Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

Discussions on all aspects of the smaller Axis nations in Europe and Asia. Hosted by G. Trifkovic.
Post Reply
User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 8753
Joined: 29 Dec 2006, 21:11
Location: Poland

Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

#91

Post by wm » 14 Jul 2020, 23:25

No, it's a mistake.
Ilona Edelsheim Gyulai claimed in her memoirs that in the months following the occupation she became part of a secret band of “conspirators” that included churchmen and Jean de Bavier, the Swiss International Red Cross Commissioner. The secret committee was in touch with Jewish groups, which passed on information about the rapidly deteriorating situation, and it was thus that Torok came to give Ilona Edelsheim Gyulai the Vrba-Wetzler report.

“As soon as Torok left I went down the spiral staircase to my parents-in-law’s apartment,” she wrote in Honour and Duty (2000). “Only my mother-in-law was there. I handed her the record... she was moved to tears and promised to give it to Miklospapa [Horthy] as soon as he returned from his study.” When he read it, she noted, he was “deeply shocked”.

Three days later, on July 6, Horthy’s government refused to carry out any further deportations.

Futurist
Member
Posts: 3642
Joined: 24 Dec 2015, 01:02
Location: SoCal

Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

#92

Post by Futurist » 15 Jul 2020, 00:01

Where's that text from?


User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 8753
Joined: 29 Dec 2006, 21:11
Location: Poland

Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

#93

Post by wm » 15 Jul 2020, 11:23

67875047_390403128331417_6154791948822511616_n.jpg
:)

User avatar
steppewolf
Member
Posts: 86
Joined: 24 Feb 2017, 08:38
Location: Bucharest

Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

#94

Post by steppewolf » 15 Jul 2020, 17:43

Peter89 wrote:
11 Jul 2020, 08:54
It's even worse than that. The main figure of the Hungarian culture management is a guy from Romania / Szeklerland, who is proud of his stance of despising everything that is not "Hungarian". Soon there will be little colours in the Hungarian culture or historical narratives, only this primitive, agressive, nationalistic view.

About 10 years ago, I was keen to identify myself as an ethnic German but a Hungarian national. Now I rather identify myself as an ethnic German and a European national. And I got tired of debates of Hungarian nationalists and whitewashers. This nation's collective view of history is simply not prone to learn from mistakes. On the contrary, it gets proud of what is the cause of shame in the civilized world.
About 15 years ago Romanian and Hungarian governments held common meetings. I remember I told myself back than that there is not long until we'll have something like French-German model of cooperation. How wrong I was.

I am not Transylvanian but I have few friends with Hungarian origins (from Hungarian families or from mixed families) and I follow Hungarian press and man, I have a feeling of 30s from last century. Don't get me wrong, we have out hot heads as well here ranging from sympathizers of Iron Guard to filo-Russians fans of Putin but they're out of mainstream or parliament. When a party tried this iliberal public speech (ironically a social democratic party, heir of communist party) it was harshly sanctioned at next elections (2019 EU ones) and keeps floating around 20% since then. Despite actual difficult economical conditions, it won't raise its number of voters with that speech and there are some internal fights to end it because it is obvious it does not work.

Also take a look on Quora, it seems to be an troll farm with all nationalistic views coming from Hungary. That's how I started to follow Hungarian state press and observed the efforts to repair Horthy's image.

And back to him, I don't think that is very significant his son was married with a Jewish woman. Antonescu had step brothers and sisters of Jewish heritage (the second wife of his father).

Peter89
Member
Posts: 2369
Joined: 28 Aug 2018, 06:52
Location: Europe

Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

#95

Post by Peter89 » 16 Jul 2020, 08:14

steppewolf wrote:
15 Jul 2020, 17:43
Peter89 wrote:
11 Jul 2020, 08:54
It's even worse than that. The main figure of the Hungarian culture management is a guy from Romania / Szeklerland, who is proud of his stance of despising everything that is not "Hungarian". Soon there will be little colours in the Hungarian culture or historical narratives, only this primitive, agressive, nationalistic view.

About 10 years ago, I was keen to identify myself as an ethnic German but a Hungarian national. Now I rather identify myself as an ethnic German and a European national. And I got tired of debates of Hungarian nationalists and whitewashers. This nation's collective view of history is simply not prone to learn from mistakes. On the contrary, it gets proud of what is the cause of shame in the civilized world.
About 15 years ago Romanian and Hungarian governments held common meetings. I remember I told myself back than that there is not long until we'll have something like French-German model of cooperation. How wrong I was.
The same here. On the December 5th 2004. referendum (about the Hungarian citizenship to ethnic Hungarians) I felt: yes, we are on the right path. The referendum failed, most of the society was either not interested (the referendum failed because of low turnout) in confusing citizenship with ethnicity or voted no (35%).

When Hungary voted for the Romanian membership of the EU, I thought: they must have solved the most important issues. Reports from minority rights' violations were little to nonexistant. Then, all of a sudden, after the system change in 2010, the government pushed through with the same story without any referendum or consultation. I felt disgraced. I even wrote a letter to every neighbouring country's embassy that the time had come again not to confuse Hungary with the Hungarian people, and please keep that in mind when the people will pay the price. Again.
steppewolf wrote:
15 Jul 2020, 17:43
I am not Transylvanian but I have few friends with Hungarian origins (from Hungarian families or from mixed families) and I follow Hungarian press and man, I have a feeling of 30s from last century.
This is so true, and connected to each other as well.

For example, I was born and raised in Transdanubia, and we never used this kind of language, because we haven't felt threatened because we are Hungarians. I recall that after the system change, when a lot of Hungarians relocated from Romania to Hungary, almost every single one of them was violent, agressive and contemptous. Back then, I had little tolerance for that, and I quickly developed a prejudice that diminished slowly. Later I figured out that it really mattered a lot from where the Hungarian from Romania came. For me it seemed that where Hungarians lived as a small minority, they got along better with the Romanians, and developed a docile or friendly behaviour. Mixed marriages, mixed workplaces, etc. etc. pushed them to be cooperative and tolerant. I took note of the join demonstration for peace in Cluj-Napoca ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pud1VnKQ5fc ), and it felt like a shred of Europe in the city of Mr. Funar. On the other hand, most people I've met from Szeklerland, where Hungarians are the majority, they do not like to cooperate or behave calmly. After a while I started to make a distinction between these groups.

Btw the same goes for Hitler, an Austrian who wanted to tell the Germans that they should be proud of being a German. Before that, they were just Germans and didn't care too much about it.

But otherwise, it depends on the press you are following. The state press and the government-influenced press is definately 1930's feeling. That is so because most of the influental characters in the Hungarian culture politics come from Szeklerland. I bet the friendly or docile tone of politics 15 years ago rang weird and alien to them as well. If I can recommend you a few quality papers to follow, try Heti Válasz, HVG or Magyar Hang (the latter printed in Slovakia, because the presses were afraid of retribution by the government).
steppewolf wrote:
15 Jul 2020, 17:43
Don't get me wrong, we have out hot heads as well here ranging from sympathizers of Iron Guard to filo-Russians fans of Putin but they're out of mainstream or parliament. When a party tried this iliberal public speech (ironically a social democratic party, heir of communist party) it was harshly sanctioned at next elections (2019 EU ones) and keeps floating around 20% since then. Despite actual difficult economical conditions, it won't raise its number of voters with that speech and there are some internal fights to end it because it is obvious it does not work.
Dumb nationalism, political insanity and pseudo-theories to justify national greed exist everywhere, of course, Romania is no exception. Like you said, the important thing is the majority, the mainstream.
steppewolf wrote:
15 Jul 2020, 17:43
Also take a look on Quora, it seems to be an troll farm with all nationalistic views coming from Hungary. That's how I started to follow Hungarian state press and observed the efforts to repair Horthy's image.
Yes, simply because they don't want to learn the lesson from history, they want to feel victimized. Just take a look: viewtopic.php?f=26&t=248855

No cooperation, no tolerance, no well-being of the people: be HUNGARIAN, because we are entitled to oppress other nations at our pleasure.
steppewolf wrote:
15 Jul 2020, 17:43
And back to him, I don't think that is very significant his son was married with a Jewish woman. Antonescu had step brothers and sisters of Jewish heritage (the second wife of his father).
His grandson is a Muslim. Which is quite okay, because - contrary to the popular belief - Horthy was an international man, a well-travelled sailor. The nationalist and anti-semite Horthy was rather a result of the nationalist and anti-semite Hungarian public opinion.
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19

Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

#96

Post by Sid Guttridge » 16 Jul 2020, 08:33

Hi Guys,

(1) Was it really true that the Hungarian Government only found out about the mass murder of Jews by Germany in July 1944? By then virtually every other government seems to have known. Indeed, the first news of the mass killing of Jews at Auschwitz had emerged from Slovak Jews fleeing Auschwitz to relatives in Hungary two years before. If Hungary was the avenue by which the rest of the world was first told in 1942, how come the Hungarian Government still didn't know in mid1944? Is that really plausible?

(2) If Horthy still had the power to order the suspension of the deportation of Hungarian Jews in July 1944, it strongly implies that he was more than just a figurehead well after the German Army moved into Hungary in March 1944.

Cheers,

Sid.

Peter89
Member
Posts: 2369
Joined: 28 Aug 2018, 06:52
Location: Europe

Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

#97

Post by Peter89 » 16 Jul 2020, 10:29

Sid Guttridge wrote:
16 Jul 2020, 08:33
Hi Guys,

(1) Was it really true that the Hungarian Government only found out about the mass murder of Jews by Germany in July 1944? By then virtually every other government seems to have known. Indeed, the first news of the mass killing of Jews at Auschwitz had emerged from Slovak Jews fleeing Auschwitz to relatives in Hungary two years before. If Hungary was the avenue by which the rest of the world was first told in 1942, how come the Hungarian Government still didn't know in mid1944? Is that really plausible?

(2) If Horthy still had the power to order the suspension of the deportation of Hungarian Jews in July 1944, it strongly implies that he was more than just a figurehead well after the German Army moved into Hungary in March 1944.

Cheers,

Sid.
Peter89 wrote:
16 Jan 2020, 20:31
May I please remind you all of the facts here.

1.) Under Horthy's rule, many antisemitic laws passed (eg. the so-called Numerus clausus, the Első és Második Zsidótörvény, etc.), they were not simply aware of the persecution of Jews; they did it themselves.

2.) The opening scene of the Hungarian Holocaust was the Kamianets-Podolskyi massacre as early as 1941!! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamiane ... i_massacre

So YES, they exterminated Jews well before Wannsee or Auschwitz.

3. Tens of thousands of Jews were conscripted and pushed into "unarmed service" ("munkaszolgálat") on the Eastern front, and later, in the mines of the Balkans. These people were rather treated as slaves, they were dying by the thousands, and their officiers deliberately tortured them.

4. The people behind the Novi Sad raid were never punished. On the contrary, they were decorated or set loose to Germany.

5. The German occupation of Hungary in 1944 was a huge help for the Germans in economical and military terms. But the Eichmann Kommando counted like 50 people; the number of deported Hungarian Jews about 10,000 times of that number. YES, the Hungarian authorities and the military eagerly helped the deportation of Jews, just as they helped the deportation of ethnic Germans a few years later.

6. Sending away intellectuals like Miklós Radnóti or Pál Királyhegyi to work for the Germans as untrained handworkers in mines and industry? Seems fucking legit lol. It was like sending Stephen Hawking to work at a steel mill. Nobody believed that.

7. Miklós Horthy was a man of the past. A feudal overlord, a naval commander, a terrible politican. He sought peace with the western allies, even when such a peace was impossible. He knew that the Soviet occupation of Hungary means the end of his social class, so losing the war or peace with the Soviets meant the same thing for him: the end of his rule and the doom of Hungary. When he had to choose between his nation and his social class, he chose the latter. Thus, Hungary was really doomed.
Long story short, Hungarian decision makers were well-aware of what was going on with the deported jews. Also, they discriminated and killed them themselves.

Regarding your second point, the mere fact that Horthy was able to stop the deportations in July, shows that the Hungarian authorities carried them out. The Eichmann Kommando was an organizational staff, not the infrastructure itself. So Horthy bears responsibility for units and the officials under his command.
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 8753
Joined: 29 Dec 2006, 21:11
Location: Poland

Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

#98

Post by wm » 16 Jul 2020, 10:55

What's your source for that?
According to The Politics of Genocide: The Holocaust in Hungary by Randolph Braham (i.e., an authoritative source) there is no credible evidence that Horthy knew.
Similiarily it's possible a few Nazi members of the government knew but not others.

Horthy rule was of the hand-off kind. And he informally withdrew from directing the government after the Germans humiliated him with their occupation of Hungary.

That "every other government seems to have known" is of course false - no government knew about the Holocaust of Hungarian Jews till it was too late.

User avatar
steppewolf
Member
Posts: 86
Joined: 24 Feb 2017, 08:38
Location: Bucharest

Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

#99

Post by steppewolf » 16 Jul 2020, 12:28

wm wrote:
16 Jul 2020, 10:55
That "every other government seems to have known" is of course false - no government knew about the Holocaust of Hungarian Jews till it was too late.
I don't get this, implies he knew about the fate of other Jews but he thought Hungarian ones will have a different one?

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 8753
Joined: 29 Dec 2006, 21:11
Location: Poland

Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

#100

Post by wm » 16 Jul 2020, 14:04

The knew what happened to Jews in the occupied by the Germans territories (and in Germany) - after the fact.

But Hungary (and for example Bulgaria, Finland) wasn't occupied, and the Nazis generally left alone Jewish citizens of neutral and allied countries. For instance, during Hungarian deportations, it was sufficient to have a passport of a neutral country to be excluded.
So they didn't know and didn't anticipate the development.

The deported Hungarian Jews didn't know either and entered the death trains totally unaware of their fate.

The Germans forced an agreement on the Hungarians that (for security reasons, because of the inevitable battle for Hungary) handed over the Hungarian Jews as workforce in the German armament industry, that actually was believable.

Sid Guttridge
Member
Posts: 10158
Joined: 12 Jun 2008, 12:19

Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

#101

Post by Sid Guttridge » 16 Jul 2020, 15:41

Hi wm,

The Slovaks had handed over most of their Jews to the Germans for "resettlement" in early 1942. They probably soon knew they were being killed at Auschwitz. They certainly knew when the Vatican told them and Tiso halted the process.

The first news the outside world had of what was occurring at Auschwitz came from escaping Slovak Jews fleeing to relatives in Hungary in mid 1942. It is therefore unlikely that Hungarian Jews didn't understand what being handed over to the Germans meant two years later.

Finally, Horthy was a strong Catholic with close relations with the Vatican, which had already told Tiso of the fate of Slovakia's Jews. Vatican Radio had begun condemning the fate of Jews in 1943. It seems unlikely that the Vatican would not also have told Horthy's government of the fate Hungary's Jews.

Cheers,

Sid.

User avatar
Poot
Member
Posts: 581
Joined: 29 Dec 2010, 04:38

Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

#102

Post by Poot » 16 Jul 2020, 18:02

Sid Guttridge wrote:
16 Jul 2020, 15:41
Vatican Radio had begun condemning the fate of Jews in 1943. It seems unlikely that the Vatican would not also have told Horthy's government of the fate Hungary's Jews.

Cheers,

Sid.
I wonder if by September 1943 when the RSI was formed and Germany took a more direct and forceful hand in running the parts of Italy they still occupied that the Vatican would have actually had fewer sources of information and less access to foreign countries and representatives than before. I'm not seeking to excuse anything or find loopholes for an argument, but I do wonder if there was a qualitative change in the Vatican's ability to operate in the way they had before.
He who lives by the sword, should train with it frequently.

Peter89
Member
Posts: 2369
Joined: 28 Aug 2018, 06:52
Location: Europe

Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

#103

Post by Peter89 » 16 Jul 2020, 18:43

wm wrote:
16 Jul 2020, 14:04
The knew what happened to Jews in the occupied by the Germans territories (and in Germany) - after the fact.

But Hungary (and for example Bulgaria, Finland) wasn't occupied, and the Nazis generally left alone Jewish citizens of neutral and allied countries. For instance, during Hungarian deportations, it was sufficient to have a passport of a neutral country to be excluded.
So they didn't know and didn't anticipate the development.

The deported Hungarian Jews didn't know either and entered the death trains totally unaware of their fate.

The Germans forced an agreement on the Hungarians that (for security reasons, because of the inevitable battle for Hungary) handed over the Hungarian Jews as workforce in the German armament industry, that actually was believable.
I think you don't get the point.

Horthy didn't need to know about the exact procedures of the death camps to be responsible for the citizens under his reign.

He authorized the deportations with HUNGARIAN infrastructure and personnel (police, csendőrség / gendarmerie, railways, the churches, the notaries, etc.), under the command (partially) of people whom he gave pardon for killing Jews, like the aforementioned "gentlemen" above.

One DOES NOT authorize the deportation of his citizens - especially not based on their Jewish ancestry -, otherwise face the brand of an antisemite.

Period.

The time came when Horthy had to choose between his nation and his social class - and he chose the latter.

Please don't get me wrong, it was not against a common Hungarian's will in 1944. By mid-1944, the war seemed to be lost, the first air strikes have happened. The country trembled with horror, the war was at their doorstep again. But this time, it will be different - everyone felt that. I recall a lot of conversations of my grandparents and their friends about that time. Everyone felt that Horthy will somehow save the nation this time. But how?

Let me tell you what deportation meant. It meant that the state acquired more resources to fight the incoming storm. Horthy knew that he needs these resources, and he was willing to sacrifice hundreds of thousands of innocents for it.
For example, in my hometown, where a Jewish community of 4.5% lived, it happened this way. On Sabbath, the csendőrség and a few armed squad from a nearby city arrived. The Jews were all in the synagoge, praying. The venue was isolated by the armed forces, and the Jews were rounded up. A lot of citizens stopped by and watched. Tension grew. The notary came with the catholic priest, and they started to call names, according to the 1941 census (the one that Hungarian nationalists like to refer to, because it showed 53% Hungarians in Northern Transsylvania).

Then came the surprise. A lot of people declared themselves as jews as per the traditions of "Cuius regio, eius religio", so it varied from household to household, what they declared themselves. These people tended to be the most tolerant and less religious ones (obviously). They formed the link between the Christian/Atheist/Jewish society. As more and more bystanders were called out to get in the line, the people started to get nervous.

Any missing Jews were sent for. A few armed troopers on a Kübelwagen. They quickly rounded up the docile inhabitants.

It was Sabbath, so the Jews were not allowed to work.

However, times were hard, and religion offered way for repentance. Thus, my great-grandfather, a prominent coal miner who commanded enormous respect because he saved his fellows from drowning in quicksand a decade ago, wanted to fix the holed and ragged boots of his team (of his Schicht ~ shift), so the master and the apprentice schuhmacher were there when the troops arrived.

They asked for the Jews, but he insisted to know what they want to do with them. When they will be back? They were the only schuhmachers in town. Nobody can work with ragged boots like that. When the NCO got angry with my stubborn great-grandfather, he realized that an angry mob of ~50 coalminers surrounded them, armed with pickaxes and shovels. They were ready to die or kill on my great-grandpa's mark. They backed off and drove away.

They didn't come back, because the coal miners were protected and important for the economy. They weren't even conscripted.

By the time the schuhmacher and his apprentice got home, their community was deported to Auschwitz. None came back.

These two poor souls were the only survivors. I keep letters from their great-grandchildren. They send me a mail every year on the day their ancestor was saved.


But most of the town cheered. Their debts to the jewish grocery store should not be paid! They could take cattle, building materials, rooms, houses for themselves. Morale was all time high.

That was what Horthy had done.

And you cheer him as a great statesman.

***

A lot of people accused my great-grandfather. Why did you do this? Why did you hide them in the tunnels?

My great-grandfather, an ethnic German said: what we will allow them now, we will get the same in a few years.

In a few weeks, armed soldiers came and started to round up ethnic Germans, according to the 1941 census (the one that Hungarian nationalists like to refer to, because it showed 53% Hungarians in Northern Transsylvania), to defend the Reich and be conscripted to the Waffen-SS. My grandpa was conscripted, as he was not working in the mines at age 16.

In two years, armed soldiers came and started to round up ethnic Germans to deport them to Germany, according to the 1941 census (the one that Hungarian nationalists like to refer to, because it showed 53% Hungarians in Northern Transsylvania). My great-grandfather was in the mines, my great-grandmother ran into the woods with her small child, my grandpa was still in Austria, trying to get home from the POW camp.

A whole batallion of variously armed miners and citizens formed up and an illiterate coal miner said to the notary: "Next!" when he came to my great-grandpa's name. They were the only German family that was not deported.

But most of the town cheered. Their debts to the German craftsmen should not be paid! They could take cattle, building materials, rooms, houses for themselves. Morale was all time high.

But yes, Horthy was such a great statesman.
Last edited by Peter89 on 17 Jul 2020, 06:54, edited 1 time in total.
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

Peter89
Member
Posts: 2369
Joined: 28 Aug 2018, 06:52
Location: Europe

Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

#104

Post by Peter89 » 16 Jul 2020, 18:58

Sid Guttridge wrote:
16 Jul 2020, 15:41

Finally, Horthy was a strong Catholic with close relations with the Vatican,
Dear Sid, that is not correct.

Horthy was a strong Protestant.
"Everything remained theory and hypothesis. On paper, in his plans, in his head, he juggled with Geschwaders and Divisions, while in reality there were really only makeshift squadrons at his disposal."

User avatar
wm
Member
Posts: 8753
Joined: 29 Dec 2006, 21:11
Location: Poland

Re: Was it a mistake for Miklos Horthy (the Hungarian regent) to seek a separate peace?

#105

Post by wm » 16 Jul 2020, 19:12

What Horthy had done doesn't prove that he knew.

It's obvious that many injustices happened in wartime Hungary - to the Jews and to Hungarians. In such a poor country, devastated economically and morally by the ww1 defeat it was inevitable.

They say about 400,000 Hungarians died and about 400,000 Jews - all of them pointlessly.

Post Reply

Return to “Minor Axis Nations”