Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

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Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

Post by Futurist » 12 Jan 2020 06:03

Steve wrote:
12 Jan 2020 01:37
Hitler met Horthy at Klessheim near Saltzberg on 16-17 April 1943. The following is taken from: - Hitler 1936 -1945 Nemesis by Ian Kershaw page 182/3. His source is Staatsmanner und Diplomaten bei Hitler. Vertrauliche Aufzeichnungen 1942 – 1944, ed Andreas Hillgruber, Munich 1969.

Horthy mentioned that despite tough measures criminality and the black market were flourishing. Hitler said that the Jews were to blame and Horthy asked what was he expected to do with the Jews. He had taken away their economic livelihood; he could scarcely have them all killed. Ribbentrop intervened, saying that the Jews must be “annihilated (vernichtet)” or locked up in concentration camps. There was no other way. Hitler now gave Horthy various statistics about the strength of Jewish influence in Germany. Saying that when left to themselves they had only produced misery and dereliction and that they were parasites. Poland was put forward as a model where things had been “thoroughly cleaned up”. If Jews did not want to work “then they would be shot”. If they could not work, then they would have to rot (verkommen). They would have to be treated like tuberculosis bacilli from which a healthy body could become infected. This would not be cruel if it were considered that even innocent creatures, like hares and deer, had to be killed. Why should the beasts that want to bring us Bolshevism be spared.

The case for Horthy not having any idea about what was happening to the Jews is surely seriously weakened.
Yeah, I mean, if Horthy was aware that the Germans were exterminating Jews in 1943 (and presumably trying to hide this from the world), why exactly would he be so naive to believe German promises that Greater Hungary's Jews were not going to get murdered after their deportation in 1944?

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Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

Post by Futurist » 12 Jan 2020 06:08

steppewolf wrote:
08 Jan 2020 10:41
It depends from what point of view you look at. Fro the point of view of Jewish population, certainly this move caused hundred of thousands of death and unleash not only the Reich's forces against them but own Hungarian pro-Nazi party, Arrow Cross.
Yep. :( In fact, the only reason that most of Budapest's Jews were saved was because of the efforts of people such as Raoul Wallenberg and Carl Lutz as well as due to the fact that the Nazis and their Hungarian Arrow Cross collaborators simply ran out of time.
From Horthy's point of view it was normal to seek a separate peace. The war was anyway lost in late 1943 and Hungary's engagement in the East wasn't whole hearted as they send there the 2nd Army which wasn't considered the best, its divisions being "light" (2 regiments) compared with normal infantry divisions of 3 regiments. 1st Hungarian Army was the main fighting force while 3rd Army was still under organization. During its 1 year activity on Eastern front, the 2nd Hungarian Army's losses were enormous, only about 25% returning after Stalingrad and after this the Hungarian involvement was symbolic.

Italy defected in September 1943, Allies were already in Europe, Soviets were in offensive and the 1940 borders of Hungary were only guaranteed by Hitler.
You mean Hungary's 1941 borders, no? After all, Hungary made some territorial gains in 1941 after the Axis invaded and conquered Yugoslavia.

As for Italy's defection, this was actually followed up by about 15-20% of Italy's Jews getting murdered in Nazi death camps. :(
Horthy tried all the time to keep relations with British Empire and initiated contacts with Soviets. The military involvement of Hungary in Eastern front was negligible and after Stalingrad ceased completely except some divisions with security duties and best units were kept home to rebuild and defend the borders.

Germans knew that Hungary was seeking a way out, Horthy was sloppy enough to make it pretty clear this fact and the country was occupied without any fight by Germans (Operation Margarethe I). Horthy put into power German's sympathizers for a short time to appease the Germans and then tried to build up the military forces, defend the Eastern border and looked for an opportunity to get out of the war, secretly negotiating with Allies.

During the summer, when the South Army Group collapsed during Jassy-Khisinev offensive and Romania declared armistice with Allies, Horthy was secretly negotiating with Stalin (through his son) which apparently promised sovereignity and autonomy to Hungarian state. There were also talks with Tito. However, when the war reached Hungarian territory (autumn of 1944), Hitler decided that it was enough in 15th October when Horthy declared an armistice with Soviets. Hungarian army didn't followed his orders which allowed the Germans to force him to abdicate. Szalasi (from Hungarian pro-Nazi party Arrow Cross) took its place and fought until the end.

So looking at this very brief description of events, while Hungary tried to avoid deportation of Jews (but still treated badly with Hungarian own variant of Nurenberg Laws) the main interest of Horthy and Hungary was to preserve the borders newly acquired in 1940 and nothing else. He even considered Stalin the lesser evil despite his anti-communism which shows he would have do anything to keep the borders, this was the main and only political objective.
Yes, that makes sense. Basically, the preservation of Hungary's 1941 (not 1940!) borders unfortunately appears to have been more important to Horthy than the lives of Hungary's Jewish population. :( Sad. :(

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Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

Post by Futurist » 12 Jan 2020 06:12

wm wrote:
11 Jan 2020 18:35
Futurist wrote:
11 Jan 2020 02:49
So, why not try to avoid Hungary getting occupied by Germany so that the Jews will continue to be ruled by the more civilized Hungarians as opposed to the Nazis?
Hungary was occupied because Horthy was going to betray the Germans, not because of the Jews.
Yes, but the reason that Hungary's Jews subsequently suffered was because of Hungary's occupation by the Nazis. Had Hungary not been occupied by the Nazis, who is to say that Hungary's Jews would have fared any worse than the Bulgarian Jews and the Jews of the territories of the former Romanian Old Kingdom fared?

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Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

Post by wm » 12 Jan 2020 09:21

That's true.
But reasonably his country was his sole priority. Hungary faced enslavement (maybe forever) and cultural genocide at the hands of the Soviets.
His country was ruled by the communists (led by a Jew btw) for a while already, he knew what it meant.

Steve wrote:
12 Jan 2020 01:37
The case for Horthy not having any idea about what was happening to the Jews is surely seriously weakened.
That proves nothing. In such circumstances he had to wear the skin of a good, little collaborator, a wanna-be Nazi even. The Germans were his (dangerous) enemies, and he was going to betray them.

He knew what happened to the careless Italians, seemingly safe behind the Alps and protected by their Army.
He didn't have any Alps and even an army. His country was defenseless against the Germans.

Futurist wrote:
12 Jan 2020 06:08
Yep. :( In fact, the only reason that most of Budapest's Jews were saved was because of the efforts of people such as Raoul Wallenberg and Carl Lutz as well as due to the fact that the Nazis and their Hungarian Arrow Cross collaborators simply ran out of time.
Because Horthy, informed by Roosevelt, the Pope, and his own people stopped the deportations.
I shall not tolerate this any further! I shall not permit the deportations to bring further shame on the Hungarians! Let the Government take measures for the removal of Baky and Endre! The deportation of the Jews of Budapest must cease! The Government must take the necessary steps!

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Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

Post by steppewolf » 12 Jan 2020 21:38

Futurist wrote:
12 Jan 2020 06:08
Yes, that makes sense. Basically, the preservation of Hungary's 1941 (not 1940!) borders unfortunately appears to have been more important to Horthy than the lives of Hungary's Jewish population. :( Sad. :(
Yes you're right, border of 1941 with territories reassigned to Hungary in 1938-1941 including Northern Transylvania and Transcarpathia, this is what I wanted to say.

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Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

Post by Steve » 14 Jan 2020 22:51

There is evidence that very likely Horthy knew about the mass murder of Hungarian Jews before August 44 which is what he claimed in his memoirs. Check the link below and scroll down to number 13 on the side of the document. There is a quote from the files of the representative of the Swiss Red Cross dated 30 May 1944. The representative was informed on May 13 by high ranking officials of the Hungarian government that the Jewish trains were going to Poland where modern equipment was available for gassing people. Did high ranking officials tell the Red Cross but did not tell Horthy?

https://journals.openedition.org/temoigner/998

The Vrba-Wetzler report on Auschwitz had reached the west in June 44 and at the end of June various world leaders asked Horthy to stop the deportations. The Jewish Agency in Switzerland sent a telegram to England on June 26 asking the allies to hold members of the Hungarian government responsible for the killings. The Hungarian government knew of the telegram and on July 7 Horthy orders an end to the deportations. He now had a problem because if he knew what was happening to the Jews he could be charged as a war criminal. He claims that he did not know till August which is after he stopped the deportations.

In my previous post I referenced pages 182/3 it should have been 582/3. My apologies to the hundreds maybe even thousands who have been thrown into confusion.

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Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

Post by wm » 15 Jan 2020 09:44

The "high ranking officials" said the Jews were going to be deported not that they would be killed.

It was virtually impossible that Hungarian officials were aware of what awaited the Jews, the Holocaust was a state secret, they shouldn't have known, they didn't need to know about it.

The Germans wouldn't tell them because obviously Hungarian authorities didn't need the knowledge for anything, actually, such knowledge would be a serious obstacle in deportations.

There is a hint there that the statement may be a later invention.
He says Auschwitz was in Poland but that, of course, wasn't true. Auschwitz was in Germany, i.e., the territories were annexed (not occupied) by Germany.
An unimportant difference to an ignorant representative of the Swiss Red Cross but no German and no Hungarian official would say the Jews were sent to Poland. They were sent to Germany.

Even more, Auschwitz was part of one of the largest industrial centers in Europe. It was reasonable the Jews were sent there, it was consistent with the agreement between Germany and Hungary.

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Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

Post by Peter89 » 16 Jan 2020 19:31

May I please remind you all of the facts here.

1.) Under Horthy's rule, many antisemitic laws passed (eg. the so-called Numerus clausus, the Első és Második Zsidótörvény, etc.), they were not simply aware of the persecution of Jews; they did it themselves.

2.) The opening scene of the Hungarian Holocaust was the Kamianets-Podolskyi massacre as early as 1941!! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamiane ... i_massacre

So YES, they exterminated Jews well before Wannsee or Auschwitz.

3. Tens of thousands of Jews were conscripted and pushed into "unarmed service" ("munkaszolgálat") on the Eastern front, and later, in the mines of the Balkans. These people were rather treated as slaves, they were dying by the thousands, and their officiers deliberately tortured them.

4. The people behind the Novi Sad raid were never punished. On the contrary, they were decorated or set loose to Germany.

5. The German occupation of Hungary in 1944 was a huge help for the Germans in economical and military terms. But the Eichmann Kommando counted like 50 people; the number of deported Hungarian Jews about 10,000 times of that number. YES, the Hungarian authorities and the military eagerly helped the deportation of Jews, just as they helped the deportation of ethnic Germans a few years later.

6. Sending away intellectuals like Miklós Radnóti or Pál Királyhegyi to work for the Germans as untrained handworkers in mines and industry? Seems fucking legit lol. It was like sending Stephen Hawking to work at a steel mill. Nobody believed that.

7. Miklós Horthy was a man of the past. A feudal overlord, a naval commander, a terrible politican. He sought peace with the western allies, even when such a peace was impossible. He knew that the Soviet occupation of Hungary means the end of his social class, so losing the war or peace with the Soviets meant the same thing for him: the end of his rule and the doom of Hungary. When he had to choose between his nation and his social class, he chose the latter. Thus, Hungary was really doomed.
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Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

Post by Poot » 16 Jan 2020 22:31

Peter89 wrote:
16 Jan 2020 19:31
May I please remind you all of the facts here.

1.) Under Horthy's rule, many antisemitic laws passed (eg. the so-called Numerus clausus, the Első és Második Zsidótörvény, etc.), they were not simply aware of the persecution of Jews; they did it themselves.

2.) The opening scene of the Hungarian Holocaust was the Kamianets-Podolskyi massacre as early as 1941!! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamiane ... i_massacre

So YES, they exterminated Jews well before Wannsee or Auschwitz.

3. Tens of thousands of Jews were conscripted and pushed into "unarmed service" ("munkaszolgálat") on the Eastern front, and later, in the mines of the Balkans. These people were rather treated as slaves, they were dying by the thousands, and their officiers deliberately tortured them.
Peter89,
I do not research the Holocaust, but other aspects of Axis history, including Hungary in WWII. I've been reading this thread with interest but lack the foundation that you and other members here have in this sub-topic. In the Wikipedia article you linked, it first mentions that 'Hungarian soldiers' took part in the massacre, but was non-specific about the soldiers' involvement beyond that sentence. The article itself notes that Hungarian authorities deported foreign Jews, making a distinction between them and Jews that could verify their Hungarian citizenship. It adds that the Jews who couldn't verify their Hungarian citizenship were then transferred to the Germans. In other words, the Hungarian involvement at that point was finished, and no direct action in the ensuing massacre is stated, or implied. There is no doubt that Jews were very badly treated in Hungary in WWII, but deporting is not the same as murdering. The article itself might be the problem, it is Weakapedia after all, but that's a separate discussion...

Sending other Jews to the Balkans to slave away in the mines is bad enough, but it was the Germans and the Ustashe who ran the show there, not Hungary. Again it seems that at that specific point in time, Hungarian authorities were deporting 'some' Jews but were not directly involved in murdering them,...yet. I'm not denying anything, just criticizing what appears to be an incomplete account from a problematic source. If there is other information on these aspects available in English/German/French/Spanish, I'd be interested to know.

Thanks,
Pat
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Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

Post by wm » 16 Jan 2020 22:54

Peter89 wrote:
16 Jan 2020 19:31
May I please remind you all of the facts here.
Have you heard about the Austro-Hungarian massacres in Galicia, and in Serbia?
About the brutality the Hungarian soldiers themselves were subjected to - by their own commanders? That torture was still (unofficially) used as punishment during the ww2?

There were things that were "normal" by East European standards: over-the-top reprisals, brutality, looting/rape/wanton murders by primitive soldiers who themselves were victims of abject poverty. The poverty that didn't make them noble, at all.

And there were things that were unusual - like outright genocide.

Was it better to be conscripted as a laborer and sometimes to be subjected to brutality, or was it better to be conscripted as a soldier and get killed at the gates of Stalingrad?
Which is your choice?

According to you, Horthy ordered a genocide just like that, despite being a Christian, despite being a Hungarian patriot. Do you know many people who are capable of that?

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Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

Post by DavidFrankenberg » 17 Jan 2020 03:10

I think that when Horthy explains that he knew only in the fall of 44 what happened to the jews, he sgould refer to what is known today as Shoah aka Final Solution or genocide.

Before this date, he surely knew about mistreatments towards jews and even mass killing, but not obligatory the systematic killings operated by the nazis.

Horthy was himself antisemitic, but did not want to kill, genocide, the jews.

Concerning the peace proposals with the Allies. Of course, we can consider it as a tremendous provocation toward Hitler.
But it was secret negociations... even if in the diplomatic world it was an open secret. But what could he do ? The hungarian troops had been swept since early 1943...
All tthe european allies wanted to return their jackets. It was also an open secret. Even Italy wanted to... Romania, Hungary, Italy had suffered such losses at Stalingrad that for them the year 1943 was the last...
Among the axis allies, the less discreet in those negociations were the Hungarians, surely because they lost all their army stack in the East... the despair was total.

Dont forget that the german allies were a bit constrained allies... many saw the alliance with Hitler as a no-choice alliance... it was alliance or total submission.

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Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

Post by steppewolf » 17 Jan 2020 11:30

Poot wrote:
16 Jan 2020 22:31
In the Wikipedia article you linked, it first mentions that 'Hungarian soldiers' took part in the massacre, but was non-specific about the soldiers' involvement beyond that sentence. The article itself notes that Hungarian authorities deported foreign Jews, making a distinction between them and Jews that could verify their Hungarian citizenship. It adds that the Jews who couldn't verify their Hungarian citizenship were then transferred to the Germans. In other words, the Hungarian involvement at that point was finished, and no direct action in the ensuing massacre is stated, or implied. There is no doubt that Jews were very badly treated in Hungary in WWII, but deporting is not the same as murdering. The article itself might be the problem, it is Weakapedia after all, but that's a separate discussion...
I would take wikipedia with a pinch of salt and recent (last 10 yrs) books about Horthy because there is an official Hungarian state political aim to clean up name as he was declared recently an exceptional statesman. . I've read one of his last biographies by Catherine Horel and I had the feeling I watch the romance movie about Sissi with Romy Schneider which is so far from reality :D

The phenomenon is much, much wider. And with deeper explanations, which relate to the construction of a new national identity in the former communist countries based on a falsified history. Communist phobia hides a powerful far-right revisionism on the anti-EU, anti-democratic and exalted nationalism of the 1930s. The rehabilitation of such historical figures is not a Hungarian phenomenon only. For example in The Supreme Court of Slovenia, a European Union member on Italy’s eastern border, nullified the 1946 conviction of Leon Rupnik, a war criminal trialed in Yugoslavia in 1946. In some Romanian some towns, in 90s- 2000s named streets after Antonescu but they were shut down in time by Government which passed a law to criminalize these type of initiatives.

Most of Hungarian historian agree that Horthy was an awful politician. Peter89 above makes a very good summary of his history with Jews. Also I think is over the top to consider deportation, forced labor and massacres as lesser facts then Shoah. Even if German camps were more gruesome, the outcome was the same...

Horthy was not helpless even after the German occupation in 19 March 1944. The deportation to Auschwitz was made with the help of Hungarian military and civilian authorities (military, police, railroad). The Germans simply didn’t have the personnel or the know-how without Hungarian help to organize such a mass expulsion, there were some small SS bands. After he received warnings from Western powers in July, he stopped the deportations...so how could he done it in July and not in March?

In fact Horthy did know about political violence even earlier in his career as a statesman e.g. during the quarrel of Bela Kun's revolution he tacitly supported white detachments.

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Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

Post by Peter89 » 17 Jan 2020 14:29

Poot wrote:
16 Jan 2020 22:31
Peter89 wrote:
16 Jan 2020 19:31
May I please remind you all of the facts here.

1.) Under Horthy's rule, many antisemitic laws passed (eg. the so-called Numerus clausus, the Első és Második Zsidótörvény, etc.), they were not simply aware of the persecution of Jews; they did it themselves.

2.) The opening scene of the Hungarian Holocaust was the Kamianets-Podolskyi massacre as early as 1941!! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamiane ... i_massacre

So YES, they exterminated Jews well before Wannsee or Auschwitz.

3. Tens of thousands of Jews were conscripted and pushed into "unarmed service" ("munkaszolgálat") on the Eastern front, and later, in the mines of the Balkans. These people were rather treated as slaves, they were dying by the thousands, and their officiers deliberately tortured them.
Peter89,
I do not research the Holocaust, but other aspects of Axis history, including Hungary in WWII. I've been reading this thread with interest but lack the foundation that you and other members here have in this sub-topic. In the Wikipedia article you linked, it first mentions that 'Hungarian soldiers' took part in the massacre, but was non-specific about the soldiers' involvement beyond that sentence. The article itself notes that Hungarian authorities deported foreign Jews, making a distinction between them and Jews that could verify their Hungarian citizenship. It adds that the Jews who couldn't verify their Hungarian citizenship were then transferred to the Germans. In other words, the Hungarian involvement at that point was finished, and no direct action in the ensuing massacre is stated, or implied. There is no doubt that Jews were very badly treated in Hungary in WWII, but deporting is not the same as murdering. The article itself might be the problem, it is Weakapedia after all, but that's a separate discussion...

Sending other Jews to the Balkans to slave away in the mines is bad enough, but it was the Germans and the Ustashe who ran the show there, not Hungary. Again it seems that at that specific point in time, Hungarian authorities were deporting 'some' Jews but were not directly involved in murdering them,...yet. I'm not denying anything, just criticizing what appears to be an incomplete account from a problematic source. If there is other information on these aspects available in English/German/French/Spanish, I'd be interested to know.

Thanks,
Pat
Hello Pat,

sadly, the Hungarian authorities ordered and carried out the deportation of Jews to the Soviet territories they occupied. "Uncertain citizenship" was a disgusting excuse, because the latest census in Hungary (which happened in January-February 1941) showed a tremendous increase in Jewish population. Also, a lot of Jews' homes were raided by the Csendőrség and the Rendőrség (rough equivalent of armed Police and Police), and many Jews with Hungarian citizenship were deported as well. (Please note the special "flavour" in Hungarian xenophobia and the Holocaust: the population hated the Jews, a lot of people owed them money, etc. So they helped the authorities to get rid of them.).

Here you can see some photo evidence of the Novi Sad raid and the Kamianets-Podolskyi massacre:
http://www.holokausztmagyarorszagon.hu/ ... pter=2_2_3

And a detailed description of the units involved in the massacre (in Hungarian):
http://www.betekinto.hu/sites/default/f ... ellert.pdf

It is a photo evidence where the German 444. ID requests help from General Karl von Roques. They claim that the Hungarian authorities deliberately push Jews to their territories without any means for survival, so "please send them back".
https://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%A1jl ... 7.1941.jpg

The 10th Hungarian Vadászzászlóalj (rough equivalent of a Feldjäger batallion) chased a thousand strong group of Jews across the Dnyepr, the Einsatzgruppe C chased them back. Indeed, the Germans refused to kill Jews as long as they could.
http://www.degob.hu/index.php?showarticle=19#_edn12 (in Hungarian)

As for the Balkan operations: one of the most famous Hungarian poet and writer Miklós Radnóti was deported by the Hungarian authorities, and when he returned with a forced march to Hungarian soil once again, he was killed by Hungarian guards after the hospitals in Győr refused to take in Jews.

Hungarian authorities were ready to deport, murder, torture, humiliate and rob Jews.

Just as they were ready to do the same with ethnic Germans a few months later.

I admit I do lack the English / German / French, etc. sources regarding this topic, because these events are not really important from an international perspective. Please do Google the keywords, I would only do the same. :)
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

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Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

Post by Peter89 » 17 Jan 2020 14:40

wm wrote:
16 Jan 2020 22:54
Peter89 wrote:
16 Jan 2020 19:31
May I please remind you all of the facts here.
Have you heard about the Austro-Hungarian massacres in Galicia, and in Serbia?
About the brutality the Hungarian soldiers themselves were subjected to - by their own commanders? That torture was still (unofficially) used as punishment during the ww2?

There were things that were "normal" by East European standards: over-the-top reprisals, brutality, looting/rape/wanton murders by primitive soldiers who themselves were victims of abject poverty. The poverty that didn't make them noble, at all.

And there were things that were unusual - like outright genocide.

Was it better to be conscripted as a laborer and sometimes to be subjected to brutality, or was it better to be conscripted as a soldier and get killed at the gates of Stalingrad?
Which is your choice?

According to you, Horthy ordered a genocide just like that, despite being a Christian, despite being a Hungarian patriot. Do you know many people who are capable of that?
I am not sure what we are talking about here. Horthy himself did not order the Holocaust, but he did next to nothing against it. Being a Christian hahahaha lol. Okay. If I recall correctly, the sixth of the Ten Commandments is about "do not kill". Thus no true Christians fought and killed on either side. You know who was a Christian in WW2? Franz Jägerstätter.

I would choose armed service, because they had better survival rates, better rations, better equipment, etc.

Besides, Horthy was not a Hungarian patriot. He was an international man, who grew up in international environment, who travelled the world, had a dragon tattoo (the symbol of a sailor's trip to China) and such. He knew next to nothing about Hungary and the Hungarians.
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

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Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

Post by Peter89 » 17 Jan 2020 14:48

steppewolf wrote:
17 Jan 2020 11:30
Poot wrote:
16 Jan 2020 22:31
In the Wikipedia article you linked, it first mentions that 'Hungarian soldiers' took part in the massacre, but was non-specific about the soldiers' involvement beyond that sentence. The article itself notes that Hungarian authorities deported foreign Jews, making a distinction between them and Jews that could verify their Hungarian citizenship. It adds that the Jews who couldn't verify their Hungarian citizenship were then transferred to the Germans. In other words, the Hungarian involvement at that point was finished, and no direct action in the ensuing massacre is stated, or implied. There is no doubt that Jews were very badly treated in Hungary in WWII, but deporting is not the same as murdering. The article itself might be the problem, it is Weakapedia after all, but that's a separate discussion...
I would take wikipedia with a pinch of salt and recent (last 10 yrs) books about Horthy because there is an official Hungarian state political aim to clean up name as he was declared recently an exceptional statesman. . I've read one of his last biographies by Catherine Horel and I had the feeling I watch the romance movie about Sissi with Romy Schneider which is so far from reality :D

The phenomenon is much, much wider. And with deeper explanations, which relate to the construction of a new national identity in the former communist countries based on a falsified history. Communist phobia hides a powerful far-right revisionism on the anti-EU, anti-democratic and exalted nationalism of the 1930s. The rehabilitation of such historical figures is not a Hungarian phenomenon only. For example in The Supreme Court of Slovenia, a European Union member on Italy’s eastern border, nullified the 1946 conviction of Leon Rupnik, a war criminal trialed in Yugoslavia in 1946. In some Romanian some towns, in 90s- 2000s named streets after Antonescu but they were shut down in time by Government which passed a law to criminalize these type of initiatives.

Most of Hungarian historian agree that Horthy was an awful politician. Peter89 above makes a very good summary of his history with Jews. Also I think is over the top to consider deportation, forced labor and massacres as lesser facts then Shoah. Even if German camps were more gruesome, the outcome was the same...

Horthy was not helpless even after the German occupation in 19 March 1944. The deportation to Auschwitz was made with the help of Hungarian military and civilian authorities (military, police, railroad). The Germans simply didn’t have the personnel or the know-how without Hungarian help to organize such a mass expulsion, there were some small SS bands. After he received warnings from Western powers in July, he stopped the deportations...so how could he done it in July and not in March?

In fact Horthy did know about political violence even earlier in his career as a statesman e.g. during the quarrel of Bela Kun's revolution he tacitly supported white detachments.
Exactly.

Horthy was a feudal overlord of the A-H Empire who was also a well-travelled sailor.
He understood nothing in the 1940's and his performance as a statesman proves that.

I never forget to note that an average Hungarian citizen was more antisemitic in 1940 than Horthy himself.

They voting rights were deliberately limited in Royal Hungary - in order to keep the far right from scoring a landslide victory on elections. The secret and universal suffrage was demanded by the far right extremists... (eg. Gyula Gömbös).
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

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