Romanian 18th and 20th Infantry Divisions training by Germans

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CNE503
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Romanian 18th and 20th Infantry Divisions training by Germans

Post by CNE503 » 11 Feb 2019 15:51

Hello,

As of mid-February 1941, these two divisions were trained by the German 16. Panzer-Division in Romania.
As far as I know, I./Schützen-Regiment 64 provided training for Divizia 18 Infanterie in Mercurea-Ciuc, while Stab Schützen-Regiment 64 in Sibiu and Kradschützen-Bataillon 16 in Sebes provided it for Divizia 20 Infanterie.
Does anyone know more about these training sessions?
Where were located the divisional headquarters for these two divisions (Alba Iulia for the Divizia 20 Infanterie, I guess)?

Regards,

CNE503
"Sicut Aquila" / "Ils s'instruisent pour vaincre" / "par l'exemple, le coeur et la raison" / "Labor Omnia Vincit"

Peter89
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Re: Romanian 18th and 20th Infantry Divisions training by Germans

Post by Peter89 » 11 Feb 2019 20:16

Hello CNE503, have you seen my comment regarding one of your former posts? :) If you need more info feel free to ask!

AFAIK the Romanian 18th ID could not be trained in Csikszereda (Miercurea Ciuc) in 1941 as it was annexed to the Kingdom of Hungary in 1940 (Second Vienna Award).

CNE503
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Re: Romanian 18th and 20th Infantry Divisions training by Germans

Post by CNE503 » 11 Feb 2019 22:12

Hello Peter, yes I saw them! That was perfect!
Concerning Miercurea Ciuc, I was probably wrong. But the Germans established a training center in "Mercurea" (German spelling). I probably misidentified the town, but what could it have been?

Cheers,

CNE503
"Sicut Aquila" / "Ils s'instruisent pour vaincre" / "par l'exemple, le coeur et la raison" / "Labor Omnia Vincit"

CNE503
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Re: Romanian 18th and 20th Infantry Divisions training by Germans

Post by CNE503 » 11 Feb 2019 22:14

Probably this one: Miercurea Sibiului ("Miercurea Sibiului este un oraş din judeţul Sibiu, situat în Podişul Secaşelor, pe râul Secaş. Până la 17 februarie 1968 localitatea Miercurea Sibiului s-a numit Mercurea"). It's a town located between Sibiu und Sebes (so NOT in Hungary after August 1940!).

Thank you for your correction, I really appreciate it!
CNE503
"Sicut Aquila" / "Ils s'instruisent pour vaincre" / "par l'exemple, le coeur et la raison" / "Labor Omnia Vincit"

Peter89
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Location: Hungary

Re: Romanian 18th and 20th Infantry Divisions training by Germans

Post by Peter89 » 12 Feb 2019 08:01

CNE503 wrote:
11 Feb 2019 22:14
Probably this one: Miercurea Sibiului ("Miercurea Sibiului este un oraş din judeţul Sibiu, situat în Podişul Secaşelor, pe râul Secaş. Până la 17 februarie 1968 localitatea Miercurea Sibiului s-a numit Mercurea"). It's a town located between Sibiu und Sebes (so NOT in Hungary after August 1940!).

Thank you for your correction, I really appreciate it!
CNE503
I agree, this town is also near the other training centres. The Hungarian Wiki explicitly confirms it.

You are welcome, friend. I'm always happy to help!

CNE503
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Re: Romanian 18th and 20th Infantry Divisions training by Germans

Post by CNE503 » 15 Feb 2019 17:26

Hello,

Do you know where was established Divizia 18 Infanterie headquarters early 1941?
I'm pretty sure that Divizia 20 Infanterie ones were in Alba Iulia, but I have no clue for the 18th...

Thank you.
Regards,

CNE503
"Sicut Aquila" / "Ils s'instruisent pour vaincre" / "par l'exemple, le coeur et la raison" / "Labor Omnia Vincit"

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Romanian 18th and 20th Infantry Divisions training by Germans

Post by Sid Guttridge » 16 Feb 2019 13:18

Hi CNE503,

I was under the impression that the only Romanian divisions to receive extensive German training were the 5th, 6th and 13th Infantry Divisions in the vicinity of Ploiesti.

16th Pz. Division was a very new formation, only three months old in February 1941, although it had previously been an active infantry division.

Cheers,

Sid.

CNE503
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Re: Romanian 18th and 20th Infantry Divisions training by Germans

Post by CNE503 » 16 Feb 2019 13:51

Hi Sid,

Actually, your impression is wrong as was mine which was very similar a couple of months ago.
16. Panzer-Division KTB as well as 13. Panzer-Division one and Deutsches Heeresmission in Rumänien archives indicate clearly that 16. Panzer-Division was tasked with training Romanian 13th, 18th and 20th Infantry Divisions in central Romania and Transylvania as of mid-February 1941, as well as doing so for the Romanian 1st Armored Division in cooperation with its sister unit. 13. Panzer-Division concentrated its efforts on Romanian 5th and 6th Infantry Divisions in Moldavia.
These two divisions led also general training programs for Romanian officers and NCOs not dedicated to a specific unit in several "Ausbildungszentren" (two for infantrymen, two for artillerists, one for tanks, one for engineers, one for signals, one for railway engineers, one for armored cavalry). They trained in these centers between 3 400 and 4 000 Romanian officers and NCOs between late November 1940 and mid-May 1941.

16. Panzer-Division was actually not a brand new formation: its Panzer-Regiment 2 was a crack regiment from 1. Panzer-Division, its Schützen-Regimenter 64 and 79 served under 16. Infanterie-Division in the west in May-June 1940, etc. Its artillery regiment was quite new, as well as its motorcycle battalion, but its units were battle-hardened and just need to practice training together (as they did so for a part of them between August and December 1940). It is quite the same story than for the 13. Panzer-Division which was only an evolution of the crack 13. Infanterie-Division (motorisiert) reinforced with an experienced tank regiment (Panzer-Regiment 4 from 2. Panzer-Division).
A good point for you though: 16. Panzer-Division was sent in Romania between December 13th and 27th, 1940, detraining in the southwestern corner of the country. It was sent in a matter of days to Transylvania and central Romania in January 1941 and began its training duty in the last days of January and in early February, even later in some locations. But the division was sent to Bulgaria late March 1941 to participate to "Marita" (keeping an eye on Turkey and deterring any Turkish action), and then sent back to Germany in late April. So it did participate to the training program, but only for two months at the best.

My current academic research in a French university is on this very topic ;)
If you're interested I will send it to you, even if it's in French (full title: the German military mission in Romania [September 1940-June 1941]: tactical asset, political role, strategic ambition, a security forces assistance program serving the nazi grand strategy in the East).
Unfortunately, I miss some very basic informations (like the location of 18th Infantry Division HQ) while I'm lurching under a full load of very detailed ones!

Regards,

CNE503
"Sicut Aquila" / "Ils s'instruisent pour vaincre" / "par l'exemple, le coeur et la raison" / "Labor Omnia Vincit"

CNE503
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Re: Romanian 18th and 20th Infantry Divisions training by Germans

Post by CNE503 » 16 Feb 2019 14:03

For instance, attached are the task organization between Lehrstäbe R I (13. Panzer-Division) and R II (16. Panzer-Division) for training the Romanian divisions on January 31st, 1941* and the general deployment of 16. Panzer-Division on the same day.

* Romanian 5th and 6th Infantry Divisions in Moldavia were trained by Lehrstab R I, 13th, 18th and 20th Infantry Divisions in central Romania by Lehrstab R II. 1st Armored Division was trained by both.
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"Sicut Aquila" / "Ils s'instruisent pour vaincre" / "par l'exemple, le coeur et la raison" / "Labor Omnia Vincit"

CNE503
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Location: Bourges, Berry, France

Re: Romanian 18th and 20th Infantry Divisions training by Germans

Post by CNE503 » 21 Feb 2019 13:39

To be correct, Lehrstab R I (13. Panzer-Division) retained training activities in Ploesti over a third of the 13th Infantry Division (7th Infantry Regiment and 9th Artillery Regiment) while Lehrstab R II (16. Panzer-Division) took responsibility over those for the other two-thirds in Brasov (22nd and 89th Infantry Regiments, 41st Artillery Regiment).

CNE503
"Sicut Aquila" / "Ils s'instruisent pour vaincre" / "par l'exemple, le coeur et la raison" / "Labor Omnia Vincit"

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