Pruitt wrote:liska wrote:Just now I am busy. Sorry for short/partial reply to our discussion related to available allied unit for using in Western Europe theater during autumn 1944.
Pruitt wrote:I am confused by the 4th Infantry article, is one of the many Polish units listed?
Pruitt
According english wiki (link above):
"4th Division organized by the western Allies
Following the Polish defeat in 1939, the 4th Infantry Division was reconstituted in France, under the command of Stanisław Franciszek Sosabowski. The 4th was assigned to a training camp in Parthenay, in western France. The French high command was reluctant to give the 4th Infantry Division weapons sorely need at the front, so the 4th was forced to train with pre-World War I weapons. By the time of the German invasion of France, only around 3,500 men, out of 11,000, of the 4th Division had been armed. When the impending French defeat became apparent, Sosabowski ordered his forces to retreat to the Atlantic coast. 6,000 Polish soldiers were evacuated from La Pallice, a harbor near La Rochelle, France.[1] In June they were evacuated for England, and the 4th Infantry Division was again reconstituted in Scotland, under the Polish I Corps, along with the Polish 1st Armored Division, the 1st Independent Parachute Brigade, and the 16th Independent Armored Brigade. The 4th Division was charged with coastal defense of eastern Scotland, against the threat of a German invasion from Norway. This western incarnation of the 4th Division saw no combat after the defeat of France in 1940, and was inactivated in 1947"
some details in polish language:
https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/4_Dywizja_Piechoty_(PSZ).
I´m not sure, but it looks like that 4th polish division was not part of partially phantom armies... see list of mixture real/fictional units used for Fortitude North- "invasion" in Norway.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation ... tude_North
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Ar ... tude_North
I understand the the division was incomplete (see link with polish wiki), but what a pity that they didn´t fight.
I went through my Nafziger's Order of Battle of the British Army from 1944-45. There is no 4th Polish Division listed at all. One would have thought that the Polish Corps in Italy could have used these troops. By April, 45 the two (3rd, 5th) Polish Divisions in Italy had finally raised six Infantry Brigades. They could have used the 4th Division's troops as a Cadre to get there sooner. There was no 16th Polish Armor Brigade listed either. Until we see better data, I am going to assume both were used to hold replacements for the fighting units.
By the way, the French Army did not have enough Artillery, Antitank weapons or Signals to arm the new divisions they were raising either. They were lucky to get to the UK.
Pruitt
Ad Polish dividision as a possible alternative to use for siege of Dunkirk instead armoured (CzechoSlovakian) brigade
According wiki this unit nominally was part of I st Polish corps, not part of IInd Polish corps. According polish wiki this unit transfer some (armored/mechanized) part to 1st polish divison during May 1944. Using 4th division as the replacement unit is possible, till VE-day 1945 according wiki this unit was completed to 80% standards. Maybe some other information should be found in information related to head of this unit
http://historiapolski.eu/viewtopic.php?t=3622 (=former name of this unit was "2 Dywizja Grenadierów Pancernych (kadrowa)").
Conclusion: I think we both agree that during autumn 1944 there were very few alternative to use for siege of Dunkirk instead armoured (CzechoSlovakian) brigade - I think during conditions that French goverment don´t want strategic bombing/massive using of heavy altillery against Germans in Dunkirk, because Dunkirk was last undamaged port in France in English Channel/La Manche.
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My personnal opinion some years age was fully of doubts/questions why Dunkirk wasn´t captured and why for siege was used armoured brigade. Also according memories of some Czech and Slovaks veterans they prefer to fight in Germany (and liberate cca hundreds thousand Czechs and Slovaks who were in Germany in concentration camps and/or as the forced labours).
But after years and after my visiting Dunkirk area I have to change my mind. My opinion is dividied to situation to Winter 1945 and after Winter 1945
1. Situation during September 1944-February 1945 - Using armoured unit to besiege numerical superiority Germans was very suitable and smart
I change my mind when I investigate - Using armoured unit (i.e. with tanks and APC) during situation that some 4,5 thousands regular soldiers (CZ-SK) and cca 6 thousands irregular soldiers (french/belgian partisans) fight against cca 12-13 thousand Germans who have significant numerical superiority in heavy/medium artillery. And during situation that during autumn/winter 1944 Allied were in logistical crisis (=most of liberated atlantic ports were mostly damaged, as Allied made advance so lengthen the supply line, no one port for transcontinental traffic was available). So my opinion is the tanks/APC prevented potentional of small unit actions besieged Germans which could damaged allied supply line routed near Dunkirk).
So, the goal to eliminate attack from besieged Dunkirk to Allied logistics was achieved.
See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_Ball_Express (=despite fear from Germans infarty/partisans attack just only Germans attacks were from Luftwaffe) and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_l ... y_Campaign
2. Situation during February 1945 - VE day - My mind is that CZ-SK should be replaced and used to support and/or grow up Allied advance to Germany during Winter/Spring 1945. Probably for homeland French (FFI) unit.
During winter 1944/45 the logistics situation was improved (increase of supply (Antwerpen) and reduced consumption because of winter). And allied advance (captured Walcheren island, delta of Scheldt river) made that besieged Germans were very far from rest Germans. And CzechoSlovaks armoured brigade had some unique skills (knowledge of Hamburg area, Elbe river, improve strenght from 4,5 to 6,5-7 thousand men and knowledge of German language in most of CzechoSlovaks).
3. "What if"
So it should more effective to exchange CZ-SK brigade for some other allied unit, probably inexperienced infarty with combination of converted (heavy/medium) AA artillery (because of surplus of AA unit due reducing of V-1 attack).
I agree that British / Commonwealth unit probably haven´t available infarty unit (because what was available was for other WW2 purpose like op Doomsday). Maybe French (FFI) had some unit and had surplus of soldiers. So French army made active ops against Germans who were far far away from rest of Germans and near besieged Germans were no Allied neuralgic bases (compare with Pluto pipeline near Dunkirk)
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantikfestung.
For example some part of the French/US attack unit cca 75 thousand which were used against Royan (1000 km far from Rhein river) should be used to besiege Dunkirk
http://codenames.info/operation/venerable/
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poche_de_ ... e_de_Grave
I´m not sure if will be suitable to use Dutch unit to besiege Dunkirk (because better impact of using this unit should be in the Netherland to rush attack to Germans) According wiki in Netherlands Germans maintan hundreds thousand army (some estimated of POWs till VE-day was 120 thousand Germans only in Netherland
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_ ... rld_War_II).
As you wrote, dear Mr. Pruitt, "the French Army did not have enough Artillery, Antitank weapons or Signals to arm the new divisions they were raising either"... For besiege Dunkirk the not need huge amount of these sort of equipment. Because British had surplus of artillery (AA artillery after reducing V-1 attack to UK). And Germans in Dunkirk had none or very small amout of vehicles (and horses were "transformed" for meals) so numerical superiority Germans with medium/heavy artillery was useless for attack against allied logistic. Germans in Dunkirk had no tanks/APC.
But more important for siege Allied unit was amphibious equipment because Germans connect inland and sea channel for systematic flooding field in contact with Allied. See some maps (red line Allied unit)
http://hartmann.valka.cz/udalostiww2/cz ... kerque.jpg. Accoring my personal inteview with CZ-SK veterans from Dunkirk the suddenly and fast flooding field in combination with huge amout of firing heavy artillery was best weapon of German.