German opinions on their allies

[Black Prince]

After defeat in Stalingrad german officer cursed Germanys lousy allies to Finnish general Paavo Talvela. Talvela reminded him that the Finnish front is the only front that haven't moved backwards. German officer quoted "Of course i didn't mean Finns-if there were 50 million Finns we would share the world together with you" "If there were 50 million Finns..." Talvela replied "...What makes you think we would share the world together with you?"

lol...

I heard somewhere a quote from a German officer about the Spanish Blue Division soldiers:

"They were undisciplined as Italians, but they fought as bravely as SS troopers

[Fridolin]

"If at the front you find an unshaven soldier, worn boots and unkempt uniform, salute him: he's a hero, he is an Spaniard" (attributed to the artillery commander ox XXXVIII AK, Army Group North)

"The Spaniards.... one cannot imagine more fearless fellows. They scarcely take cover. They flaunt death. I know in any case that our men are always glad to have Spaniards as neighbours in this sector." Adolf Hitler to Sepp Dietrich , 4th January 1942

[Csaba Becze]

The soldier's performance depend on the equipment and the motivation too, but not their race.

The Germans tought, that the Italian soldier is not a good soldier, but Italy is an important ally (the Italians were bad soldiers during the first world war two - they hadn't a good motivation).

Hitler hated Hungarians from his childhood in Austria, and he hated especially Admiral Horthy.

He hated the Rumanians too, he said that only "Antonescu is a good Rumanian".

The Finnish were too far, and they were not too important for Hitler (and Finland had an own political line).

[Csaba Becze]

BTW The Hungarian soldiers were the best soldiers

[Folgore]

"The German soldier has wondered the world, the Italian "Bersaglieri" have wondered the German soldier".

Erwin Rommel, in his diary, North Africa, 1941.


Regards, F.

[Ovidius]

"If at the front you find an unshaven soldier, worn boots and unkempt uniform, salute him: he's a hero, he is an Spaniard" (attributed to the artillery commander ox XXXVIII AK, Army Group North)

The quote had been also attributed to Hitler himself.

~Ovidius

[Ovidius]

He hated the Rumanians too, he said that only "Antonescu is a good Rumanian".

I pretty much doubt it, since Hitler did not know too much about the ordinary Romanian. The highest degree of probability has the theory that he was speaking about the Romanian politicians, between whom only Antonescu was "good" at that moment because Antonescu was with him, and stood with him up to the final(in the last meeting with Hitler, Antonescu said literally that "he was going to die in front of the last battalion, on the battlefield"). 8)

BTW The Hungarian soldiers were the best soldiers

Who should I believe: you, or two of the greatest German military commanders, who were there and saw how the things went?

~Ovidius

[MVSNConsolegenerale]

Someone mentioned the Italians as an important ally but as having horrible soldiers.

This is completely true. Although there were one or two good italian divisions....most of them never left italy and were trained mostly in winter combat, specifically for defending against the french at high altitudes...the average italian division was horrible. It wasn't so much their training as the horrible conditions of all the guns and artillery. One Italian Division was worth strategically about half a german division. This was because the italians lied on paper about the strength of their forces inorder to intimidate the rest of the world...and each division had about two/thirds the artillery and heavy weaponry they were supposed to have...and that artillery was in horrible condition. Also...for political reasons...the average italian was not as into the war as the average german...the italian king (very anti-fascist) still had an encredible amount of sway in the army. The blackshirts were pretty good fighters....but only on their homeland....they fought horribly in africa.....but pretty well against the partisans on italian soil...by that time it was over anyways.

Although italy had a strong airforce....and a somewhat reputable navy (with amazing navy seal type elites such as the "frogmen")...these were not well coordinated at all.

However, Italy was the only other european super-power on germany's side. the finns and rumanians, etc might have been good soldiers...but their countries were simply not large enough to equal italy in their worth to the germans. That is why that despite italy's horrible track record on land combat, germany always considered italy their greatest ally. From an industrial point of view, and an agricultural one....no other ally of germany gave as much to the war as italy...and germany knew they needed the tanks and the food very badly.

It was one of the wermacht's greatest failures not to capture the italian industrial zones on the west coast when the official italian government switched sides. With those...they would have been able to hold off against russia for a little while longer.

It should be mentioned that although we think of mussolini as a dictator. He never really had the powers that hitler did. The italian people were always split between him and the king...and after twenty years of fascism people were beginning to loose faith in mussolini.

world war 2 was his big gamble to prove to the populace once and for all that he really was the best thing for the country.

[Ovidius]

This is completely true. Although there were one or two good italian divisions....most of them never left italy and were trained mostly in winter combat, specifically for defending against the french at high altitudes...the average italian division was horrible.

Right. Although the Bersaglieri fought very well, they were just a few, and the rest of the Regio Esercito sucked compared to them.

It wasn't so much their training as the horrible conditions of all the guns and artillery. One Italian Division was worth strategically about half a german division. This was because the italians lied on paper about the strength of their forces inorder to intimidate the rest of the world...and each division had about two/thirds the artillery and heavy weaponry they were supposed to have...and that artillery was in horrible condition.

Royal Romanian Army was far worse equipped than the Italians, but still performed good.

Although italy had a strong airforce....and a somewhat reputable navy (with amazing navy seal type elites such as the "frogmen")...these were not well coordinated at all.

Here we disagree a bit. Although the Regio Esercito mostly sucked, the Regia Marina(Italian Royal Navy) was a pretty different story. It was a very good naval force, but the way it was used just wasted precious vessels and men. Coordination, yes, but also unappropriate strategy.

~Regards,

Ovidius

[MVSNConsolegenerale]

The italian airforce was not really commanded that well...

but if you are looking at the individual planes they used, they were pretty well designed and the men that flew them pretty well trained.

However, it was never large enough to compete with the luftwaffe in the early days...

but by the end proved to be usefull since the italian airforce was the only division of the armed forces to 'on mass' ally itself with the RSI after the main italian government switched sides. By that time the luftwaffe had been vastly shrunk due to britain and the soviets.

All in my opinion of course .

[Milan Szekelyhidi]

The Germans tought, that the Italian soldier is not a good soldier

Rommel sad:
"The Italian military top leaders was terrible."
Not the Italian solders. The Italian solders fight more better, when Rommel captain for them.

Friessner sad same for the Hungarian army, but he attached, few the good Hungarian top leaders and he cited lots of Hungarian units.

Milan

[TIBERIVS]

The Italian High Command is to blame for the reputation that Italian soldiers are given.When Rommel arrived in N. Africa all he had were Italian troops,and two panzer divisions I think*correct me if Im wrong*and some succesful offensives were conducted.Unfortunatly the Regia Aeronautica were a few years behind Britain and Germany. The Fiat engines couldnt compete with the Rolls Royce or Daimler/Benz powered fighters.However inspite of that,Italian pilots were considered some of the finest.

[Csaba Becze]

Well, I like disputes with correct arguments.

Folgore:
You know, Rommel fought against Italians in First World War too. His opinion was, that the Italians are bad soldiers, but he didn't write this in his book, the Infantry Attacks, because he publicated this too late (Italy and Germany were allies in this time). He didn't write his candid opinion. It was a generally German deal, they scorned their allies, their all "comrades". This is a fact.

I like Italian people, and I know, that the Italian bersaglieri and paratrooper units were excellent. But the Italian Army's equipment was bad and they didn't want to fight for Hitler in eastern front, and their performance was quite weak in the desert too.

Ovidius:
I know, that Hitler liked Antonescu as a politician, but he hated and scorned Romanians too. The Romanians were "third class allies" for him.

This sentence was just a joke:
"BTW The Hungarian soldiers were the best soldiers "
Do you know, what does it mean: ?

BTW the Hungarians equipment was the worst during Second World War. Their problems were the highest, because just Hungary and Bulgaria were defeated and mutilationed countries, like Germany, all other Germany's ally were in better position. Bulgaria's role was not too important. The Hungarian military industry started in late 1938.
What do you think, this is the same, like Romania's position? You must be joking! And Romania got a lot of modern weapons from Germany, but Hungary none, till 1944. The Hungarian Army fought against the Red Army with old and unimpressive weapons. This is a sad fact.
BTW, when the Hungarian Army fought against the Romanians, the Hungarian soldiers were better, than Romanians. This is a fact too 8)

I am not too partial, because I am a half German, and most of my parents were German (Waffen SS) soldiers.

I think, Germany hated all his enemies and allies too. It was a huge mistake, but Hitler was a psychotic person and his opinion is not authoritative.

Sorry for my bad English, but I have been learning English just since February 2001.

[Ovidius]

BTW the Hungarians equipment was the worst during Second World War. Their problems were the highest, because just Hungary and Bulgaria were defeated and mutilationed countries, like Germany, all other Germany's ally were in better position. Bulgaria's role was not too important. The Hungarian military industry started in late 1938.
What do you think, this is the same, like Romania's position?

Romanian defense industry was almost inexistent prior to the war. And even during the war, there were just a few Romanian designs in war materials. Romanian railroads(the spinal column of any country during war) were of low quality and the railway buildup program started by Antonescu's government in 1942 was finished only by the Commies in the 1960s. The Romanian banking system was in chaos.

We were in far worse situation the Finland, which, although sparsely populated and with low resources, was inhabited by a tough and brave population, able to "pour butter from hard rock" as a Romanian proverb says. Their artillery was on par, if not better, than German and Soviet, but while those two had the best gun designs, the Finns had to do with pre-WWI vintage cannons(I just wonder what they could have done with better weapons ). On the other side, the vast majority of the Romanian population(78 percent) were weakly-educated peasants, and those guys were turned almost overnight in soldiers that earned Von Manstein's admiration.

You must be joking! And Romania got a lot of modern weapons from Germany, but Hungary none, till 1944. The Hungarian Army fought against the Red Army with old and unimpressive weapons. This is a sad fact.

Some of your fellow Magyars had tried to prove on this forum and on the old one that Hungarian light weapons and self-propelled guns were the best of Eastern Europe

BTW, when the Hungarian Army fought against the Romanians, the Hungarian soldiers were better, than Romanians. This is a fact too

I don't exactly remember this to have been a fact in 1919 or 1944

I think, Germany hated all his enemies and allies too. It was a huge mistake, but Hitler was a psychotic person and his opinion is not authoritative.

You see, Hitler's own actions do not support your words. He might have said something insulting to Romanians after a failure of Romanian troops(he scorned even his own best troopers when they failed), but he could not have hated the Romanian population, which he did not know. OK, if we talk about politicians, they had given him enough reasons of hatred with their openly hostile policy in the 1930s.

Hitler, by some hardly understandable strategic reasons, always(from 1933 to 1939) seeked to have Romania as an ally. As a benevolent ally, not as an occupied one, as Holland was.

~Regards,

Ovidius

[Csaba Becze]

Ovidius:

1919 and 1944 wasn't the same situation.
In 1919 Hungary was a weak country. Hungary lost more than 600 000 killed soldier between 1914-18, and a lot of other soldiers were POW. The military industry hadn't enough material, but the most important cause was, that Béla Kun's communist terror-regime wasn't popular. The Hungarian soldiers were tired and didn't want to fight for Communists.
They fight whitout motivation.
Romania didn't fight till summer 1916 and later made a separate peace. The Romanian Army was bigger, and they got a lot of French war materials in 1919.
I think, this is not the same situation.
And in 1944, when the Hungarian unit fought against Romanians, the Hungarians were better. Ther retreated, but the cause was a huge Red Army, not the Romanians. And in Budapest, the Hungarians retreated through the Soviets too.
BTW the Romanians murdered a lot of civilians with the Soviets in Budapest (they were better against civilians?)
This is not a nationalist spiel, this is fact...

But this topic is not a Romanian-Hungarian topic.

Have you heard, that Guderian said, that the 1st Hungarian Cavalry Division (later 1st Hussar Division) is equivalent with the best German divisions? He said that this unit is similar, like the best 20 German division. But it was a propaganda statement too. The allies were good for "Kanonenfutter" for Germans.
BTW some German General said, that the Romanians were always traitors (in 1916 and in 1944 too). They didn't like Romanians at all...

The Germans dindn't use up in a large measure the Ukrainians, and the Baltic nations too. It was another mistake. They tought, that only the German soldier a good soldier. Their other statements were not too candid...

Cheers,

Csaba