Let's Build the Romanian Third and Fourth Armies!!!

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Yuri
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Postby Yuri » 13 Jul 2006 07:09

In the same document that quoted above, has found out one more interesting moment.
Thinking, that it will be interesting to everyone who investigates a situation on a site of 3-rd Romanian army during carrying out by armies of Red Army of operation "Uranus".


The central Archive of the Ministry of Defence of the Russian Federation
Fund 331 Inventory 5041 File 24 sheet 140
Prospecting report No 22
Prospecting Department of the Staff "AQUARIUM" * by 21 o'clock 00 min. on November, 23, 1942
….
The captured pilot of 3 squadrons of 1 prospecting group / Romanian/,
It is seized in area TCHERNYSHEWSKAJA, has shown:
3 squadron is part of 1 prospecting group.
The prospecting group will consist of 2 squadrons and serves Romanian army,
working on the Don front.
The squadron is based on air station TAZHINSKAJA.
In the same place a staff of 1 prospecting group.
In air station of planes Henkel-111 - 15,
Prospecting planes 12,
Transport planes - 6-8.
On November, 23 the crew of the plane has received a task to reconnoiter in area KLETSKAJA, BOKOWSKAJA,
PERELASOWSKIJ force, structure and a direction of impact of coming parts of Red Army.
The plane has landed in BOLSCHAJA DONTSCHINKA where the report from the commander from 1 Arm. Div has been handed, taking place in a ring of an environment
In the report it is underlined: transports 1 Arm. Div are in area to northwest from PERELASOWSKIJ.
The transport consist:
6 guns,
3 heavy machine guns,
3 manual machine guns,
551 rifle,
8 officers,
60 motor vehicles,
Besides there is up to 50 soldiers from 5, 6 and 13 Inf. Div / Romanian / .
At 8 o'clock 00 minutes on November, 23 in ¹ a place there has arrived the commander 15 Inf. Div. with mister of B.
15 Inf. Div., having half of structure, is at height to northwest from PERELASOWSKIJ.
From the report it is visible, that the exit from an ring of an environment in direction BOLSCHAJA DONTSCHINKA is organized.
Investigation is sent.
Plan a joint exit from an ring of an environment of parts 5 Inf. Div. and 1 Arm. Div.
….

==========

* - "AQUARIUM" - a code name of a staff of 5-th Tank Army.

/
udachi / Good Luck

Yuri

Yuri
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Postby Yuri » 13 Jul 2006 11:51

Has found out one more confirmation to that 7 Inf. Div. / the Romanian / has received updating by Germans after on November, 18 it has been allocated in a reserve.
The prospecting report ¹27 RD the STAFF "AQUARIUM" by 21 o'clock. 00 minutes on November, 28, 1942.

The captured soldier the Romanian seized on November, 27, 1942 in ASTACHOW, has shown: belongs to a prospecting battalion 7 Inf. Div. / the Romanian /
The division will consist from 14, 16, 37 Inf. Reg. and 51 Art. Reg.
On November, 18-19 it has been it has been taken off from defense /RYBNYJ, SREDNE GROMOW/ and it is deduced in a reserve.
On November, 23 has replenished with Germans - at the rate of one platoon of Germans on one company the Romanian.
On November, 26 the division has been thrown in fight.


/

udachi / Good luck

Yuri

cpa95
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Postby cpa95 » 13 Jul 2006 21:44

Yuri wrote:For example, as of morning on November, 23, 1942 German 22 Pz. Div. had not less than 119 tanks.

Thus, one tank batallion (in quantity of 50 tanks) and 129 IR (mot.) were in an encirclement in region Bolshaja Donschinka,
Medvezhij, Malaja Donschinka.

Others 69 tanks (their which 68 tanks were serviceable, and one faulty) were at this time region of settlement
Osery (to the south of river Kurtlak and to a southeast from Petrovka).
These tanks had no some fuel. Except for tanks here there were 156 more motor vehicles.
Taking place in Osery Germans expected, when transport planes will deliver to them fuel.


Hi Yuri,

you must be careful be reading original sources. The are containing many failures.

http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic ... c&start=90:
daily note 18.11.1942 for the HB B (vgl. Doerr, Der Feldzug nach Stalingrad):
14th PD: 51 tanks, 22nd PD: 40 tanks, 1st Rom. Arm. Div. 108 tanks (87 of them are "Pz.38t" with 3,7cm guns,
http://www.panzer-archiv.de/kampfpanzer ... nzer38.htm

See also with similar figures: http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopi ... 432#145432
The number of 87 Pz38t must be a failure in the german source, regarding to the fact, that 90 tanks of the 22. PD did not arrive in the aerea. The romanian division had a lot of R-2.

Additional sources: STOVES, Die 22., 25., 27., 233. Panzerdivision and KEHRIG, Stalingrad.

Greetings
Thomas

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Victor
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Postby Victor » 15 Jul 2006 20:09

cpa95 wrote:14th PD: 51 tanks, 22nd PD: 40 tanks, 1st Rom. Arm. Div. 108 tanks (87 of them are "Pz.38t" with 3,7cm guns,
http://www.panzer-archiv.de/kampfpanzer ... nzer38.htm


And websites can also contain mistakes. The Romanian 1st Armored Division had 113 operational tanks at the beginning of Operation Uranus, not 108, of which 93, not 87, were Skoda LT vz 35 ( German designation Pz 35(t), not 38(t) ).

Michi
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Postby Michi » 16 Jul 2006 21:00

Victor wrote:
cpa95 wrote:14th PD: 51 tanks, 22nd PD: 40 tanks, 1st Rom. Arm. Div. 108 tanks (87 of them are "Pz.38t" with 3,7cm guns,
http://www.panzer-archiv.de/kampfpanzer ... nzer38.htm


And websites can also contain mistakes. The Romanian 1st Armored Division had 113 operational tanks at the beginning of Operation Uranus, not 108, of which 93, not 87, were Skoda LT vz 35 ( German designation Pz 35(t), not 38(t) ).


Just for the memory:

The 1st Armored/Tank Division (Romanian)


First row:
18/11/1942
Second row: 20/11/1942
Third row: 30/11/1942
Datas in brackets: The Day Before


1st Armored/Tank-Division (Romanian):
operational:......(??) ??.............(122) 108..........(12) 03
Pz II:............... (??) ??......................--..................--
Pz 35(t):.......... (??) ??......................87.................--
Pz III/50kz:..... (??) --......................--..................--
Pz III/50lg:..... (??) --.......................--.................--
Pz III/75kz:..... (??) ??..................... 10.................02
Pz IV/75kz:..... (??) --.......................--.................--
Pz IV/75lg:..... (??) ??.......................11.................01
PzBefWg:........ (??) --.......................--.................--

14 tanks lost on 19/11/1942
07 tanks lost on 29/11/1942

18/11/1942:
no datas given
20/11/1942:
no datas given
30/11/1942:
in longer overhauling/repairs service: 27



And Victor you are still not correct with the Number of operational and available tanks of the 1st Tank-Division (Romanian):
German Panzerlage says :
On 19th November 1942 there were 122 tanks ready for fighting.
On day later (20th Nov. 1942) the famous number 108 is for the ready for fighting tanks.
With this 108 tanks the failed counter-attack was made.

===============================================

The 22nd Armored/Tank Division (German)


First row:
18/11/1942
Second row: 20/11/1942
Third row: 30/11/1942
Datas in brackets: The Day Before


22nd Armored/Tank Division (German):
operational:......(??) ??................(38.) 31..........(07) 09
Pz II:............... (??) ??......................01..................--
Pz 38(t):.......... (??) ??......................01.................01
Pz III/50kz:..... (??) --......................--..................--
Pz III/50lg:..... (??) --.......................09.................01
Pz III/75kz:..... (??) ??..................... 09.................02
Pz IV/75kz:..... (??) --.......................01.................01
Pz IV/75lg:..... (??) ??.......................10.................04
PzBefWg:........ (??) --.......................--.................--

07 tanks lost on 19/11/1942
02 tanks repaired on 29/11/1942

18/11/1942:
no datas given
20/11/1942:
in overhauling/repairs service: 19
not with the Division because of technical malfunctions, while the march to new location: 22
not with the Division, stayed in old location because of attached to various infantry units: 28
30/11/1942:
in overhauling/repairs service: 22




MfG Michi

cpa95
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Postby cpa95 » 17 Jul 2006 18:46

Hi,

here is what i found in some books:

according to the daily report of XXXXVIII. PK 16.11./18.11.1942:
22. PD: 11 P IV (lang+kurz), 22 P III, 5 Pz. "t"
1. rom. PD: 21 P III/P IV, 87 Pz. "t"
quoted from Kehrig, Stalingrad, p. 668.

according to Tieke, Im Südabschnitt der Ostfront, p. 65: The same figures as Michi wrote, excepted 87 Pz 38t (also: Stoves, Die 22. .PD, p. 50) for the 1st rom. Arm. Division and 34 tanks for the 22. PD in training, 15 tanks by various infantry units (5 under VII., XIII., LV. AK).

The P III and P IV of the 1st rom. Arm. Division were given on 18.11.1942 from the "Deutsches Panzer-Ausbildungskommando bei rumänischem AOK 3", Hauptmann Dünsch, Pz.Lehr-Regiment, Wünsdorf.
quoted from Stoves, Die 22. PD, p. 51. Planned was a handing over of 17 P III, 14 P IV, 2 Befehls-Panzer to the rom. tank regiment. The absent tank could be at Millorowo on 18.11.1942.

@Michi: Is there a source for the 35t? May be, the 38t is a mistake. There is a book about the 35t-tank.

Greetings
Thomas

Michi
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Postby Michi » 17 Jul 2006 19:38

cpa95 wrote:@Michi: Is there a source for the 35t? May be, the 38t is a mistake. There is a book about the 35t-tank.

Greetings
Thomas
Somewhere on the 2nd page or the 3rd page, here in this thread.
And also on Victors homepage:
It had 501 officers, 538 NCOs, 11,592 soldiers, 9,335 rifles, 278 LMGs, 61 HMGs, 67 mortars, 36 guns and howitzers, 1,358 vehicles, 109 R-2 tanks, 11 T-3 tanks, 11 T-4 tanks, 2 captured Soviet tanks, 10 AB armored cars (Sdkfz 222) and 8 TB armored personnel carriers (SPW 251).

R-2 are LT-35.

MfG Michi

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Victor
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Postby Victor » 18 Jul 2006 19:58

Michi, the data I gave is from page no. 2 of File no. 394/Divizia 1 Blindata Fund, Romanian National Military Archives. It's a post-action report for the 1942/43 campaign. I tend to trust this source more than the ones listed above, because it's a primary one.

I know what is written on my website, but the article in question hasn't been updated in a long time, nor will it probably be too soon, although it needs a lot of adjustments.

cpa95
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Postby cpa95 » 18 Jul 2006 21:27

Hi,

quoted from Spielberger, Die Panzerkampfwagen 35t und 38t und ihre Abarten, p. 139/140:
The Romanian Army bought 126 S-II-a (LT-Vz 35, german name "Panzerkampfwagen 35 (t) ) tanks during 191936-1939, which were named "R-2". These tanks were all given to the 1st rom. Arm. Division.
In the summer of 1942 the Wehrmacht gave the last Pz 35t (via "Ausfuhrgemeinschaft des OKW) to Romania. Some of them became a SPG, mounted a 7,62cm Pak M 42.

This agrees to Victors post.

Greetings
Thomas

Yuri
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Postby Yuri » 18 Jul 2006 23:55

Hi, All
In the house in which I live and in a building opposite to this house where my Internet - the supplier will lodge, have struck lightnings.
Huge picture!
In result all electronic systems have broken.
Five days there were not any opportunity to hold communication.
But it so to a word.

cpa95 wrote:you must be careful be reading original sources. The are containing many failures.

http://forum.panzer-archiv.de/viewtopic ... c&start=90:
daily note 18.11.1942 for the HB B (vgl. Doerr, Der Feldzug nach Stalingrad):
14th PD: 51 tanks, 22nd PD: 40 tanks, 1st Rom. Arm. Div. 108 tanks (87 of them are "Pz.38t" with 3,7cm guns,
http://www.panzer-archiv.de/kampfpanzer ... nzer38.htm

See also with similar figures: http://www.feldgrau.net/phpBB2/viewtopi ... 432#145432
The number of 87 Pz38t must be a failure in the german source, regarding to the fact, that 90 tanks of the 22. PD did not arrive in the aerea. The romanian division had a lot of R-2.

Additional sources: STOVES, Die 22., 25., 27., 233. Panzerdivision and KEHRIG, Stalingrad.

Greetings
Thomas


Let's try to understand, that this phrase contains:
"On 17 November, the 22. Panzer-Div. arrived on the left wing of the Romanian 3d Army with around 30 tanks instead of its total of 120. A part of the remaining 90 tanks lay along the route of march, while the balance would not start because mice and rats had eaten through the electrical cables ".


If it was possible to know quantity of tanks, which on November, 17 " lay along the route of march " by means of simple arithmetic action, we could find out as well that quantity of tanks 22 Panzer Division which, ostensibly, have eaten mice and rats.
If we knew precisely that quantity of tanks which have been eaten with mice we could find out and that, how many the kg of a special tape was necessary for having for restoration of serviceability of tanks 22th Pz. Div.
Well-known, that mice and rats eat isolation of an electric cable.
Copper wire (vein) of a cable not on forces for a teeth of the mouse.
Even the rat cannot have a bite a metal wire (vein) of a cable.
For restoration of the damaged isolation of an electric cable there is a special tape.
With the help of this tape the crew of the tank under the direction of the expert can quickly restore such type damage.
I have received education in institute on a speciality the electrical engineer, and well I know, how it to make practically.

You should explain - that prevented Germans to restore isolation of a cable in November 1942? You will not assert, what it Adolf Gitler has not allowed? It is difficult to believe and what Germans did not have such tape?
In what then the reason?

Except for that. We admit, that these 90 tanks were not in area river Chir during the period from November, 19 till November, 30.
We admit, that it so. But, then it is necessary to give the answer and where these 90 tanks have got to?
In fact, these tanks belonged 22th Panzer Division, and this division was in area Chir (Chernyschewskaja) up to the end of December.

Now let's go further.
The tank as everyone the mechanical product, can have breakage.
For elimination of breakages in tanks, armored troop-carriers and automobiles in a tank division there were special repair battalions (mobile workshops).
Therefore it is necessary to find out quantity of tanks which demanded repair and have been restored from November, 17 till November, 23, 1942.

For Russian those brigades it is possible under archival documents as repair of tanks was carried out.
For example, on the part of Russian in fights against 22-nd Panzer Division the 8-n Separate Guards Tank Brigade (8th SGTBr) participated. This brigade has arrived to area Chir, approximately, at the same time when here there has arrived German 22-n a Panzer Division.
We see what picture in 8th SGTBr.

Central Archive Minister of Defense of the Russian Federation
Fund 331, Inventory 5041, File 29, Sheet 326,327,328

The radiogramm

To whom: "Mane" … … … … … ….. 15.00
Whence: 8-n the Separate Guards Tank Brigade … … ….. on November, 12, 1942

The report
I inform, that 8-n the Separate Guards Tank Brigade to operations is ready. Incorporates at 22 o'clock 00 minutes on November, 12, 1942
a/ On the move: tanks "KV"-16,
b/ In the morning on November, 13, 1942 will be on the move-17
c/ And all will be ready to an outcome of day on November, 13 1942 from list structure of 18 tanks " KV" - 18 piece.
Tanks - "T-60"-27 piece.

On arrived from structure to 1st Tank Corps five tanks c trawls - on the move 3; two tanks T-34 and two trawls are faulty - demand repair; crews of the arrived tanks are not hammered together.
511th Separate Fire-Throwing Tank Battalion subordinated to a brigade has in structure:
Tanks " KV " - 8 piece.
Tanks " T-34 "-10 - "-
Two tanks KV - have lit up during time fulfilment of a march from station; and, one has burned down completely (completely), at the second above the motor the reservation is broken.
One tank T-34 is left at station of unloading Serebrjanaja; it is required to replace the motor.

The chief of a staff 8 Guards a separate tank brigade
Guards the major /Mezhican/

==================
*- "Mane" - the code name of a staff of 5-th tank army


Now about tanks from 1 Arm. Div. According to Russian for November, 19 this division had 100-120 tanks.
For example the order on íàñòóëïåíèå the commander of 47-th Guards RD

The Central Archive of the Ministry of Defence of the Russian Federation
Fund 331 Inventory 5041 File 10 Sheet 166

The fighting order ¹ 83
Staff 47 GRD
Field army

1. In a strip of approach of a division in the first echelon defend: 2/36 IR 9 ID, 1 and 2/39 IR 14 ID (Romanian).
On a boundary to the south spurs of a ravine (2 kms to the north of a mark 176.8) northern surburb Big, height 188.0 and presumably up to two battalions in depth.
The nearest reserves up to infantry a shelf in Blinowskij and in area Verhne-Fomihinsky up to 100 tanks presumably 2 TR 1 TD.

The commander 47 GRD
guards the general - major /Fokanow/
The chief of a staff
guards the colonel /Golosko/


And what conducting about OoB 1 Arm. Div. the commander of a field company has given is to the division. This Romanian captain has been taken in a captivity on November, 21, 1942 in area of settlement Zhirki (Zhirkowskij).

The Central Archive of the Ministry of Defence of the RF
Fund 331 Inventory 5041 File 24 sheet 136

21/11/42 in area to the north of 2 kms ZHIRKI 3 soldiers of 3-rd motorized a shelf of 1st Arm. Div. /Romanian/,
4 persons from pioneer a battalion of 1st Arm. Div. in area of 4 km to northwest from SREDNE-CARICINSKIJ are captured. One of them the commander pioneer company 1-st pioneer a battalion of 1st Arm. Div. in a grade of the captain.
On interrogation the captain has shown: 1-n Arm. Div. it was deployed in PERELASOVSKIJ.

19/11/42 has received a task to leave for area NIZHNE-FOMIKHINSKIJ, KOROTKOWSKIJ, where to occupy defense by front to the west and to attack the Russian columns going on the south through KOROTKOWSKIJ and to suspend their promotion, thus to provide systematic deviation of units 14-th ID.
A final task was: panzer regiment together with two motor-shooting regiments to leave for area PESCHANYJ. of 4-th motorized a shelf to leave for area lake, that 7 km to the east from KLINOWOJ.

In 4.00 20/11/42 attack began. Losses to 10.00 20/11/42 were: 7 tanks. Loss in motor-shooting regiments does not know. The motorized division will consist of 1-st tank regiment, 3-rd and 4-th motorized regiments, mechanized artillery regiment, mechanized the company, reserved the company, two AT company, one company of air defence. Arms in tank regiments 132 tanks. From them average 12 ton - 100 tanks, heavy 25 ton- 25-30 tanks.

In tank regiment two tank battalions. Motorized regiments includes 3 motorized battalions, one to AT company and a number of auxiliary services. The motorized division was in an operative reserve of the commander of 3-rd Army. From a reserve it has been thrown in fight.

The commander of a division - divisional general FERGE RAD.


Thus, in November, 1942 Russian (due to data from the commander of a pieoneer company and from others captured) had a correct picture about forces 1 Arm. Div.
Well knew Russian and where there were tanks 22 Panzer Division.

udachi / good luck
Yuri

cpa95
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Postby cpa95 » 19 Jul 2006 11:52

Yuri wrote:If it was possible to know quantity of tanks, which on November, 17 " lay along the route of march " by means of simple arithmetic action, we could find out as well that quantity of tanks 22 Panzer Division which, ostensibly, have eaten mice and rats.


Hi Yuri,

i think, the question was to quantify the operational tanks of 22nd PD and of 1st Rom. Arm. Division, from 19.11. to 23.11.1942.
The german sources to this point are clear now. This number of tanks is impossible:
"For example, as of morning on November, 23, 1942 German 22 Pz. Div. had not less than 119 tanks." Your conclusion was: "Everything, that is written in the European sources (memoirs, articles, historical works and so on) about force and actions XLVIII Pz. Corps (22 Pz. Div., 1 Arm. Div., 354 IR 213 ID) at attempt to reflect impact of Russian troops of 5-th tank army, it is full nonsense."

Some sources are describing the "rats and mouses". I think, its a minor problem and it covers only the 38t. The major problem (PIII and P IV) was the total absence of winter equipment ("Eisstollen"), neccessary for the march of more then 100 kilometres on street - Stoves, 22. PD. Most of the losses were caused by this problem.

But I think, the cause of and responsibility for this problems are not important for answering the question above.

Greetings
Thomas
Last edited by cpa95 on 19 Jul 2006 15:37, edited 1 time in total.

Yuri
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Postby Yuri » 19 Jul 2006 15:26

From all Soviet armies involved in operation "Uranium", 5-th Tank Army was the most powerful army.
This army carried out the leading part at a stage of creation of a ring around of the German-Romanian grouping operated in area Stalingrad.
It is visible, what even the most powerful Soviet army did not outnumber the German Corps.

Forces of 5th Tank Army (general - lieutenant P. L. Romanenko)
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Infantrymen & Tankmen: 55 376 person;
Cavalrymen: 14 571 person;
In total men: 69 947 person.
All Tanks in 5th Tank Army = 408
KV = 68; T34 =168; T70 & T60 = 172
From them:
Fire-throwing tanks of 39 pieces
including:
- KV = 18
- T34 = 21
Trawlers T34 = 10
Tanks of management (tanks of commanders) T34 = 10
Total the specialized reserved technics - 59 tanks:
In structure of tank brigades - 349 tanks of all types, including T60&T70 = 172 pieces.
note: weight T60 - 5.5 ton.


Manual machine guns = 1644
Heavy machine guns = 611
Mortars = 1388
AT Rifle = 1547;
AT guns = 319;
Regimental Art. = 84;
Divisional Art. = 229+140
Howitzers = 50
Guns = 66;
RS («Katjusha») = 75
=================================

UNITS 5th Tank Army (general - lieutenant P. L. Romanenko)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1Òank Corps:
OoB: 88, 117, 159 TBr, 44 MRBr, 10 Rec.Bat., 308 SGMort.Div.
5725 person;
KV = 8; T34 = 76; T70&T60 = 74; BA = 28; Motorcycle (M-72) = 40

26 Tank Corps
OoB: 19, 157, 216 TBr; 14 MRBr; 15 SRBat.; 56 McBat.; 226 AAReg
5756 person;
KV = 24; T34 = 67; T70&T60 = 70; BA = 48; Motorcycle ( M-72) = 116

8 GSTBr (Guard Separate TBr) :
OoB: 580, 581 TB, MRGBat.
1024 person;
KV = 18; T34 = 4: T70 = 1; T60 = 27;

510 SFTB (Separate Fiere Tank Batallion - Otdel'niy Ognemetniy Tankoviy Batalion):
117 person;
KV =10; T34 =11

511 SFTB (Separate Fiere Tank Batallion - Otdel'niy Ognemetniy Tankoviy Batalion):
117 person;
KV = 8; T34 = 10

8 Cav. Corps:
OoB: 21, 55, 112 MCav. Div. (Mount Cav. Div. - Gornaja Kavaleriyskaja Divisija)
14 571 person;

8 SMcR (Separate Motorcycle Regiment):
843 person;
BA = 10; Motorcycle (M-72) = 203

14 Guard RD:
7779 person;

47 Guard RD:
7540 person;

119 RD (from the middle of December 54 Guards RD):
9574 person;

124 RD (since November, 19 - 50 Guards RD) :
5173 person;

159 RD:
3494 person;

346 RD:
8234 person;

Note:
[person] = all private soldiers + all NCO, without officers
All this all. All = infantrymen + gunners + signalmen + cooks + the clerk + veterinaries + and so on.
However, officers in this number do not enter.
For an example:
Numerical structure 47 Guards RD
officers = 1011 person
NCO = 1323 person
private soldiers = 6217 person
private soldiers + NCO = 6217 + 1323 = 7540 person

The operative report ¹7 Staff 47 Guards RD 14.00 3/11/42

1. A disposition of units without changes.
2. Parts with staff spend fighting preparation and political preparation.
- 437 Rif.Reg. was engaged on engineering, studying of an equipment of the weapon and carried out shooting on the second exercise initial ñòðåëüá from a rifle. Shot 434 person, has executed 262 person.
- 473 Rif.Reg. was engaged in drill, studied an equipment of all kinds of the weapon, studied tactical preparation: " the Fighting order of a shooting platoon, mouths " according to the order ¹306 also carried out{spent} shooting on the first and second exercises initial shooting from a rifle:
- On the first exercise shot 98 person, has executed 72 person.
- On the second exercise shot 96 person, has executed 65 person.

5. A complete set of a division:
Commanding structure 1011 person (officers) j,
Younger commanding structure 1323 person (NCO),
Ordinary structure 6217 person (men).
Only 8667 person
Horses - 1077,
Motor vehicles - 44
Rifles - 7612
Automatic devices - 917
Machine guns manual - 241,
Machine guns heavy - 103,
Machine guns antiaircraft - 8,
AT rifles - 260
Guns of 122 mm - 12 pieces
Guns of 76 mm - 31,
Guns 45 mm-28,
Guns of 37 mm-5
Mortars of 120 mm - 17,
Mortars of 82 mm - 96,
Mortars of 50 mm - 93
Flame throwers - 24
Portable radio sets of all systems - 29

The commander 47 Guards RD
Guards the general - major /Fokanow/
The chief of a staff
Guards the colonel /Golosko/



=====================================================

The battle order of attack of 5-th Tank Army (general - lieutenant P. L. Romanenko) 19/11/1942
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EBD: Echelon of Break of Defense (EPO: Eshelon proryva oborony)
(Infantry force)&(Tank force) ------> attacked opponent

(14 GRD + 47 GRD) & ( 8 GSTBr + 511 SFTB + 5 tank from 1TCr for mine trawl) -----> the right flank - against 14 Inf. Div. (rom).
(119 RD + 124 RD) & (216 TBr + 510 SFTB+ 5 tank from 1 TC for Mine trawl) -----> the left flank - against 5 Inf. Div. (rom).

EDS: Echelon of Development of Success (ERU: Eshelon razvitija uspeha)

26 TC (without 216TBr):---->-- direct East: (Perelasovskij, Kalch)
1 TC (without one tank company 117TBr):---->- direc Southeast (Ljapichew, Nizhne-Chirskaja, The Railway Bridge through the river Don);
8 Cav. Coprs: ---->- direc South: (Obliwskaja,Tormosin,Morosovskaja)
8 SMcR: ---->-- All (South and West and Eastl)

2-nd Echelon
159 RD

Reserve
346 RD (without 1166 RR)
-----------------------------------------------------------
================================

On November, 18th, 1942 during between 16 and 17 o'clock staff of army has received the message of the following words:
"Send motor vehicles for reception of fur gloves".
It was a prearranged signal. The sense of this prearranged signal was opened with the special table. This table was stored at the chief of a staff of army.
Only three persons knew about existence of the special table, namely: the commander of army, the chief of a staff and the chief of an operations section.
According to the table of code signals this message said:
"The beginning of attack of infantry on November, 19th at 8 o'clock 50 minutes".
Simultaneously it meant, that artillery preparation of attack should begin at 7 o'clock 30 minutes of that day.
Duration of artillery preparation 1 hour of 20 minutes (80 minutes).

At the moment of formation of a boiler number of men of the German-Romanian grouping which have appeared in this boiler, has made 400 thousand men. (according to record Greiner for November, 28th, 1942).
By the moment of end of creation of strong external and internal fronts around Stalingrad number of this grouping was reduced up to 300 thousand men. (according to record Greiner for December, 2nd, 1942).
By the moment of the beginning of operation "Ring" (on January, 9th) in Stalingrad remains 250 thousand men.
==================================
Data on results of operations of 5-th Tank Army in offensive operation near Stalingrad
From November, 19 till November, 25, 1942

Are routed: 5, 14, 9 Inf. Div., 1 Arm. Div and 7 Cav. Div. the Romanian and 22 Pz. Div Germans.
===============================================================
The name .................................. To destroy ................... Is taken
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Tanks........................................... 221 ................... ........ 251
Planes.......................................... 43 ................... .............2
Motorcycles.................................. 95................................939
Guns............................................ 553.............................537
The soldier and officers................... 24 108.........................27 632
Machines..................................... 1107............................1 566
Tractors........................................ 2.................................15
================================================================

It is freed from a captivity of soldiers of Red Army 5450 person.

5-n the Tank Army has lost:
========================
Killed - 884 person;
Wounded - 4 187 person;
Frost-bitten - 13 person;
Was missing - 7 person;
Patients - 122 person;
For other reasons - 25 person
-------------------------------------------
Total losses 5315 person.


/
udachi / Good Luck

Yuri

P.S.

Battle of Order 5th Tank Army
The central Archive of the Ministry for Defenses of the Russian Federation
Fund 331 Inventory 5041 File 10 Sheet 42

The Table of Code Signals
The central Archive of the Ministry for Defenses of the Russian Federation
Fund 331 Inventory 5041 File 17 Sheet 30

Numerical structure 47 Guards RD
CAMD RF
Fund 331 Inventory 5041 File 24 Sheet 228


Earlier these documents were not published anywhere.
It is my archival find.

Yuri
Last edited by Yuri on 19 Jul 2006 15:33, edited 1 time in total.

cpa95
Member
Posts: 114
Joined: 10 Jul 2006 08:12
Location: Germany

Postby cpa95 » 19 Jul 2006 15:33

Hi Yuri

fine informations, thanks a lot 8-)
Do you have any datas for the encirclement of 6th army in the first 10 days?

Greetings
Thomas

Yuri
Member
Posts: 935
Joined: 01 Jun 2006 11:24
Location: Russia

Postby Yuri » 19 Jul 2006 16:17

Hi, Thomas

The data on 6-th army at me while are not present. It is very complex and long work.
For today I have interesting data on 3-rd Romanian army.
In particular, I managed to find out documents on how passed negotiations about capitulation to the Romanian grouping in area Paspopinskaj.
For not clear reason in the European books this grouping designate as Gr. Lascar.
Actually this grouping was headed by the commander of 5-th Inf. Div. general Mazarini.
I managed to find out the document on how the Romanian general has been killed, probably, it was the commander of 15-th infantry division.
I can tell, that very beautifully made out Map 13 on this site
http://users.pandora.be/stalingrad/maps ... map_10.htm

"Operation Uranus - The Russian Movements to encircle the German 6th Army "

Much to our regret, how events during the period from November, 19 till November, 30, 1942 in area of river Chir were developed is there completely incorrectly shown.
Including, there the course of operations c by participation of 22-nd Panzer Division in area Bol. Dontschinka, Medwezhij, Chernyschewskaj is incorrectly shown.

udachi / Good Luck

Yuri

Yuri
Member
Posts: 935
Joined: 01 Jun 2006 11:24
Location: Russia

Postby Yuri » 19 Jul 2006 18:12

Hi, All

Somebody can tell, where it is possible to receive this map, but only with clearer inscriptions of names of settlements and the rivers.
http://users.pandora.be/stalingrad/maps ... map_10.htm
«Operation Uranus - The Russian Movements to encircle the German 6th Army»
Unfortunately, now on this map it is impossible to read names of settlements and the rivers.
Then, it is very interesting to find out - what sources the one who has made this wonderful map used.
It would be desirable to execute the comparative analysis of these sources and that it was possible to find out in archives.

udachi / Good Luck

Yuri


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