Hungarian Gold Train

Gyenes · Post by **Gyenes** » 16 Nov 2003 20:56

I have heard about Allied looting after the war, and one story I wish to find more about a train of jewlery, silverware, and other iteams of value that the Germans took from the Hungarian people and placed in either Ausrtria or Switzerland (Some Alpine country not totally sure) where the American army found it and looted it never being documented. Any help would be appreciated.

Orok · Post by **Orok** » 16 Nov 2003 22:58

Look at the links:

The Mystery of the Hungarian “Gold Train”

Nazis and the mysterious 'Gold Train'

The American authorities did return some Gold looted by the Germans to Hungary in 1946. Here is a news photo of 9/13/1944 with original caption.

Best Regards!

gabriel pagliarani · Post by **gabriel pagliarani** » 17 Nov 2003 15:38

mmmhhh..

...if I well remember that train was found in the French controlled part of Austria. There was the gold owned by hungarian Judes sent to exterminations camps and stolen by "arrow-edged crosses". Some of those hungarian Nazis is still living in Switzerland enjoing that bloody gold. Untouchables...

Orok · Post by **Orok** » 17 Nov 2003 15:41

gabriel pagliarani wrote:(...) Some of those hungarian Nazis is still living in Switzerland enjoing that bloody gold. Untouchables...

Can you please elaborate on this and let us know your sources?

Thanks and Best Regards!

gabriel pagliarani · Post by **gabriel pagliarani** » 21 Nov 2003 15:33

Orok wrote:
gabriel pagliarani wrote:(...) Some of those hungarian Nazis is still living in Switzerland enjoing that bloody gold. Untouchables...
Can you please elaborate on this and let us know your sources?

Thanks and Best Regards!

Notes from the site you have mentioned: there is something obscure (an hidden identity-coverage?) in such "non aryans" presumed inmating in Switzerland. For a jew it was extremely hard to be inmated in Switzerland during the war. But this fact happened and it is written in the site you suggested:

1. The Exception

Only one fully documented case of restitution of paintings from the Gold Train exists. On September 20, 1945 trustees for Mrs. Joli Gergely initiated a claim with the U.S. Legation in Switzerland for the return of their client’s property. They alleged that jewelry, linen, lace, clothes, silverware and paintings belonging to Mrs. Gergely had been loaded on the Gold Train. Her trustees explained that their client, a "non-aryan," left Hungary to escape persecution and took up residence in Switzerland some years before. Her husband remained in Hungary and died there.73 Nikolaus von Csillaghy, a friend of the Gergely family, took care of their property.

On February 8, 1946 Mrs. Gergely’s trustees sent the American authorities a detailed list of their client’s property and the results of their investigation:

Every piece of the luggage is the property of our customer, Mrs. Joli Gergely. The trunks were, however, marked outside as being the property of Mr. Nikolaus von Csillaghy, a friend of Mrs. Gergely, and who at the time attended to the transport of the luggage. The car 55438 containing the property of our client, has been unloaded at the goodstation in Salzburg-Lehen ("Heereszeugmagazin") on 24th of July 1945. Lieutenant Colonel Heller, an American subject, and his secretary Miss Schnee dealt with the matter. When submitting the inventory of the luggage, Mr. Von Csillaghy discussed the matter with Lieutenant Colonel Heller….Basing on this discussion it should be possible to proceed with the investigations about the property of our client’s luggage.74

Orok · Post by **Orok** » 21 Nov 2003 16:01

Thank you gabriel for your reply.

I know that almost all the looted treasures from the so-called gold train are not returned to their rightful owners even today. No doubt it is a shame on the US government and US military. This event is still spawning claims and litigations today in the US.

But my question is about your previous statement that "Some of those hungarian Nazis is still living in Switzerland enjoing that bloody gold". I would like to know your sources on this assertion and the names or identity of the Hungarian nazis. I ask this question because it seems to me that the particular gold was first looted by the Germans and then looted by the Americans. I have some difficulties understanding how come the gold was then ended up in the hands of Hungarian nazis in Switzerland.

BTW although there cannot be a scientific definition for pseudo-scientific concepts such as "Aryan" or "non-Aryan", the Hungarian people would also be classified as non-Aryans according to German nazi standard.

Thank you and Best Regards!

Gyenes · Post by **Gyenes** » 22 Nov 2003 04:15

Thanks for the help.

Yes, it is a shame of Allied looting it was not everyone but there were cases of people stealing silverware, jewlery and other valuable objects.

Cheers!

gabriel pagliarani · Post by **gabriel pagliarani** » 24 Nov 2003 12:20

Orok wrote:....But my question is about your previous statement that "Some of those hungarian Nazis is still living in Switzerland enjoing that bloody gold". I would like to know your sources on this assertion and the names or identity of the Hungarian nazis. I ask this question because it seems to me that the particular gold was first looted by the Germans and then looted by the Americans. I have some difficulties understanding how come the gold was then ended up in the hands of Hungarian nazis in Switzerland...

I am not a member of Mossad or Tsahal: only those could explain you. But 20 years ago some newspapers of Zurich spoked about this scandal. In Zurich a big company trusting in gums and special rubbers used by Swiss Defence was investigated by mean of its own unclear hungarian-originated property. A lot of Magyar inmates effectively were working there. But I don't remember the name of such a Company.

About "aryan/non-aryan" terms they are not from mine, but they are reported as they are written in the sites above mentioned. With the block letters I suggested you that more than an hungarian family effectively asked to be inmated in Switzerland, but only that related family and only that family among all Hungarian inmates in Switzerland asked back their treasures. Consequently all other Hungarian inmates coming from that train never asked back to Allies such properties.
Surely these "never asking back aryan inmates" were not:
a) legal owners of the remaining gold
b) jews
c) "arrowed crosses" having nothing to hide. (If it was possible)

Orok · Post by **Orok** » 24 Nov 2003 15:02

gabriel pagliarani wrote:Some of those hungarian Nazis is still living in Switzerland enjoing that bloody gold. Untouchables...

orok wrote:I would like to know your sources on this assertion and the names or identity of the Hungarian nazis.

gabriel pagliarani wrote:I am not a member of Mossad or Tsahal: only those could explain you...

Thanks Gabriel for your explanation. I personally wouldn't make any such very broad and serious sounding allegation in this very serious research forum if I couldn't substantiate it at all.

Best Regrads!

GLADIVM · Post by **GLADIVM** » 27 Nov 2003 05:51

The story of the Gold Train has been mixed with so many lies & myths that has become very murky but few things are qute clear and can summoned as such :

- Allied Looting , the Americans did not loot the Gold Train but used some of its contents , mostly furniture , for use of the occupying forces and many of the pieces were not returned or badly damaged by the soldiers who used them The tale of looting originated form the fact that when the train contents were transferred to America they arrived in Bremerhaven just before teh ship " General Sturgis" which was carrying the first shipment of new German Currency and therefore local germans believed the wagons were filled with German Gold taken in payment of the new Currency

- The content of the Gold Train , were jewish possessions taken away by the Hungarian Gendarmerie and not by the Germans .
Most of the items were the normal things you find in houses of middle class peoples , Furrniture , Rags , Paintings , Clocks , Collection of Stamps , rings and so on , mostly not really valuable items .
The man in charge of the Gold Train for the former Hungarian Commissioner for Jewish Affairs Colonel of Gendarmerie Arpad Toldi ,
I enclose a photo of Toldi taken from the book " THE GOLD TRAIN " by RONALD ZWEIG , edited by PENGUING , and belonging to the mr Zweig private collection , I think mr Zweig will not mind because Toldi has vanished after 1946 and if anyone looking to this picture can give any clue about his fate or whereabouts would be welcome by mr Zweig who could not find any reiliable infos about Toldi fate .
Toldi disapeared form the French Austrian Occupied Zone and it had been rumored that he moved to France and was under the protection of some French High official who married onwe of his stepdaughters
By the way the book is quite good and exhaustive about the story and fate of the Gold Train

- The 30 Tons of Gold returned to Hungary were not part of the gold train load but came form the National Bank of Hungary and were trabnsfered to Germany before the siege of Budapest with the consent of the Hungarian Arrow Cross government and were found , I beileve , in the Merkers Mines in Thuringia in April 1945 .

- The value of the Gold train has been fabled to be up to 300 Millions US$ of 1945 value but in fact was much lower , when the goods were finally auctioned in New York they raised only US$ 1,636,688.00 and adding other valuables belonging to the train load can arrive up to a grand total of US$ 2,200,000.00
Of course with the disappearance of Toldi only disappeared some bags full with some of the most valuable items but probably the value of the train would not exceed 4 or 5 Millions US$ .

Many of the items in the train were personal items such as Fur coats , furnitures , Rugs , and so on .... , during the long trip and stay after the war were damaged by weather or other factors or looted by local peoples or soldiers .

Yours

GLADIVM

Orok · Post by **Orok** » 27 Nov 2003 14:19

Thanks GLADIVM for your interesting and informative posting!

Although I may not necessarily agree with all the conclusions reached by GLADIVM or Mr. Zweig in his book, I will have to say this is the type of serious replies I am always expecting from our erudite forum members!

GLADIVM Thank you again for your efforts!

Although Zweig's speculation on this Colonel Toldi Árpád hasn't been substantiated, any further information on this person will be appreciated!

Best Regards!

gabriel pagliarani · Post by **gabriel pagliarani** » 27 Nov 2003 15:07

Orok wrote:Thanks GLADIVM for your interesting and informative posting!

Although I may not necessarily agree with all the conclusions reached by GLADIVM or Mr. Zweig in his book, I will have to say this is the type of serious replies I am always expecting from our erudite forum members! GLADIVM Thank you again for your efforts!

Although Zweig's speculation on this Colonel Toldi Árpád hasn't been substantiated, any further information on this person will be appreciated!

Best Regards!

Orok, you are asking to the visitors of this site to do the job that no judge was able to accomplish during this half century. I wish to say that Gummi-Maag AG ( http:\\www.maagtechnic.ch ) of Zurich was secretely owned by Toldi, but I have no real evidence of such a rumor. Orok, examining the Hungarian fonts of your computer (Á,á) I am sure you are hungarian and probably not living in USA. Consequently you are in the right place and now try by yourself to determine where is now Arpad Toldi and a lot of that damned gold, if you can.

Orok · Post by **Orok** » 29 Nov 2003 23:15

Gabriel,

I am an American living in America, as you can tell from my location under my user name. As to the Hungarian font, you can also do it if you have Windows 95 or up. Refer to the manual came with your PC!

Best Regards!

GLADIVM · Post by **GLADIVM** » 02 Dec 2003 06:25

Some infos about Arpad Toldi :
Born in Kiskoros in 1898 , in 1915 he joined the Gendarmerie , served in Hajduszoboszlo and Debrecen in the 20's & 30's ,
in 1938 was appointed deputy commander of a Gendarmerie training camp at Pestszenterzsebet , in 1940 served in Szentes & then in Kolozsvar (today Cluj , Romania ) .
He was promoted major in 1938 and lieutenant Col in 1941 , In sept 42 was transferred to Dept VIb of the Ministry of Interior , in 1943 was promoted full colonel and Deputy Director of the Dept .
Toldi was a friend of Laszlo Baky , previously a senior officer in the Gendarmerie and when Baky was appointed assistant secretary of Ministry of Interior in April 1944 , Toldi was appointed FOISPAN ( Governor ) of the Fejer district , Szekesfehervar as capital , Szekesfehervar was the traditional site of coronation of Kings of Hungary and a post of high distinction .
His inaugural speech was violently anti-semitic , Toldi was described by people who worked with at the time as " A very intelligent man of a extremist fascist ideas and ruthless against those who tried to oppose him "
Toldi was not an official member of the Hungarian National Socialist Party
but he was an outspoken supporter .
In Sept 44 Toldi was removed form the Governorship of the district in a cabinet reshuffle which tried to quell the Arrow Cross raising but in October 44 with the new Arrow Cross govnerment installed he was appointed Commissioner fo Jewish Affairs .
This Bureau operated until end of Feb 45 but Toldi last signed documents date late Nov 44 .
Sometime between 16 to 10 Dec 44 the Gold Trian left Budapest and after some close calls with the advancing Red Army reached the coal mining small town of Brennbergbanya , here the train and passangers stayed for some time and Toldi was seen going through the train contents and having some of the more valuable items transferred to his residence .
These items were never returned to the train and seemingly kept by Toldi and his wife .
After having left the convoy and entered Austria , at end April Toldi tried to enter Switzerland togheter with a convoy of trucks but was turned back at the frontier .
On 29 April he met Wilhelm Hottl in Feldkirch and by Hottl account , gave hime some six boxes of valuables ..
After hiding for some time in the French occupied zone , on the night of 11 August 45 , he delivered himself to the French authorities in the person of Colonel Henry Jung , as he was fearful of his fate and afraid that his life was in danger , he led the french to the hiding place of two bags (at Shruns , near St Anton ) which contained jewellery and some stones , emeralds , diamonds , etc .
After a few months in detention Toldi was released as no precise charge against him were filed , or perhaps he bought his captors off , and disappeared .
In 1947 he was reported to be living in Innsbruck and from then on no reliable sightings have been reported .

Gabriel asked if anyone can tell about today whereabouts of Toldi and here I can aswer quite accurately , Toldi is DEAD , if alive would 105 years old , so we can safely assume that by now he is really underground .
Toldi had a son ATTILA (quite a common name in Hungary) born at Szombathely 18 July 1935 , and today he should be 68 years old , a possibly well alive , he is probably the only one who by now can solve the mistery of the missing loot .
Toldi also had two stepdaughters from his wife prevoius marriage but I am not fully sure of their names and after some further research will see if can definetly identify them . Will keep you posted .

Yours

GLADIVM

GLADIVM · Post by **GLADIVM** » 02 Dec 2003 06:25

Some infos about Arpad Toldi :
Born in Kiskoros in 1898 , in 1915 he joined the Gendarmerie , served in Hajduszoboszlo and Debrecen in the 20's & 30's ,
in 1938 was appointed deputy commander of a Gendarmerie training camp at Pestszenterzsebet , in 1940 served in Szentes & then in Kolozsvar (today Cluj , Romania ) .
He was promoted major in 1938 and lieutenant Col in 1941 , In sept 42 was transferred to Dept VIb of the Ministry of Interior , in 1943 was promoted full colonel and Deputy Director of the Dept .
Toldi was a friend of Laszlo Baky , previously a senior officer in the Gendarmerie and when Baky was appointed assistant secretary of Ministry of Interior in April 1944 , Toldi was appointed FOISPAN ( Governor ) of the Fejer district , Szekesfehervar as capital , Szekesfehervar was the traditional site of coronation of Kings of Hungary and a post of high distinction .
His inaugural speech was violently anti-semitic , Toldi was described by people who worked with at the time as " A very intelligent man of a extremist fascist ideas and ruthless against those who tried to oppose him "
Toldi was not an official member of the Hungarian National Socialist Party
but he was an outspoken supporter .
In Sept 44 Toldi was removed form the Governorship of the district in a cabinet reshuffle which tried to quell the Arrow Cross raising but in October 44 with the new Arrow Cross govnerment installed he was appointed Commissioner fo Jewish Affairs .
This Bureau operated until end of Feb 45 but Toldi last signed documents date late Nov 44 .
Sometime between 16 to 10 Dec 44 the Gold Trian left Budapest and after some close calls with the advancing Red Army reached the coal mining small town of Brennbergbanya , here the train and passangers stayed for some time and Toldi was seen going through the train contents and having some of the more valuable items transferred to his residence .
These items were never returned to the train and seemingly kept by Toldi and his wife .
After having left the convoy and entered Austria , at end April Toldi tried to enter Switzerland togheter with a convoy of trucks but was turned back at the frontier .
On 29 April he met Wilhelm Hottl in Feldkirch and by Hottl account , gave hime some six boxes of valuables ..
After hiding for some time in the French occupied zone , on the night of 11 August 45 , he delivered himself to the French authorities in the person of Colonel Henry Jung , as he was fearful of his fate and afraid that his life was in danger , he led the french to the hiding place of two bags (at Shruns , near St Anton ) which contained jewellery and some stones , emeralds , diamonds , etc .
After a few months in detention Toldi was released as no precise charge against him were filed , or perhaps he bought his captors off , and disappeared .
In 1947 he was reported to be living in Innsbruck and from then on no reliable sightings have been reported .

Gabriel asked if anyone can tell about today whereabouts of Toldi and here I can aswer quite accurately , Toldi is DEAD , if alive would 105 years old , so we can safely assume that by now he is really underground .
Toldi had a son ATTILA (quite a common name in Hungary) born at Szombathely 18 July 1935 , and today he should be 68 years old , a possibly well alive , he is probably the only one who by now can solve the mistery of the missing loot .
Toldi also had two stepdaughters from his wife prevoius marriage but I am not fully sure of their names and after some further research will see if can definetly identify them . Will keep you posted .

Yours

GLADIVM