes for Air Force. Orders were placed but equipment not delivered.
Uprising started early, not as planned, lasted two months bot wss not able to support Soviets in Carpathian passes as Slovak Eastern Army was mostly disarmed by quickly acting Germans while most of Slovak commanders were acting slow.

Pruitt
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Re: Czechoslovak army

#23

Post by Pruitt » 01 May 2018, 00:52

The Slovokian Army was a bit limited in certain weaponry. There was an excellent 47mm antitank gun that was used by the Germans, but I am not sure how many were used. I would offer that different 37mm weapons were more common. The Slovaks also had weapon factories available. The ones in Bohenia/Moravia switched over to making German weapons. The German Mauser was copied. I think factories that built the Zb26 and heavy Machine Guns continued to do so. Czech machine guns were popular Ersatz weapons when there were no MG 34's available. I am not sure about Cannon and Howitzer production or vehicles. The Germans kept producing Czech tanks and modified them into Marders and Hetzers later. I have heard of Skoda and Tatra so I assume there was a thriving automobile and truck industry. I don't know where the factories were. A number of German Divisions were formed with ex-Czechoslovak Army artillery, so I wonder how much was available in Slovokia.

I think a factor was getting materials for the factories after 1938. What state was the mining industry in?

Pruitt

liska
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Re: Czechoslovak army

#24

Post by liska » 01 May 2018, 11:09

Pruitt wrote:Basically the only reason the Czech Brigade saw action in 1944 was because the British Army was in real Manpower crisis. Really, an Armor Brigade beseiging a port city? The British Army had committed their last reserve (52nd Lowland Scot Division) and there was nothing left to send. All there was left in the UK was convalescing troops and people unfit for the Front. So many underage volunteers enlisted that the Conscript class was now really small. At the beginning of the war, the UK kept all enlistees in the Army in the UK until they were 19. First they cut his back to 18 and a half and then they started sending 18 year olds out. Keep in mind most males were out of school at 16 and looking for work.
Pruitt
1. I can´t agree with your opinion "Really, an Armor Brigade beseiging a port city"?" I think that till February1945 it was very smart to use CzechoSlovak armoured brigade to siege Germans in Dunkirk. Reasons are above.
- first of all numerical superiority of Germans (=cca 12 thousands) against 4,5 t CzechoSlovakian brigade, some thousands of French(and Belgian) irregular units (consisted of partisans/vollunteers) and temporary presence of some British units.
- For example you can imagine impact if siege allied will be headed by British.... I think that for irregular French partisans would be hard to comply with British officers (after Mers-el-Kebir, Op. Exporter in Syria,...), so headed french partisans by (neutral) general Liška reduced most of UK-French problems.
- Also you can investigate tactical situation (see map
http://www.druhasvetova.com/?p=armada/c ... _Dunkerque),
where German defenders divided front to some parts (Germans flooded land - so siege army have to divided to some unconnected areas). So Germans could easy move their units but move of allies from sector to sector (in case of German counterattack) was very slow due flooded land. And Germans don´t forget has numerical superiority in artillery.
- And maybe most important - French goverment prefer to reduced bombing/heavy artillery firing to Dunkinkt, because it was last undamaged port in English channel/La Manche.

So, Mr. Pruitt what was better solution than use small unit with armored vehicles/tanks to besiege of heavy armed and numerical superiority of Germans?.

2. From February 1945 I agree Mr. Pruitt that using armoured brigade to siege Germans far from rest of WH was "waste of soldiers and weapons". I think that French goverment should send some other units and exchange CZ-SK armoured brigade. As I wrote CZ-SK brigade could be very helful in Allied advance in northern Germany, especially in battle of Hamburg (because Czech have large pre-war experience due sailing Elbe/Labe river).

3. According to your opinion "in 1944 ... the British Army was in real Manpower crisis" I think that it is not correct word. Better word is that British want solve more situations/objectives than they could/than they have enough of sources.
For example some new objectives which want British to solve:
a) Greek civil war - British send some tens of thousand to suspend ("2nd Brigade, Parachute Regiment and 23rd Armoured Brigade (later reinforced by 4th Indian Division and 4th British Division" http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ww2peoples ... 5136.shtml)
b) requirement of units (infarty) to suspend potentional conflict between 2 half-allies of UK - conflict between pro Allied Italians and pro Allied Yugoslavian (conflict due ethnics tension https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Istrian-Dalmatian_exodus
c) increase of logistics support for Allies in Burma Campaign https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burma_Cam ... 9345#Burma
d) support to pro-Allied Chinese in southern China https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_E ... nary_Force
e) build British pacific Fleet (according wiki - 670 thousands including logistics) including prepartion to landings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borneo_campaign_(1945)

Pruitt
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Re: Czechoslovak army

#25

Post by Pruitt » 02 May 2018, 23:08

The question in my mind is what else was available to "cordon off" Dieppe? The British Army was contracting and they deleted one division and converted another to a Reserve status. They still had to send replacements to the ETO, the Med and SE Asia. They did find some units by reducing garrisons in the Med. These had been already milked of their younger and more fit soldiers. They also sent in African units to some places. The RAF Regiment was even sent to the Dodecanese Islands.

The Indian Army helped out a great deal in Greece. They were also having replacement problems. Each Battalion had a different mixture of ethnic troops. The Indian Army was having problems finding Sikhs for instance. The solution for the Indian Army was to pull Brigades out after a certain amount of casualties and send from the Med back to the Middle East. There they could be slowly rebuilt or dissolved. I don't have the diary of the 4th Indian Division, but it is likely they were out of the line when chosen to go to Greece. I would suspect this was the case of the 2nd British Parachute Brigade and the 23rd Armoured Brigade. I can't say why the 4th British Infantry Division was sent.

There were not that many Italian units fighting for the Allies. The units that I can recall that arrived to face the Partisans were the 2nd New Zealand and an American Infantry Division.

The British were not that concerned about sending aid to China. That was mostly an American Engineer problem. I have been reading Slim's book and he was talking about losing most of his roadwork in Burma when the Monsoon arrived and wanted to take ports and rivers so he could bring in supply by boat. Before the Monsoon they were getting by on Air Supply. Any supply from India was done by the Indian Army and Indian units.

The British Pacific Fleet did some work in the Dutch Indies before joining the American Navy. Their logistics was routed through Australia. While there was talk about sending British troops, the British were actually sending them home (ie, wrong direction). There was a proposal for the "British" to send three divisions to help invade Japan. These were supposed to be a British, an Australian and a New Zealand division and none were selected or in training. The New Zealanders were actually demobilizing. The Australians and British would have had similar problems choosing a division. The Americans were also running into a similar issue as the men brought home from Europe expected to be demobilized. Supposedly the soldiers with the least time in service on Europe were supposed to invade Japan with Pacific veterans. My Grandfather was near 40 at this time and was working in an oil refinery at this time. He had four children. He had been exempted from the draft until now, but he was told he could now be drafted!

Pruitt

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Czechoslovak army

#26

Post by Sid Guttridge » 03 May 2018, 14:34

Hi Pruitt,

The British were short of infantry, not troops generally. They were retraining artillerymen and new intakes as infantry as fast as possible in 1944-45..

Several French Atlantic ports held by the Germans were besieged entirely by French forces, so there was an alternative to the Czechs available.

I suspect that the Czechs were used because they would have been wasted in the UK and were of use at Dunkirk holding down German forces. Furthermore, once in theatre, they provided as useful armoured reserve already on site should the need arise.

There certainly was a problem initially with replacements, the best of whom were probably sent to to the Czechoslovak air units, but as has been pointed out by Cekekb above, from August 1944 there were increasing numbers of defectors from the nine battalions of the Protectorate Army deployed in Italy. Furthermore, a Slovak Construction Brigade was also in Italy. Czech and Slovak soldiers from both (who were potentially of good quality because the Protectorate forces were regulars and some of the Slovaks had seen service on the Eastern Front) defected in considerable numbers first to the Italian partisans and then over the border to Switzerland, from where they went to liberated France and thence to the Czech Armoured Brigade.

Cheers,

Sid.

P.S. Weapons production in Slovakia was entirely in German hands. Factories in Slovakia produced considerable amounts of artillery that the Slovaks themselves could not get hold of. In fact, the Slovak Army, because it was smaller than the Czechoslovak formations it replaced, was well endowed with inherited weaponry and even exported some of its excess to Croatia. Furthermore, much of its inherited Czech weaponry was of good quality by international standards and the Germans continued to produce some models for their own use into 1942.

liska
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Re: Czechoslovak army

#27

Post by liska » 04 May 2018, 00:21

Pruitt wrote:The question in my mind is what else was available to "cordon off" Dieppe? ...
Pruitt
During October/November 1944 there was just a little to choose instead of CzechoSlovak armoured brigade to use for siege purpose. Maybe:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thiaroye_massacre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/66th_Infa ... ed_States)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4th_Infan ... ern_Allies

During Winter/Spring 1945 one of these, maybe:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_F ... E2%80%9345


BTW: We discussed the tactiacal situation during siege of Dunkirk/Dunkerque, not Dieppe. Most important difference is distance between besieged Germans and rest of WH (i.e. Walcheren island in recent time Autumn 1944). From Dunkirk to rest of WH ca 120 km. From Dieppe ca 350 km

Pruitt
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Re: Czechoslovak army

#28

Post by Pruitt » 04 May 2018, 05:56

None of these were British or Commonwealth units. I think the 66th Infantry Division was the last US Division shipped into the ETO before the Ardennes. They relieved the 94th Infantry Division and went to Brittany to contain 100,000 Germans in the Ports of Lorient, St Nazaire, Bordeaux, La Rochelle. The US Army used these ports to blood new divisions. I don't see them being available to go to Dunkirk. I don't see how a bunch of Senegalese in Africa could have gone in. The French were trying to replace their African troops in France. I am confused by the 4th Infantry article, is one of the many Polish units listed?

The Czech Armoured Brigade was reinforced by the 7th Royal Tank Regiment and the 107th AA Brigade. I don't think anyone expected them to take the place. There was a Dutch brigade (Princess Irene) and a Belgian Brigade (three companies?).

Pruitt

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Czechoslovak army

#29

Post by Sid Guttridge » 04 May 2018, 14:39

Hi Pruitt,

I was not aware US divisions were used on the Atlantic coast south of Brest after it was taken. As I understand it, FFI forces were built up there and when these ports were finally attacked in the last weeks of the war it was entirely with Free French ground troops. (Bourdeaux was in French hands).

The French certainly were engaged in replacing black African troops with white metropolitan Frenchmen, who were thought better suited to winter campaigning, in 1944-45, but they bwere not repatriated. If I remember correctly, the French began to form the African units into two divisions (Division Coloniale d’Extrême-Orient - DCEO) based in the south of France with a view to using them to reoccupy Indo-China. There were therefore plenty of French colonial troops available to besiege Dunkirk. I suspect the logistics of using them or American forces equipped with US equipment in a British theatre made it impracticable to employ either against Dunkirk.

Cheers,

Sid.

Pruitt
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Re: Czechoslovak army

#30

Post by Pruitt » 04 May 2018, 17:13

Most of the French Troops that were landed in the South of France were equipped with American equipment. The units raised in Metropolitan France were given old French equipment. There was a need for French troops to reinforce the French Army in Alsace and Lorraine. I don't see the troops being raised for service in Indochina as being ready to go anywhere yet. The Alpine Division on the Italian Border was made of local FFI troops and was oversized. The terrain here precluded offensive actions on both sides.

When the British were serious about taking a Channel Port, they used Canadian troops. The Canadian Army was having replacement problems, but was not as bad off as the British, yet.

The French Army had an agreement with the US that the Americans would furnish equipment for 10 French Divisions (5 Armor, 5 Infantry). There was also a division with British equipment. DeGaulle tried to get more American equipment, but failed.

Pruitt

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