Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

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steppewolf
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Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

Post by steppewolf » 23 Jan 2020 13:27

wm wrote:
22 Jan 2020 23:43
With what, the police? The Army was fighting the Soviets.
He had been trying to exit the war for a year already, and it wasn't doable.
It would be good to check your facts before making such statements. After Stalingrad, there were no combatant Hungarian units on Eastern Front. 2 or 3 divisions were deployed in the back of the front for security duties and were briefly involved in Operation Bagration. 1st Hungarian Army was in defensive positions on Carpathians and deployed mainly around Northern Transylvania.

The rest of Hungarian army, 2nd and 3rd were in Hungary but at a lower readiness level. But you can't say Hungary didn't have troops in the country in 1943 and 1944. In fact, the Eichmann's SS unit which supervised the deportations was small, few hundreds and the deportations were mainly carried out by Hungarian Gendarmerie. Please check facts before making such statements.

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Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

Post by wm » 23 Jan 2020 20:25

So you want to resist the Germans with a few weak armies? Like the Italians and the Slovak did?
How many commanders would carry out the orders?
It seems not that many supported that armistice on 15 October 1944.

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Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

Post by Peter89 » 29 Jan 2020 09:16

wm wrote:
23 Jan 2020 20:25
So you want to resist the Germans with a few weak armies? Like the Italians and the Slovak did?
How many commanders would carry out the orders?
It seems not that many supported that armistice on 15 October 1944.
What kind of mentality is that?

Did the Finns ask how many or where they are? :milwink:

By the way, the Kállay Cabinet held back as much troops and resources as possible. No wonder that the economic exploitation of Hungary was so lucrative for the Germans.
https://youtu.be/UEDkKZ2uwmI?t=567 (Megszállás előtt = before occupation, Megszállás után = after occupation)

Again, Horthy bears the responsibility for this.
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

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Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

Post by Futurist » 23 Jun 2020 02:14

wm wrote:
22 Jan 2020 23:37
"already conducting a genocide against Jews" - nobody knew that - it was a state secret.

That Jews were killed in Russia didn't mean they would be killed in occupied Poland.
That they were killed in occupied Poland didn't mean they would be killed in independent Hungary.
Even Jews thought like that, especially the Hungarian Jews, they all arrived in Auschwitz ignorant of their fate.
David Kranzler in "Man Who Stopped the Trains to Auschwitz" writes that even in Switzerland nobody knew about the Holocaust at that time.
The Holocaust was invisible among all the killings all around.

The Nazis were vehemently anti-Semitic but not outwardly, see the German press or Goebels' speeches - they were antisemitic, but weren't violent.
So, what do you think would have happened had Horthy gotten access to the Vrba-Wetzler Report at the very beginning--as in, before the trains from Hungary to Auschwitz would have actually begun rolling?

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Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

Post by wm » 23 Jun 2020 11:11

The Vrba-Wetzler report was just two guys telling stories. All that against the high ranking, reputable German officials, and their words. In that case, the report was of little value.
Horthy resisted the deportations to work camps, so he should have resisted genocide even more.

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Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

Post by Futurist » 24 Jun 2020 20:56

wm wrote:
23 Jun 2020 11:11
The Vrba-Wetzler report was just two guys telling stories. All that against the high ranking, reputable German officials, and their words. In that case, the report was of little value.
Horthy resisted the deportations to work camps, so he should have resisted genocide even more.
When the V-W Report appeared in the Swiss press and then in the rest of the Western press in June 1944, though, it certainly generated A LOT OF noise in those countries!

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Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

Post by wm » 24 Jun 2020 21:21

Why it didn't appear months earlier? Who's responsible for that?

And it wasn't the report alone, there were statements from Roosevelt and other world leaders, and BBC transmissions.

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Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

Post by Futurist » 24 Jun 2020 22:15

wm wrote:
24 Jun 2020 21:21
Why it didn't appear months earlier? Who's responsible for that?
People such as Rudolf Kastner for refusing to share and distribute this report earlier, I'm presuming. Kastner was especially interested in the success of the Kastner train and was thus willing to throw the rest of Hungarian Jewry to the Nazi wolves--something that he subsequently (in 1957) paid for with his life.

Kastner still has an extremely bad rap even 60+ years after his death:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/on-quest- ... aboration/
And it wasn't the report alone, there were statements from Roosevelt and other world leaders, and BBC transmissions.
Those statements only came after the publication of this report, no?

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Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

Post by wm » 25 Jun 2020 20:42

I don't think the report generated a lot of noise.
Especially that the truth about the deportations was known independently from the report. For example, the NYT wrote on May, 10:
80,000 Reported Sent to Murder Camps in Poland.
May 7 (Delayed) — Although it may sound unbelievable, it as a fact that Hungary, where Jewish citizens were comparatively well treated until March 19, is now preparing for the annihilation of Hungarian Jews by the most fiendish methods. ...
Five and a half million Jews In Europe are reported to have been put to death In one form or another by the Germans since the war began. ...
Official diplomatic dispatches from Budapest declare that all Jews in Hungary are living in fear of imminent annihilation, from which there seems to be no escape.
(Kastner had his copy about May, 3).
So the American Jews knew and did nothing for the next month about it.

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Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

Post by Futurist » 25 Jun 2020 21:31

Huh; interesting! So, the New York Times was already aware of the Holocaust in Hungary in early May 1944. I do wonder if the release of the V-W Report made the Holocaust seem more believable to Western audiences due to its extremely detailed descriptions of how Nazi gas chambers and whatnot actually worked, though.

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Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

Post by wm » 25 Jun 2020 22:45

Nobody had any doubts about Auschwitz at that time.
580,000 Jews Perish in a Camp; Nazis Use Jewish Women for Sterilization Experiments
December 13, 1943
Jewish women interned in the Oswiecim [Auschwitz] camp in occupied Poland are being used by the Germans for “experimental sterilization” and for “artificial breeding,” a report reaching here from the underground movement in Poland reveals.

The report states that 580,000 Jews have perished in the Oswiecim camp from the day it was opened until the middle of this year. There were still 80,000 Jews left there this past summer, most of them brought to Poland from other countries.
The Jewish Telegraphic Agency
60,000 Greek Jews Murdered in Oswiecim “death Camp,” Polish Report Discloses
March 23, 1944
The 60,000 Greek Jews who were deported from their homeland to “unknown destinations” in the Spring and Summer of last year perished in the gas chambers of the dread Oswiecim “death camp” in Poland, it was disclosed today by the Polish Ministry of Information here. Most of the Greek Jews had been residents of Salonika or Athens.

The Polish report asserted that more than 500,000 persons have been murdered at Oswiecim since its establishment. Of these, the great majority were Jews, including, in addition to the Greek Jews, 50,000 from Czechoslovakia, 60,000 from Holland, Belgium and France, and tens of thousands of Polish Jews.

The Oswiecim camp has three crematoriums capable of consuming 10,000 bodies daily, the report asserts. The executions in the gas chambers take about fifteen minutes; immediately after which the bodies are taken to a crematorium. Because of a shortage of gas, Jews who were not yet asphyxiated were frequently placed in the crematorium, the report adds.
The Jewish Telegraphic Agency

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Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

Post by Futurist » 26 Jun 2020 08:47

And what about Horthy himself?

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Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

Post by Futurist » 26 Jun 2020 08:48

I also wonder just how much attention US and Western Gentiles actually paid to the Jewish Telegraphic Agency back in 1942-1944.

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Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

Post by wm » 27 Jun 2020 09:19

The people were irrelevant they didn't make decisions and censorship made sure they didn't get the wrong ideas.
But the governments knew and made the (correct) decision that nothing could have been done.

It would be really interesting to understand what Horthy knew and what he thought.
But that's impossible his biographies seem to be written by biased, hostile to him historians, eager to prove he was a "bad guy."

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Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

Post by Futurist » 28 Jun 2020 05:52

The fact that many--very possibly a majority--of the Jews of Budapest survived the Holocaust suggests that something could have been and had been done in regards to this. The crucial question is, of course, was it actually possible to act earlier and thus to save more lives?

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