Let's Build the Romanian Third and Fourth Armies!!!

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cpa95
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Postby cpa95 » 19 Jul 2006 18:46

Hi Yuri,

a detailed and daily view of the operations of 22 PD is given by Stoves, Die 22. PD, p.47-80:

10.11.1942: 22. PD received a telegram from "Deutschen General bei AOK 8" according to an order from HG B. The movement (250km) to Kalatschev via Millerowo-east had to begun during the night. Weather 11.11.1842: - 20 ° Celsius. Panzer-Werkstatt-Komp. 204 at Kantemirowka. Available during the march was one light "Zug" of Pz.Werst.-Komp. 204 during the movement of PR 204. Oberst v. Oppeln-Bronikowski took all available tanks, also the 16 P II and the 24 Pz.38t (for this tanks was ordered to give them to annother unit - Pz.Verband 700 - 27. PD). 39 tanks of all together 108 stood still in the aerea Tschertkowo-Mankowa, by technical problems.
15.11.1942: Reaching the new operation aerea, the 22. PD had 31 tanks available. At all the PR 204 lost 34 tanks during the march.
18.11.1942/19.11.1942: 22. PD had 42 tanks available, a few more reported as "incoming".
18.11.1942. most of elements of 22.PD had reached the aerea north of river Kurtlak: Perelassowskij-Medweshij-Kalatshev. Available:
42 tanks, II./PGR 129 (SPW-Btl.), 2 light (gep.) Schützenkompanien (le./mitt. SPW), 2 Pz-Jäger-Komp. (SLF/mot. Zug with 7,5cm-Pak), Sturmpanzer-Kompanie (10), I./PzAR 140 (with 2 Batt. SFL).
20.11.1942: Some more tanks reached the aerea (totally now appr. 50), P II and Pz 38t (4./PR 204). More units: I. (mot.)/PGR 129, Kradschützen-Btl. 24, the rest of PzAR 140, Heeres-Flak-Abt. mot. 289, Pz.Nachrichten-Abt. 140, the rest of PzJägerAbt. 140, Pz.Pio.Komp. 140, FEB 140.
losses from 20.11. to 30.11.1942: 22 tanks, losses from 5.12. to 6.12.1942: 4 tanks, totaly: 26 tanks losses in action. 4 tanks were given to the rom. troops, 9 of 29 tanks available, still with no winter eqiupment (report Gen. von Choltitz to General Staff/OB Heeresgruppe Don, 5.12.1942). Other losses of appr. 50% were reported for the SPW/SFL/Sturmpanzer/artillery-units.
6.12.1942: available 9 P III/IV, 1 PzBef.Wagen as Kampfstaffel/PR 204. Some more 15-20 tanks are operational in a limited way in up to 4 days (report Hptm v. Villebois, Pz. Instandsetzungs in Pokrowskij/Ib-Staffel).

Greetings
Thomas

cpa95
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Postby cpa95 » 19 Jul 2006 19:00

Hi Yuri,

i thinks, its from the maps No. C49 "Frolow" and No. D49 "Stalingrad", Heereskarte OKH, 1: 300.000.

Greetings
Thomas

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Yuri
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Postby Yuri » 19 Jul 2006 20:12

Hi, Thomas

I very badly understand abbreviated names of units in German. It is difficult for me to understand designations.
You here could not be so kind and give a small lesson - to decipher some designations.

udachi / Good Luck

Yuri

cpa95
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Postby cpa95 » 19 Jul 2006 20:45

Hi Yuri:

an attempt:

Kradschützen = motor-cycles
PzAR = artillery regiment of a tank division, motorized artillery guns or with Self-Propelled-Guns (SPG = SFL)
PGR = a motorized infantry regiment of a tank division
SPW = "Schützenpanzerwagen", light armoured, half-tracked vehicles
Heeres-Flak-Abteilung = AA-Guns (8,8cm, 3,7cm or 2cm)
Pz.-Jäger = anti-tank-units with AT-Guns (SPG or motorized guns)
PR = Panzerregiment = tank regiment

Btw: a list of abbreviations for german-english names of german units would be great for this forum!

Greetings
Thomas
Last edited by cpa95 on 19 Jul 2006 21:41, edited 1 time in total.

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Yuri
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Postby Yuri » 19 Jul 2006 21:14

Der Vielen Dank, Thomas!
Now I shall study that you have informed.

/
udachi / Good Luck

Yuri

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Yuri
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Postby Yuri » 21 Jul 2006 23:12

As a rule, European as, however, and Russian sources like to repeat, that supposedly the Romanian defense has failed from the first impact.
It is far not so.
On a site of 5-th Tank Army break of defense was difficult business. And though losses in alive force at Russian were at this stage rather small, losses in tanks were rather significant.
The first attack of infantry and tanks from structure of the Echelon of Break of Defense on a position the Romanian has appeared unsuccessful.
Failure speaks a site where defense was broken through with 47-th Guards shooting division, first of all, that cooperating with this division 8-th separate Guards tank brigade and 511-th separate fire-throwing tank battalion because of snow drifts have lost orientation and have got off from a route. As a result tanks have got in a strip of approach of 119-th Rifle Division operated to the left of 47-th Guards Rifle Division.

CAMD RF
Fund 331 Inventory 5041 File 24 Sheet 261
The fighting report No 7 Staff 47 Guards RD 10.20 19/11/42

47-th Guards Rifle Division in attack has passed in 8.50 19/11/42 and moves ahead.
Having seized MTS, by 10.00 units send on a line of the road going from BOL’SCHOJ on KLINOWOJ - 500 meters to the south of the big road.
8-n Guards TBr with 511 SFTB (a separate fire-throwing tank battalion) in attack of a first line did not participate. Her 304-th Tank Batallion with two company 511-th SFTB (fire-throwing that battalion) - was late for 30 minutes. And her 303-rd Tank Batallion with one company 511-th SFTB was late for 50 minutes and, having curtailed to the left, has gone in a strip of neighbours 119 Rif. Div. In direction KLINOWOJ.

The commander 47 GRD
Guards the general-major /Fokanow/

The chief of a staff
Guards the colonel /Golosko/


The snow has played with Russian one more malicious joke.
The tanks equipped by trawls not only could not neutralize anti-tank mine fields because of a deep snow which fell in all night both all the morning long and, as a result, has covered mines.
Having swept on mine fields, tanks with trawls have not neutralized a mine but only have only naked these mines from under snows.
Moved on a trace of trawls fire-throwing tanks were undermined on mines.

As a result by the moment of the approach to a front line of an echelon of development of success (1-st and 26-th ÒÊ), the Romanian defense has not been broken through. Therefore tank corps have been compelled to be unwrapped for break of defense.
The first attack of tank corps has strongly upset defense the Romanian, but they still kept key points. As a result, it was necessary to prepare for those corps for one more attack.
Only after the second attack of tank cases the main strip of the Romanian defense has been broken through.
But even after that clean break to provide in the first day of operation it was not possible, therefore the cavalry of 8-th Cav. Corps could not enter into this day in break.

During from November, 19 till November, 25th in fights with Romanians of loss of tanks were such.

Against 1 Arm. Div. Operated 216-éTBr together with 510 SFTB, and as 19-th TBr.
Losses of tanks in 216-th TBr and 510 SFTB can be defined from following documents.

CAMD RF
Fund 331 Inventory 5041 File 29 Sheet 141
Operative report 135 Staff 26 ÒÊ 18/11/42 on 14.30

14 MRBr Motor transport - 196 cars, 7 from them under repair. An armored troop-carrier "Universal" - 10 on the move. Armored cars 7 - on the move.

157 TBr
T34 = 32 from them 1 under repair, T70 = 21 - on the move.
Motor transport - 105 from them 12 under repair (cargo and special)

19 TBr
T34 = 32 - on the move, T70 = 21 - on the move.
Motor transport - 105, from them under repair 8.

216 TBr
KV = 24 - on the move, T70 = 27 from them 1 under repair, T34 = 4 on the move.
Motor transport cargo and special cars 95, from them under repair 7.

26 STR motor transport of 48 cars, all are serviceable.

146 and 174 MPB - restoration of an equipment of the case

2263 AAReg covers an assembly area

The chief of a staff 26 Tank Corps
The colonel /Zinov’ew/

The chief of an operations section
The lieutenant colonel /Belousow/




Fund 331 Inventory 5041 File 9 Sheet 175
The fighting report 34 The Staff 216 TBr 12.00 26/11/42

The brigade by 17.00 25.11.42 in structure of 580 Tanr Bat., 581 Tank Bat and 510 SFTB, one company MRGB, battery AA, RTO - has concentrated in area northeast surburb Perelazowskij. To area Perelazowskij has arrived: KV = 14; ÊÂ (fire-throwing) = 3; T34 = 3; T34 (fire-throwing) = 2; T70 = 4.

The brigade is engaged in survey and restoration of an equipment.

The chief of a staff 216 TBr
The captain /Malyshew/


===================================
From here it is possible to define{determine} losses in tanks with 19/11/42 on 25/11/42.

216 TBr and 510 SFTB (a separate fire-throwing tank battalion)
KV = 24 - 14 = 10;
KV (f) = 10 - 3 = 7;
T34 = 4 - 3 = 1;
T4 (f) = 11 - 2 = 9;
T70 = (27 - 1) - 4 = 22;


Thus: on 12.00 26/11/42 of loss in tanks on 216-th TBr and 510-th SFTB were equaled 49 tanks.

Losses in other brigades next time.

/

udachi / Good Luck

Yuri

P.S.
All the documents specified above are published for the first time.

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Victor
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Postby Victor » 22 Jul 2006 07:42

Yuri, a big thanks for your last post. I am very interested in the losses of the 216th and 19th Tank Brigades and 119th Rifle Division, because these units (or parts of them) appear in Romanian reports as the ones facing Romanian 1st Armored Division during its attack West of Shirkovsky on 20 November 1942. It would be interesting to know how many of the losses you posted were caused by mechanical failure and how many by enemy (Romanian) action. This way we can determine if the Romanian tankers overclaimed and to what extent.

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Yuri
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Postby Yuri » 22 Jul 2006 10:25

Victor wrote:Yuri, a big thanks for your last post. I am very interested in the losses of the 216th and 19th Tank Brigades and 119th Rifle Division, because these units (or parts of them) appear in Romanian reports as the ones facing Romanian 1st Armored Division during its attack West of Shirkovsky on 20 November 1942. It would be interesting to know how many of the losses you posted were caused by mechanical failure and how many by enemy (Romanian) action. This way we can determine if the Romanian tankers overclaimed and to what extent.

Hi, Victor

In fights on November, 20th against 1-st Arm. Div. fighting losses 216 TBr and 19 TBr were equal 19 tanks. Now divide it 19 tanks on types I can not, but basically make such probably.
According to a staff 26 Tank Corps the opponent (that is 1 Arm. Div) has lost 8 tanks.
It, by the way, will well be coordinated with those data which were given by the Romanian captain - the commander pioneer company. According to the Romanian captain 1 Arm. Div. Has lost 7 tanks.
Thus, on November, 20th 1-st Pz. Reg. Had no big loss However this day on November, 20th very much big losses had 3-rd motorized regiment.
Actually, this regiment as the organized fighting force has stopped the existence.

Victor, you could not explain a word meaning "overclaimed" in last offer of your last post
"This way we can determine if the Romanian tankers overclaimed and to what extent ".

Excuse, but I still badly understand on àíãëèéñêè and could not understand sense of this word.

udachi / Good Luck

Yuri

cpa95
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Postby cpa95 » 22 Jul 2006 10:56

Hi Yuri,

i have annother question:
acc. to german sources main parts of the I. Tankkorps suffered heavy losses south of the Tchir on 8.12.1941.
The german attack was made by parts of the 11. Panzerdivision, which had just arrived to help the 33.ID on the Tchir-front. They reported 53 destroyed russian tanks on this day ("Sowchose 79").

Is this correct?

Greetings
Thomas

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Yuri
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Postby Yuri » 22 Jul 2006 12:59

cpa95 wrote:Hi Yuri,

i have annother question:
acc. to german sources main parts of the I. Tankkorps suffered heavy losses south of the Tchir on 8.12.1941.
The german attack was made by parts of the 11. Panzerdivision, which had just arrived to help the 33.ID on the Tchir-front. They reported 53 destroyed russian tanks on this day ("Sowchose 79").

Is this correct?

Greetings
Thomas


Hi, Thomas

If your question to answer shortly - that, no, your data mismatch that took place to be 8/12/42 on the river Chir in area sovkhoz 79 (he sovkhoz «Red Star» or otherwise settlement Sysojkin).

I spoke about it{this} on a string already a little
Axis History Forum » Heer, Waffen-SS and Volkssturm » German Kampfgruppen of WW2
viewtopic.php?t=39307&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=60

You had an opportunity prohonour there?
There it is shown, what actions Russian and German sides on the river Chir in area of state farm 79 wished to execute 7/12/42.

Unfortunately, all maps are written in Russian.

One map opens the plan of attack of the left wing 5 Tank Army on Nizhe-Chirskaja and sovchoz 79.
The beginning of attack of infantry 9.00 7/12/42 (time Moscow, the beginning of artillery preparation 8 hour of 20 minutes)
http://www.livinghistory.ru//index.php? ... st&id=3532

The second map is the plan of attack 48 ÒÊ on Russian jumping-off place on the river Chir to the south from Surovikino. The Beginning of attack 6.00 7/12/42 (or 8.00 Moscow times)
http://www.livinghistory.ru//index.php? ... st&id=3514

Whether you had an opportunity to look these maps?
Or for you Russian maps are heavy for understanding?

In a similar way I have made maps where on a documentary basis has shown a course of events in area of sovchoz 79 in December, 1942, including the most detailed have made a map for 8/12/42.

But, in fact, it is a string about 3-rd Romanian Army and I do not know, whether it is possible for this thread to speak in detail about fight 8/12/42 years in area of sovchoz "Red Star'.
Likely, it will be better if to tell about it on string German Kampfgruppen of WW2.
Besides I should have a little time to prepare to you the answer.

/
udachi / Good Luck
Yuri

cpa95
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Postby cpa95 » 22 Jul 2006 13:36

Hi Yuri,

fine maps for the actions of 1st Tankkorps. 8-) Thanks a lot.
I dont speak russian, but meanwhile by reading a lot of maps i have learned some basics about the abbreviations.

So, i find the 11. PD, with Panzerregiment 15.
But i havnt found the russian losses. Do you have any idea?


The map has an important error:
Panzerregiment 15 of the 11. Panzerdivision had not 160 tanks ("at full strength"):
operational tanks
20.11.1942: 70 tanks, mostly P III lang
10.12.1942: 58 tanks, mostly P III lang
20.12.1942: 31 tanks, about 20 of them P III long (5cm)
supply: up to 20.12.1942: 1 P III kurz, 3 P III lang, 1 P IV lang, 1 PzBefehlswagen

qouted from Jentz, Die deutsche Panzertruppe Band II 1943-1945, p. 31. In this source 39 destroyed russian are reported for the 8.12.1942, without a loss.

Greetings
Thomas

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Yuri
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Postby Yuri » 22 Jul 2006 20:15

David C. Clarke wrote:Clearly Romanian First Armored Division formed the core of XLVIII Panzer Corps and should, in the future, be recognized as such.

Further, it should be noted that 1st Armored received its Pz. IIIs and IVs on October 17th. These tanks were first used in battalion exercises on November 16th. One month is an inadequate time for an Armored Division to integrate a vital new weapons system into its ranks. The training of crews and maintenance personell as well as the development of tactics appropriate to the new tanks normally takes a much longer time, but circumstances (the late delivery of the tanks and the early arrival of the Soviets) prevented it.

Best Regards,
David

Under documents which have been withdrawn from bodies of the lost tankmen, follows that crews of these tanks were German.

/
udachi / Good luck

Yuri

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Victor
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Postby Victor » 22 Jul 2006 20:40

Yuri wrote:Hi, Victor

In fights on November, 20th against 1-st Arm. Div. fighting losses 216 TBr and 19 TBr were equal 19 tanks. Now divide it 19 tanks on types I can not, but basically make such probably.
According to a staff 26 Tank Corps the opponent (that is 1 Arm. Div) has lost 8 tanks.
It, by the way, will well be coordinated with those data which were given by the Romanian captain - the commander pioneer company. According to the Romanian captain 1 Arm. Div. Has lost 7 tanks.
Thus, on November, 20th 1-st Pz. Reg. Had no big loss However this day on November, 20th very much big losses had 3-rd motorized regiment.
Actually, this regiment as the organized fighting force has stopped the existence.

Victor, you could not explain a word meaning "overclaimed" in last offer of your last post
"This way we can determine if the Romanian tankers overclaimed and to what extent ".

Excuse, but I still badly understand on àíãëèéñêè and could not understand sense of this word.

udachi / Good Luck

Yuri


Thanks again.

By overclaim I mean that they declared that they destroyed a number of tanks and this number may not be substantiated by Soviet records. In a combat situation, soldiers could exagerrate the casualties they inflicted on their enemy, because of different reasons. This called overclaiming.

The 1st Tank Regiment claimed to have destroyed 24 Soviet tanks that day, although in the more detailed combat reports I have found on 12 claims (of which 8 T-34s). 24 tanks claimed, when compared to the 19 mentioned in the Soviet reports is an overclaim, especially since the 19 Soviet tanks lost probably also include mechanical failures, no?

The Romanian tank losses that day (including many mechanical failures) were greater than 7. They were around 25. I cannot be more specific, as I do not have all the data here with me now. Prior to the engagement with the armor of the 26th Tank Corps, the 1st Armored Division attacked what was identified as a rifle regiment and an artillery battalion near a farm baptised "Winterlager" on the German maps. I do not know the Russian name. During that attack many R-2 tanks were knocked out by Soviet AT gun and AT rifle fire. Due to the Soviet offensive, these tanks had to be abandoned later, even though they were repairable.

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Victor
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Postby Victor » 22 Jul 2006 20:50

Yuri wrote:Under documents which have been withdrawn from bodies of the lost tankmen, follows that crews of these tanks were German.

/
udachi / Good luck

Yuri


It is possible that the Soviet Army intelligence service made a confusion. The crews of the two medium tanks companies were Romanian. Most are known by name.

There was one Pz III that was later assigned to the German 336th Infantry Division and the Romanian crew was replaced by a German one. Maybe this tank was found by Soviet troops and analyzed.

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Yuri
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Postby Yuri » 22 Jul 2006 20:50

Victor wrote:
dragos wrote:
dragos wrote:7th Cavalry Division
Location: Blinovsky - Pronin
Front width: -
Disposition: reserve of 3rd Army
Effective: ?


It had 6,535 men.


CAMD RF
Fund 331, the Inventory 5041. File 24, Sheet 141

Prospecting report No 21 by 21.00 RD the STAFF "AQUARIUM" 19.00 22/11/42
...
In area Staro-Senjutkin documents 7 Cav. Div a/staff the Romanian / and a map with conditions 3 Romanian armies are grasped.

From documents it is established{installed}:
15/11/42 7 Cav. Div. Has arrived to area Parschin, Karasew, Staro-Senjutkin. The staff is located in Pronin. According to the order for No 21 from 15/11/42 division has received a task to occupy defense on a boundary: height 204.4, height with a mark 175.7, northern surburb Blinowskij, 4 km to northeast from height 158.3 and height 193.6.
7 Cav. Div consists from:
15 Cav. Reg /RASCHIOR/;
11 Cav. Reg / RASCHIOR/;
11 Cav. Reg /KOLORAD/;
5 mortar a squadron
61 prospecting groups
company the heavy weapon
5-th Art. Reg. (consists of two batteries).
The division was in an operative reserve. Fighting capacity by estimations of German officers weak.
The fighting structure 7 Cav. Div under documents is defined:
5164 active bayonets,
62 heavy machine guns,
24 mortars,
6 AA guns,
32 AT guns,
236 manual machine guns /approximately/.
....



udachi / Good luck

Yuri


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