German opinions on their allies

[Victor]

In 1919 Hungary was a weak country. Hungary lost more than 600 000 killed soldier between 1914-18, and a lot of other soldiers were POW.

Romania suffered 535,706 casualties during WWI. What's the big difference?

And in 1944, when the Hungarian unit fought against Romanians, the Hungarians were better. They retreated, but the cause was a huge Red Army, not the Romanians.

Yes the Romanian army was fighting side by side with Soviets from September 1944. But the Hungarians weren't alone in their fight, too. Aren't you forgetting some German armies in the area?

Here are some facts for you:
"The German-Hungarian forces attacked on 13 September. Their objective was to push back the 1st Army and establish a defensive line on the Carpathians. The Romanian units retreated because they lacked air and artillery support and even an appropriate natural obstacle. Elements of the Brandenburg Division penetrated 20-30 km behind Romanian lines, but were stopped by the 19th Infantry Division at Resita and Turnu Severin. The 9th Cavalry Division, with support from the 14th Infantry-training Division, which had just arrived, managed to resist in front of the 4th SS Police Division and the 7th SS Mountain Division, that were aiming to take Timisoara. The only important success of the German-Hungarian offensive was the occupation of Arad, by the Hungarian 1st Armoured Division. To prevent an Axis offensive on the Mures Valley, the 1st Army organized the "Paulis" Detachment from a battalion of students from a military school, a battalion of the 96th Infantry Regiment and some 122 mm field guns and 4 AT guns. Its mission was to block the enemy advance in the Paulis area. On 14 September, units from the Hungarian 1st Armoured Division and the 6th Reserve Division started the assault. In spite of numerical superiority they made no progress and, on 17, arrived a Soviet motorized battalion from the 53rd Army. In the following days, the German and Hungarian troops had to retreat after the Romanian-Soviet counteroffensive started. The "Paulis" Detachment lost 377 soldiers and the Hungarians 1,287 men and 23 tanks. Practically, the Axis offensive on Timisoara and Paulis was stopped without Soviet aid."

BTW the Romanians murdered a lot of civilians with the Soviets in Budapest (they were better against civilians?)

I can guive a lot of examples of Hungarian soldiers rounding up Romanian peasants and shooting them. But I do not say that "Hungarians were better against defenseless soldiers?" I don't like to generalize. There was scum in every army.

What do you think, this is the same, like Romania's position? You must be joking! And Romania got a lot of modern weapons from Germany, but Hungary none, till 1944. The Hungarian Army fought against the Red Army with old and unimpressive weapons. This is a sad fact.

Quite the contrary. Hungary and Bulgaria repeatedly received licenses which were denied to Romania. Btw, I wouldn't call 66 Bf-109Gs, 51 Ju-88s, 13 Ju-87Ds and 16 Fw-189As received by Hungary in 1943, nothing.
After August 1944, the Romanian army's state started to decay. Most of the battle hardened veterans were rounded up by the Soviets and sent to "sunny" Siberia. The Romanian factories that existed, worked for the Red Army, the railroad system and trains was used primarily by the Soviets. They also confiscated large quantities of weapons and cars. All attempts to buy weapons from the Soviets were refused.

But this topic is not a Romanian-Hungarian topic.

You are right.

Here is another quote: Field Marshal von Rundstedt, who at various times in 1941 operated with Romanian, Hungarian, Italian and Slovak mobile formations, seems to have thought most highly of the Slovaks, who he described as "very good, first rate, very unassuming, always there."

[Mark V]

Spanish Blue Division fought really well and bravely. We should not forget that the Blue Division fought on the northern part of eastern front. In winters there is very cold, which was to them totally alien enviroment. That's all you that tend too easily explain some armies poor combat perfomance in cold climate because troops weren't used to such climate. Spaniards showed that motivated, tough soldiers could overcome such obstacles.

Overall i must agree to General Talvelas opinion.

[Csaba Becze]

Victor:

Rumania suffered 535 000 casualties during the WWI. This is the same, like the Hungarian?
You have not to good mathematican skills. I wrote, that Hungary lost more than 600 000 KILLED soldier (and lost more than 1 000 000 POW, and approx. 500 000 had serious wounds) This is the same??? And it was just Hungary's losses, just a part of the Austro-Hungarian Army's losses...

Yes, The Hungarian Air Units got some dozen German planes in 1943, but just in front. Rumania got a lot of modern weapons - including planes - from 1941 and they got planes for home defending too. Hungary had just from early 1944 Messers for home defending units, but they were HUNGARIAN MANUFACTURED planes.

The Hungarian attack in autumn 1944 in Transsylvania was an improvised attack with very weak units (for example the 1st Armour Division had just wery weak tanks, most of the were Hungarian manufactured light types, and the reserve units were unbelievable weak units), but they able to attack and pushed the Rumanian forces. They captured a lot of modern German weapons from Rumanian units. Just the Soviet forces had to rolled back them.

About incidents with Rumanian civilians: I know, that the wors incident was in 1940, when a Hungarian unit perished more than 200 Rumanian civilians. The officer, who gave the order to the soldiers, was an orphan, who was born in Transsylvania, but the Rumanians murdered their parents in 1918 (or in 1919). It was this attack's cause...
The Rumanians perished a lot of Hunagarian civilians in 1916, 1919, 1944-45 too, for example in 1945 Maniu's "heros" decapitated a lot of Hungarians with axes in Transsylvania (and for example in 1848-49 too, during this years more than 10 000 Hungarian civilians were murdered by Rumanians). BTW my Great-grandparents on my fathers's side had to escape from Transsylvania in 1919, if they wanted to save their lifes...


BTW I know Rundstedt's words about the Slovakian units, but it was just a small unit, not the all Slovak Army. And soon, the Germans changed their opinion about Slovak troops (they were a slav nation and didn't want to fight agains the Red Army, a lot of Slovakian soldiers runned off to Soviets).


Mark V:
The Spanish division was excellent, but very important, that they were volunteers, anti-communist soldiers and they have a big motivation (but some Spanish communist fought on the other side too)


I think, the Soviet's opinion is very important. They said, that the best German-Allies soldiers were the Finns.

[Ovidius]

It's funny that a certain Magyar member around had begun to charge the Romanians with warcrimes and to complain on poor undefended Hungary only because he could not stand the idea that two of the most talented German military commanders rated the Romanians as better than his fellow Magyars.

That's why I expect this thread to be closed soon.

~Ovidius

[Csaba Becze]

It was an answer, but sure, sure the Romanian Army was the best (why didn't capture Romanians Stalingrad alone?)

BTW if I want to make a lot of 's I am thinking about your historians. Ovidius, you have a telling nickname. Do you belive the Dako-Romanian Continuit's theory? This is hilarious
You should translate this Hungarian dictum: "Álmodik a nyomor."

[Cezarprimo]

Csaba Becze, only a madman can justify murder with murder.

Are you sure that the romanians that kiled hungarians in 1944-1945 didn't have any relatives among that 200 romanians killed by that crazy flock part of the hungarian army ? In that case, according to your judgement the murder of hungarians would have been righteous...

As for 1919, Romania and Hungary fought on equal terms, the Buftea peace didn't leave Romania with much else than the dust on the roads...
I have discussed enough on this subject, it even had its' own topic in the Non WW2 Military History section, but it was regretably closed. So for your enlightement go and read that topic.

As for Germanys' opinion on its' allies, Germany had only one good ally, and for most of WW2 it had a very good opinion on this ally, this ally was Germany itself.

Regards

[Csaba Becze]

Cezarprimo:

Be aware. You should compose correctly. I wrote just facts. I didn't justify a murder with murder, I just wrote one man's impulse.
You should write facts too.

BTW what was the reason the Romanians brutality in 1848-49 and in another incidents?

I wrote my opinion with facts about 1919, but you should read the all entries. Ovidius was, who mentioned 1919 at first, not me! I have read the another topic too, but it contains some mistakes.
In 1919 it wasn't equal therms, and you should give proofs.

BTW I wrote, that the Germans hated all his Allies. Have you read this?

I use my real name, and I wrote facts, and my opinions about proofs. You should do this too.

[IAR80]

"BTW what was the reason the Romanians brutality in 1848-49 and in another incidents? "


Hmm...
Could it be the hungarian occupation and its consequences suffered by the romanian people for centuries? Hungarization. Ring a bell?
Or could it also be the fact that the new hungarian state formed during the 1848 revolution did NOT grant romanians equal rights?

Now for something on-topic.

"BTW I wrote, that the Germans hated all his Allies. Have you read this? "
So? Is it supposed to make sense? The germans followed Hitler so this means Hitler hated his allies. Quite a contradictory statement, don't you think? And untrue: Hitler needed romanian oil, and of course cannon fodder , a bit of hungarian oil, some sinthetic fiber factories if I'm not mistaken, and cannon fodder , etc. Each ally had something to offer, and I'm not talking just about cannon fodder.

[Victor]

You have not to good mathematican skills. I wrote, that Hungary lost more than 600 000 KILLED soldier (and lost more than 1 000 000 POW, and approx. 500 000 had serious wounds

Ok, I was wrong. But, were all these ETHNIC-HUNGARIANS? As I recall, Hungary from 1919 was only a small part of Hungary from 1914-1918. Those Hungarian casualties could also be Romanians, Croatians, Serbs and other nationalities from the Hungarian Kingdom.
But the losses suffered are not that important. Romania lost almost all the oil industry (which brought a lot of bucks) plus the 1918 harvest (another source of money). It was not as industrialized as Hungary was. It also lost a lot of equipment after the armistice in 1917 and could only raise an 160,000 strong army in late 1918. Unlike Hungary, a large part of its territory (pre-WWI) had been ravished by war and then exploited to the fullest by the occupiers: Germans, Hungarians, Bulgarians…

Rumania got a lot of modern weapons - including planes - from 1941 and they got planes for home defending too.

The 50 Bf-109Es received in 1941 were paid for, they were not a present. The 15 Emils that came in late 1941-early 1942 were second-hand airplanes. The "large" numbers of home-defense airplanes bought from Germany in 1943 were a Bf-109G squadron and a Bf-110C Squadron (second-hand airplanes).
Btw, Romania didn’t "get" anything. All was paid for.

They captured a lot of modern German weapons from Rumanian units.

I find that a little hard to believe, since the majority of modern German equipment was assigned to the armies on the front in Moldavia with the Soviets. After 23 August, the Soviets rounded up over 130,000 Romanian soldiers (plus their equipment) and sent them to "sunny" Siberia. Most of the captured Soviet materials in the previous 3 years of war was also confiscated. The units that fought on the Allied side until May 1945, were much worse equipped then those that faced the Soviets a few months before. I have pointed out the reasons in a previous post.

About incidents with Rumanian civilians:

This is not the place to discuss the massacres committed by both Hungarians and Romanians. For every example you give me I can give a counter-example and vice-versa. If you want to discuss this start a topic in the Non-WWII Subjects area.

BTW what was the reason the Romanians brutality in 1848-49 and in another incidents?

I could also add the massacres done by the Hungarian army in 1848-49, but this is not the place. Look above!

Do you belive the Dako-Romanian Continuit's theory? This is hilarious

Don't you think that other people can have other opinions than you? Anyway I prefer to leave this subject to the experts. I am not one of them. Are you an ancient history scholar?

I know Rundstedt's words about the Slovakian units, but it was just a small unit, not the all Slovak Army. And soon, the Germans changed their opinion about Slovak troops (they were a slav nation and didn't want to fight agains the Red Army, a lot of Slovakian soldiers runned off to Soviets).

The Slovak units kept fighting until 1944, IIRC.

[Mike R]

A quick quote I find amusing:

"On the whole Rommel agreed with the Italian soldier who said to him: 'Why don't you Germans do the fighting, General, and let us Italians build the roads?'"

- p.120
- Rommel-The Desert Fox
-by Desmond Young

Also from this same source:
"But he (Rommel) never thought they were all cowards. The Ariete Armoured Division fought very well at El Gubi and elsewhere: Bresica was not too bad. The pioneers were all good and worked well, even under fire. Properly officered, given decent equipment and a prospect of home leave, he felt something might have been made of them. (General Speidel told me that the northern Italian divisions of General Garibaldi's 8th Italian Army, to which he had been Chief-of-Staff, fought well in Russia under much worse conditions.)"
-Desmond Young

[Csaba Becze]

Victor:

The 600 000 Hungarian killed soldier was an estimate. The "big" Hungary lost more killed soldier, I use this numbers just for Hungarian ethnic soldiers(and other numbers too).

Hungary paid a lot of money for some German military technics too.
BUT in 1943 the Hungarian Air Force got the worst old Messers. They were sometimes cast-off German or RUMANIAN planes, with some repair on their old engines. Some Hungarian pilot killed with this old machines, because their engines always went wrong.
See for details for example:
http://www.dalnet.se/~surfcity/hungary_bekassy.htm
Békássy crashed and killed with an old, former Romanian Messer (they got this plane from the German machine shop in Uman with very bad engine, and after he took off, his engine stopped instantly, and he crashed to a benzin tank car on the edge of the airport).

The Hungarian units captured a lot of modern German handweapons from Rumanians (for example MG 42 machineguns) and for example near Apahida a dozen 75 mm Anti Tank guns. The Hungarians hadn't modern MG's (just old Schwarzloses) and Pak's too.

About incidents against civilians:
I don't want a new dispute about this theme (BTW IAR80 had right, when he wrote, that the Romanians hadn't equal right in Transsylvania - it was an old problem, becuse in Transsylvania had just three "official" nation: The Hungarian, The Székely, and The Saxon, and the Romanians had problems with religins equality too, but this is a long story, and I haven't enough good English skills to write about this).
The genocide was the "solution" for Rumanians and Serbs always against their ethnic problems, this is a fact. But this isn't a solution. The Serbs made this nowadays too...

About the Dako-Romanian theory:
Yes, I am a "professional" historian, I learned a lot about the Carpathian region's history from the ancient times till now. This theory is just a tale, without any proofs.

About Slovaks:
I know their history, and I think, I have better and more information about this country, then you.
It was a strange country, an "exhibition ally". BTW a lot of people don't know, that on 1st September, 1939 wasn't just Germany an agressor against Poland - Slovakia was too (but they were victorious nation after both world wars, LOL)
The Slovakian army wasn't bad, but they send just minor forces against the Soviet Union, it wasn't the general Slovakian Army, they were just their special forces, elite units. And they runned off sometimes, their pilots with their Messers too(Did you know this?). The Slovakian fighter claims were partly fictive, etc.

[Ovidius]

A few of my kind thoughts to our dear friend C. B.:

1. Neither I nor Victor had started any discussion on warcrimes committed either by Magyars against Romanians or the reverse. You did. I remember to have spoken only about the performance of Magyar troops in the field(1919 and 1944), which obviously(!?) was something different.

2. 1848-1849 have nothing to do with the performance of the Romanian or Magyar troops in WWII, and was brought in discussion only because you turned it to warcrimes;

3. Dacians and Romans are(to my humble knowkledge) dead for almost 2000 years, and they had nothing to do with WWII, despite Hitler's perceived admiration of ancient Romans;

All the above had been brought in the discussion by you, because you had tried to deviate the discussion from what you couldn't stand: the perceived high rating of the Romanian troopers(ordinary field troopers, not paratroopers like the Szent Laszlo Division) in the eyes of two of the most competent German military commanders. Because although Manstein and Speidel were aristocratic bastards, at least they proved themselves as very competent from the military point of view. Among the best European field commanders of the time, I'd say.

I just hope the thread won't be locked because of you.

~Ovidius

[Csaba Becze]

Ovidius:
Yes, yes, yes, I am the guilty

BTW I didn't mentioned the Szent László division (that had only one paratrooper-regiment).

I wrote at first, that the soldier's performance depend on their equipment, and motivation.
Later I wrote a joke(the Hungarian soldier were the best), and you started this discussion (couldn't you remember?)

And what's your opinion about this:

Have you heard, that Guderian said, that the 1st Hungarian Cavalry Division (later 1st Hussar Division) is equivalent with the best German divisions? He said that this unit is equal, like one of the best 20 German divisions. But it was just a propaganda statement too(like Runstedt's, Mannstein's word). The allies were good for "Kanonenfutter" for Germans.
BTW some German General said, that the Romanians were always traitors (in 1916 and in 1944 too). They didn't like Romanians at all(and Hungarians, and Slovakians, etc).


They hated their all enemies and allies too, and they lied always.
I wrote this two weeks ago, but you didn't write your opinion about this.

I don't fake the facts never. You should read my article about the 2nd Hungarian Army in World WarI I magazine (it will be published in fall, I hope).

Cheers, my most liked expatriated poet

[Cezarprimo]

Csaba Becze wrote:

About the Dako-Romanian theory:
Yes, I am a "professional" historian, I learned a lot about the Carpathian region's history from the ancient times till now. This theory is just a tale, without any proofs.

Csaba Becze, the Dako-Romanian theory makes a hell of a lot more sense than the austrian-hungarian migration theory.

However I'll not start a discussion with you on this topic as I have already discussed it with MagyarCrusader on the old forum, and judging from the way you are writing you can not bring anything new to that.

Germany didn't hated its' allies it just used them to fit its' own interests and when you consider the huge gap in troops but especially in armament quality between the german army and the armies of its' allies, it is easy to understand why the germans were in most of the cases benevolent rather than admirative to thier allies.

And as Germany was following its' own interests so did Germanys' allies, all this fairy tales about romanians being "traitors in 1916 and in 1944 too" are dust in the eyes of overexcited people, Romania as Germany had its' own agenda, and it followed its' own interests, the germans know and undestand this...

I look forward to hear what motives could Germany have possibly had for hating its' allies or at least for hating Hungary. The allies were good or bad acoording to how useful they were, and I can tell you that the romanians were more useful than the hungarians (don't get angry, it's just the truth... ).

All the opinions of different german officers listed here come when the officers in question were asked about it, I know of no german officer to oust an opinion favorbale to one of Germanys' allies out of his own free will. Once again, it was everything about taking care of your own interests.

Regards

[Victor]

But it was just a propaganda statement too(like Runstedt's, Mannstein's word).

Most of this statements were from after the war. What propaganda?