Let's Build the Romanian Third and Fourth Armies!!!

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Yuri
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Postby Yuri » 22 Jul 2006 21:35

Victor wrote:
By overclaim I mean that they declared that they destroyed a number of tanks and this number may not be substantiated by Soviet records. In a combat situation, soldiers could exagerrate the casualties they inflicted on their enemy, because of different reasons. This called overclaiming.


Thanks, now to me became clearly. In Russian it is called exaggeration.
By the way, Russian, to be exact Stalin, have found very effective way against the such phenomena.
Russian paid money in that who has has shot down or has destroyed the tank of the opponent.
For example, if the tank was destroyed by one person (manual a pomegranate or in another way) he received 1500 roubles.
If the tank shot down from AT rifles arrows (1-st number) received 1000 roubles, and his assistant (2-st number) 500 roubles.
If the tank was shot down from a gun the commander of a gun and shooting received on 500 roubles, and with other numbers on 200-300 roubles.
For that confirmation, that the tank has been has been shot down, it was necessary to give serious proofs.
For example, to give the data card of the tank or to specify number of the engine, etc.
It was necessary to make the plan of district and to specify, where the tank is shot down.
Thus most put an obstacle for granting doubtful data.
Same concerned and to the brought down planes.
Thus, in Russian reports of figure of the destroyed enemy technics are very realistic.
It is clear, that propagation in newspapers and by radio wrote and spoke other figures.

Yuri
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Postby Yuri » 22 Jul 2006 22:06

Victor wrote:
Yuri wrote:Under documents which have been withdrawn from bodies of the lost tankmen, follows that crews of these tanks were German.



It is possible that the Soviet Army intelligence service made a confusion. The crews of the two medium tanks companies were Romanian. Most are known by name.

There was one Pz III that was later assigned to the German 336th Infantry Division and the Romanian crew was replaced by a German one. Maybe this tank was found by Soviet troops and analyzed.


Documents have been withdrawn 24/11/42, hence, it could not be connected with 336 ID which has started to operate since December, 3rd. Besides, 336 ID operated in area of bottom watercourse Chir (sovkhoz 79). And documents have withdrawn from the lost tankmen in area Bol. Dontschinka.
Probably, that in structure of 1 Arm. Div. There were tanks 22 Pz. Div.?
In total such crews was up to 30.

Yuri
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Postby Yuri » 24 Jul 2006 08:56

Victor wrote:Yuri, a big thanks for your last post. I am very interested in the losses of the 216th and 19th Tank Brigades and 119th Rifle Division, because these units (or parts of them) appear in Romanian reports as the ones facing Romanian 1st Armored Division during its attack West of Shirkovsky on 20 November 1942. It would be interesting to know how many of the losses you posted were caused by mechanical failure and how many by enemy (Romanian) action. This way we can determine if the Romanian tankers overclaimed and to what extent.


Hi, Victor
For today it was possible to find out following documents in which it is possible to see data about losses 119 RD for the period with 19/11/42 on 23/11/42.

1. A sheet with the accepted radiogramms from divisions and brigades 5th Tank Army in which it is informed on losses for 19/11/42
2. Operative reports of a staff 119 Rif. Div. in which there are data on losses of units of this division.
Unfortunately, there data not on all units of a division.
If I shall find out other documents I shall inform.

P. S.
Probably, settlement ZHIRKI on the Romanian and German maps is designated as Zhirkowskij.

All documents earlier were not published anywhere.


CAMD RF f. 331, .i 5041, f.13, s.172
19.11

x 119 RD
- 634 RR:
It is killed - 18, it is wounded - 61, was missing - 12
It is killed horses - 3, it is wounded - 4
It is removed out of operation 1 heavy machine gun and 1 mortar of 82 mm.

- 421 RR:
It is killed - 7 person, it is wounded - 25 person
Horses
It is killed - 23, it is wounded - 6

365 RR:
It is killed - 36 person, it is wounded - 7 person
One heavy machine gun is broken

349 Art.Reg.:
It is killed 5 person, it is wounded - 12 person
Captured and trophies are not present.

x 124 RD
Losses: it is killed - 32 person, it is wounded - 74 person (on the specified data)
The captured 237 Romanian soldier, 7 officers and one major the commander of 1-st battalion 39 Inf. Reg.
Killed and wounded the opponent loss up to 700 person.

x 8 Guards Separate Tank Brigade
It is killed
Average commanding structure (officer) - 2 person,
Younger commanding structure (NCO) - 1 person
It is wounded
Average commanding structure (officer) - 4 persons,
Younger commanding structure (NCO)-5 the person,
Tanks:
- Have burned down:
… … «T-60» - 1
- Were undermined on mines:
… … «T-60» - 1
… … «KV» - 2 it is restored
… … «T-34» - 1 it is restored
- It is lined{is shot down}:
… …. «T-60» - 3 are restored
Trophies also it is destroyed:
Guns of different calibres - 31
Heavy and manual machine guns - 60
It is destroyed DZOT (a long-term earthen shooting point) - 50
Captured officers - 4
Corporals - 7
The soldier - 97

x 47 Guards RD
Losses: killed and wounded men
- 437 RR - 27 person;
- 473 RR - 84 person;
- 510 RR - 144 person;
- 571 AR-12 person;
Special units - 4 person.
It is destroyed the soldier and officers of the opponent - 230 person,
Have taken captured - 17 person.

1 TC data are not present
26 TC data are not present

=============

Operative reports of a staff 119 Rif. Div.

CAMD RF f. 331, .i 5041, f.13, s.176
The report

119 RD on 13.00 23/11/42.
1) Since morning the division attacked the opponent 634 RR from ZHIRKI on height 205.0;
365 RR from southern surburb ZHIRKI on URASOWO and height 182.4;
421 RR …
Attack has ended successfully, as a result of it{him} is taken up to 2000 soldier and officers of the opponent.
About 150 horses, it is a lot of motor vehicles and especially guns (trophies are counted up), it is taken in a captivity two colonels 6 Inf. Div.

2. After fight the division settles down in area VERKHE-CHERNSKIJ, BOL. OSINOWKA; puts into itself the order, fills up stocks, tightens rears.

3. The staff of a division is located ZHIRKI.

4. The commander of a division waits for new instructions{indications}.

Our losses insignificant.

The major (signature)
23/11/42


CAMD RF f. 331, .i 5041, f.13, s.182
In a staff "Mane"
Operative report 158 to 18.00 24/11/42 Staff 119 ZHIRKI


5. Losses 421 RR for the period of action with 18/11 on 23/11 make:
Wounded men and killed:
Average command structure (officer) 55 person,
MNS (NCO) 87 person,
Ordinary structure (men) 383 person.
On other regiments it will be informed in addition.

6. By estimation of we have trophies:
Motor vehicles - 345, tanks - 49, platform soles 108, motorcycles up to 95, automobile motor vehicles faulty 7, horses - 130, … instruments of different calibres up to 47.


The chief of a staff - major Wladychewskij
The chief of an operations section - major Pozdnjakow


/

udachi / Good Luck

Yuri

Yuri
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Postby Yuri » 26 Jul 2006 15:20

cpa95 wrote:Hi Yuri,

fine maps for the actions of 1st Tankkorps. 8-) Thanks a lot.
I dont speak russian, but meanwhile by reading a lot of maps i have learned some basics about the abbreviations.

So, i find the 11. PD, with Panzerregiment 15.
But i havnt found the russian losses. Do you have any idea?


The map has an important error:
Panzerregiment 15 of the 11. Panzerdivision had not 160 tanks ("at full strength"):
operational tanks
20.11.1942: 70 tanks, mostly P III lang
10.12.1942: 58 tanks, mostly P III lang
20.12.1942: 31 tanks, about 20 of them P III long (5cm)
supply: up to 20.12.1942: 1 P III kurz, 3 P III lang, 1 P IV lang, 1 PzBefehlswagen

qouted from Jentz, Die deutsche Panzertruppe Band II 1943-1945, p. 31. In this source 39 destroyed russian are reported for the 8.12.1942, without a loss.

Greetings
Thomas


Hi, Thomas

On map there is no error.
You, probably, have not paid attention that on this map is available two values for tanks 15 Panzerregiment. One number is equal 78. This number is taken according to OKW (look record of conversation of Hitler from 12/12/42). With such number of tanks 11 Pz.Div has arrived 6/12/42 to area of bottom watercourse Chir (that is in area sovkhoz «Red Star» or sovkhoz No 79).

However there are powerful data, that 11 Panzerdivision has received essential updating tanks in this area.

First, the German pilot of self-summer-scout Me-109 Willi Petzel - 1 Kampfgeschwader 1 Gruppe 3 Staffeln. He saw, how tanks unloaded from an echelon between stations Morozovskaja and Oblivskaja. He saw as these tanks have directed on the east. At last, Willi Petzel saw these tanks in area sovkhoz « Red Star » (sovkhoz 79).

Secondly, the German deserter from 11 Panzerdivision. This German soldier from 61-st motorcycle battalion has informed that Panzerregiment 15 has 160 tanks. This deserter specially prepared for transition to Russian. He has collected very detailed information about 11 Pz Div and her neighbours. He has passed to Russian not with empty hands and not on foot, and has arrived with comfort on a motorcycle.

Thirdly, Russian were not blind. Russian had different channels for data acquisition. They had scouts and observers - ground and air. Russian were able to consider.
For example, those data, which Russian have collected about the Romanian armies are very close to real figures.

All the independent channels of receipt of the information listed above from each other give the same figure for 15 Panzerregiment - about 160 tanks.
About that, whence there were German tanks, it is possible to find out from book Paul Carell « Untenechmen Barbarossa » a part IV «STALINGRAD» chapter 6 «SIXTH ARMY In the BOILER».
Paul Carell in detail describes about autocratic actions of the chief of a staff of 3-rd Romanian army of German colonel Wenk. Colonel Wenk without the permission OKX and a Staff of Group of Armies " Don " removed from echelons tanks and directed them on the site of front.

In this book Paul Carell writes how 11 Pz Div and 336 Inf. Div with shine have lead operation on destruction of Russian jumping-off place on the river Chir in area sovkhoz « Red Star » (sovkhoz 79).
The plan of this shining (according to Paul Carell) operations you can saw on my map. This map is made according to which are available in orders No 39 and No 42 from 6/12/42 on 336 Inf. Div. Except for these orders other German documents have been used also, which Russian have grasped at Germans during from December, 7 till December, 12th.
To make comments on data of German sources on results of fight 7/12 and 8/12 in area sovkhoz «Red Star» (sovkhoz No 79) it is very heavy. Given German sources so do not coincide with a reality that you do not know what to tell.

/
udachi / Good luck

Yuri

cpa95
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Postby cpa95 » 26 Jul 2006 21:52

Hi Yuri,

sorry, I am not persuaded of it.

It is unlikely, that a german pilot is able to identifiy, wether tanks were determined for the 11.PD or for annother unit.
KG 1 wasnt in this aerea during Dec. 1942, http://www.ww2.dk/air/kampf/kg1.htm

It is unlikely, that a german Kradschütze (from 61-st motorcycle battalion) was informed that Panzerregiment 15 has XYZ tanks. He might be informed, that a Panzerregiment at full strength has 160 tanks.

The data from Jentz based on the reports of the division, sent via Korps and army to OKH, these official and internal german datas are absolutely realiable.

Then, Paul Carrel (ex Paul Karl Schmidt) is not an author, who can be taken seriously.

The division was supplied in the middle sector (Heeresgruppe Mitte), for 2 (!) months, even not as full strenght, and was moved in a hurry caused to the situation.
So it is irreal, that the the tank strength was doubled in 6 days.

Greetings
Thomas

Yuri
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Postby Yuri » 27 Jul 2006 19:17

Hi, Thomas

Indications of pilot Willi Petzel (Âèëëè Ïåòöåëü) it is valuable and important indications. I have allocated them specially from all others which give a similar picture.
First, Willi Petzel the pilot the scout and, hence, has special skills and experience to distinguish objects on the ground.
Secondly, the purpose of his tasks in that also consisted to conduct supervision over a situation on the ground.
From his words follows, that his air station was in Morosovskaja and he: a/ observed unloading tanks from platforms nearby Obliwskaja; b/ observed movement of these tanks aside Surovikino; c/ observed these tanks in area to the south Surovikino.
Thirdly, the area which he surveyed (along a line of railway Morosovskaja - Oblivskaja - Surovikino - the railway bridge) it and is area where operated XLVIII Pz. K. (and accordingly, 11 Pz. Div.)
Fourthly, he repeatedly flied this route, that is well knew a state of affairs.
Fifthly, data of the pilot of the scout coincide with those data which are received from Russian ground scouts and observers.
From your site
http: // http://www.ww2.dk/air/kampf/kg1.htm
Follows, that I. Gruppe Kampfgeschwader 1 "Hindenburg" operated in Morosowskaja

Kampfgeschwader 1 "Hindenburg"
I. Gruppe:

Bases:

7/42 - 11/42: Dno
11/42-12/42: Witebsk*
12/42 - 2/43: Charkow-Woitschenko

* detachment operated from Morosowskaja
...


Not clearly why you specify here 6 days?

The division was supplied in the middle sector (Heeresgruppe Mitte), for 2 (!) months, even not as full strenght, and was moved in a hurry caused to the situation.
So it is irreal, that the the tank strength was doubled in 6 days.


The period from 20.11.42 till it not 6 days, the same 16 days.

Then, Paul Carrel (ex Paul Karl Schmidt) is not an author, who can be taken seriously.


You are absolutely right to such authors (and who is not important they on a nationality - the German, Russian or the Englishman) cannot be trust.
I have specified this author only because he probably specifies a key to understanding of a situation which is drawn with primary sources available me.

Whether is in your sources of data on reception 11 Pz Div updatings by tanks during this period, what this division operated in area Surovikino?



I have made small calculation. And here, that is interesting.
For four days of fights with 7/12/42 on 10/12/42 at all those brigades 41 tank has failed. Thus, at least, 2 tanks have failed for technical reasons. One tank T34 has fallen down in a ravine and could not get out independently. At second tank T34 has jammed a gun. Thus, if to assume, that all other tanks has embroidered out of operation from fire of the opponent we shall receive 39 tanks. Thus from messages it is visible, that, at least, two tanks have received damages as a result of a strike of German aircraft. How many from this 39 tanks for the same four days have been restored and has become operational, I did not consider.

About that there were 8/12/42 years in area sovchoz «Red Star» (sovchoz 79) I prepare for the information. I try, that the information was short.

/
Yuri

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Victor
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Postby Victor » 07 Aug 2006 15:07

Yuri wrote:Thus, on November, 20th 1-st Pz. Reg. Had no big loss However this day on November, 20th very much big losses had 3-rd motorized regiment.
Actually, this regiment as the organized fighting force has stopped the existence.


In reference to this older post, I found the losses for the 3rd Motorized Vanatori Regiment for 20 November 1942:

Killed: 38 (3 officers, 35 soldiers)
Wounded: 59 (2 officers, 1 NCOs, 56 soldiers)
Missing: 36 (1 officer, 1 NCO, 34 soldiers)
Sick: 9 (1 officer, 4 NCOs, 4 soldiers)
Total: 142

The material losses were significant: 420 rifles, 28 LMGs, 7 HMGs, 22 pistols, 35 SMGs, 8 AT guns, 6 60 mm mortars, 2 81.4 mm mortars and 5 120 mm mortars.

However, the regiment continued to exist and fight.

Yuri
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Postby Yuri » 10 Aug 2006 19:19

Victor wrote:In reference to this older post, I found the losses for the 3rd Motorized Vanatori Regiment for 20 November 1942:

Killed: 38 (3 officers, 35 soldiers)
Wounded: 59 (2 officers, 1 NCOs, 56 soldiers)
Missing: 36 (1 officer, 1 NCO, 34 soldiers)
Sick: 9 (1 officer, 4 NCOs, 4 soldiers)
Total: 142

The material losses were significant: 420 rifles, 28 LMGs, 7 HMGs, 22 pistols, 35 SMGs, 8 AT guns, 6 60 mm mortars, 2 81.4 mm mortars and 5 120 mm mortars.

However, the regiment continued to exist and fight.


It is very interesting information.
From Russian the situation is looked so.
In the morning on November, 20th 1 Arm. Div. has undertaken attack to the left flank of 5-th tank army. Romanians attacked from Zhirki in a direction Peschanyj.
In this attack participated 3 Mot. Reg. Attack has failed: 3 Mot. Reg. had big losses, regiment has been exterminated.

Within all next days struggle (that is, 21, on November, 22nd and 23) from 1 Arm. Div. actions 1 Tank Reg, 4 Mot. Reg and other units of this division are marked. However, actions 3 Mot. Reg. it is not fixed any more.
In 15.00 20/11/42 19 TBr and 14 MRBr from structure 26 Òank Corps grasp Perelazowskij where there are rears 1 Arm. Div.
It is necessary to tell, that actions 3 Mot. Reg it is not fixed neither grasped captured, nor documents killed.

By the end of day on November, 22nd three boilers are formed:
- In area Raspopinskaja: units 5, 13 and 6 Inf Div (general Trojan Stanesku commanded)
- In area Golovsky: units 5, 15 and 6 Inf Div (commanded the commander 5 Inf Div general Mazarini, here there was a commander 6 Inf Div general Laskar)
- In area Verhne-Tsaritsynsky, Zhirki, Osinovskij: units 1 Arm. Div., 15 and 5 Inf Div (commanded the commander of 15-th Inf Div).

In second half of day on November, 22nd for negotiations about delivery in a captivity of a grouping in Golowskij (which general Mazarini has headed) from Red Army of profit two truce envoys (parlamenters). It were:
- the assistant to the commander to 396-th separate prospecting company of 333-rd rifle division the senior lieutenant Matveev Alexander Ivanovich
- shooting (arrows) same company private soldier Usov Ilya Dmitrievich.
Russian truce envoys have transferred generals Mazarini and Laskar the letter of command of 21-st Army with the offer on delivery of the Romanian armies in a captivity.
The Romanian military leaders have refused.
However, - according to truce envoys, - in a voice of the Romanian military leaders there was no hardness.

897 Art. Reg. 333 Rif. Div has opened fire on the Romanian positions, but attacks of infantry it was not required - Romanians of fight have not accepted and have started to surrender in a captivity.
Have surrendered in a captivity and both of the Romanian general - Mazarini and Laskar.

The report of a staff 333 Rifle Division

CAMD RF
f 331, i 5041, f 10, s 232

21/11/42 1120 RR continued to conduct fights in area height 193.7, has has taken possession her and slowly moved ahead. Before regiment units 6 Inf. Div defended.
To 15.00 21/11/42 1118 RR has left to east surburb Verhne-Cherensky where has collided with the rests 15 Inf Div, passed to defense. The opponent had the purpose - to cover the parts departing on the south.
The commander 1118 RR from a course has developed unwrapped regiment and, being supported of artillery of a straight line directly from fighting orders íàâîäêîé, after two-hour fight has has taken possession Verchne-Cherenskij.
Big trophies - 13 tanks, more than 500 horses, up to 300 vehicles with various property have been taken. It is grasped 200 captured
To 23.00 21/11/42 1116 RR has left on a boundary Rybkin - Warlamovskij and has occupied defense by front on the north.
---
22/11/42 1120 Rif Reg, finally having broken resistance of the opponent, the second battalion has left on the western slopes âûñîòû197.4, and two other battalions has begun approach in direction Izbuschinskij, Raspopinskaja.
There to Raspopinskaja at 15.00 has approached 1/1116 Rif Reg. Around Raspopinskaja the second ring of an environment has started to arise.
Since morning 22/11/42 1118 RR has led approach on Golowskij. Being supported of tanks, regiment by 17.00 has has taken possession Golowskij.
1116 RR occupied with two battalions a former defensive boundary.
Thus, the opponent has appeared shattered, lost touch and management and besides strongly demoralized.
The opponent has started to surrender in a captivity the whole divisions.
Below cited data show losses of the opponent, number captured and trophies the divisions grasped by units division

[Captured / killed]

1. Generals … … … … … … 2 /-
2. A staff-officers … … ….. 11 /-
3. Seniors-officers … … ….. 140 / 53
4. Corporals … … … .654 / 223
5. The soldier … … … … … … … .7 393 / 1960
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
TOTAL: … … … 8 201 / 2226

The NOTE: captured the Romanian generals have appeared.
1. The commander 5 ID - general Lasker*
2. The commander 6 ID - general Mazarini*

6. It is grasped horses:
a/. Riding - 55
b/. Artillery - 67
c/. For a transport - 911

7. The Equipment:
a/. Rifles - 7451
b/. Machine guns lungs - 971
d/. Heavy machine guns - 155
e/. Antiaircraft machine guns - 10
f/. Guns of different calibres - 188
g/. Tanks and platform soles - 26
h/. Armoured cars - 1
i/. Automobile - 24
j/. Lorries - 177
k/. Special cars and tractors - 42
l/. Motorcycles - 10
m/. Planes - 1


* - errors of the document: general Laskar the commander 6 Inf Div, and general Mazarini the commander 5 Inf Div.

In spite of the fact that the grouping in Golowskij capitulated, in Raspopinskaja Romanians continued to show resistance.
In second half of day on November, 23rd the offer on capitulation has been directed to the commander of this grouping to general Trojan Stanesku.
In the beginning general Stanesku has refused.
However he is closer to the end of day on November, 23rd has directed to Russian of truce envoys.
Truce envoys have come to a staff of 291-st Rifle Regiment 63-rd Rifle Division.
The parties have coordinated signals about cease-fire - white and green rockets from the Romanian, green and red from Russian.

At 23 o'clock 30 mines on November, 23rd Romanians have submitted the signals, on what Russian have answered with the signals. Since this moment fights in area Raspopinskaja have stopped.
Brigade general Trojan Stonesku and the Romanian officers of his staff have surrendered in a captivity 2 hours of 30 minutes on November, 24th, 1942.

The part of forces of the Romanian grouping surrounded in area Zhirki, has managed to be pulled out from a ring on a southwest and to grasp settlements:Bol. Donshchinka, Mal. Donshchinka and Medvezhij

From the south (from Petrovka) to the aid of Romanians have come a tank battalion 204 Pz. Reg. (50 tanks) and 129 GR 22 Pz. Div.
However here they again have been taken in a ring by Russian armies.
At night with 23 on 24 Germans and the Romanian have tried to be pulled out from a ring in area Bol. Donshchinka for Chir (in area Chernyshevskaja).

For the coordination of actions in the afternoon on November, 23rd in area of a boiler has landed Romanian plane which has transmitted the message from a staff of 3-rd army. However on a return way this plane has been has been shot down, and the Romanian pilot to take in a captivity.

At night with 23 for November, 24th in Bol. Donshchinka was constructed a column of armies. However, this attempt break was to stop sudden attack 303 Tank Battalion 8 Guard Separate TBr.

CAMD RF
f 331, i 5041, f 29, s 377
Report No 13
Staff of a brigade 8 GSTBr
24/11/42 23.00
Bol. Donshchinka

I inform, that in fights on the night of 24/11/42 for Bol. Donshchinka the tank battalion in structure of 3 tanks " KV ", 2 tanks " T-34 " under command of the commander 303 TB guards of senior lieutenant Belous in 22.30 23/11/42 has rushed in to in Bol. Donshchinka from northwest, having found parts German-Romanian armies unawares. The built column of motor vehicles in structure of 30 pieces has been completely destroyed.
It is destroyed: up to 1800 soldier and officers of the opponent; 10 guns, 75 horses.
It is grasped: up to 250 motor vehicles, 200 horses, 750 captured, among them one colonel.
Losses - are not present.
Till the morning tanks have blocked all the roads leading from Bol. Donshchinka, and with the beginning of approach of our units have supported their impact from rear.

The chief of a staff 8 GSTBr
guards the major /Mezhitcan/


Owing to this attack the most part 22-nd Pz. Div and a small part 15 Inf Div have receded in a balka (beam) Medwezh’ja (near settlement Medwezhij).
On the other hand, the most part the Romanian led by the general (presumably the commander 15 Inf Div) and a small part 22 Pz Div have receded on the east where they have got under impact 216 TBr.
In it to fight by a shot from the tank of the commander of a brigade the Romanian general has been killed, îïîçíàòü which it was not possible. Documents of this general have been sent in a staff 5 Tank Army.

CAMD RF
f 331, i 5041, f 29, s 174
to Commander 5 TA
Fighting report No 5
Staff of a brigade 216 TBr
Bol. Donshchinka
10.30 25/11/42

1. In 7.00 25/11/42 in execution of Your order 580 Tank Battalion has occupied Mal. Donshchinka. It is killed 150 soldier and officers. The opponent recedes on a southeast and the east. Forces are established. Throws a plenty of equipment, an ammunition and an equipment.
580 Tank Battalion has destroyed one German tank T-3.
The peace population speaks, that the opponent has tanks, quantity 60-70, but fuel is not present, many tanks tow because of absence of fuel. Big trophies are counted up.
Losses: 1 person is wounded.

2. Yesterday the tank of the commander of a brigade has killed in fight of one general. To distinguish it was not possible. I direct to you the documents grasped at him.

3. In 10.15 25/11/42 I carry out your order transmitted through the commander 346 RD - to move on Perelazowskij.

4. Consider expedient to direct unit what it is possible, for prosecution of the opponent departing from Mal. Donshchinka.

5. In 10.10 25/11/42 in TEP brigades machine-gun fire and fire from rifles brings down German diving bomber No C-9KK. Crew: two persons has burned down, the others did not manage to be found out.

The commander 216 TBr
The lieutenant colonel / Kozhanov/


Those Germans and Romanians who was in a balka (beam) Medwezh'ja, have tried to leave a boiler at night with 24 for November, 25th. The route of movement was those: from Medwezhij on a balka (beam) Medwezh'ja and balka (beam) Berezjanka on the south up to the big road near Petrovka.

This attempt of break has appeared successful. On big road Petrovka - Chernyshevskaja has escaped up to 35 tanks, about 100 motor vehicles and a plenty of German and Romanian motorcyclists (all about 1500 person).
Having left on road, it is group has turned on the West and has crossed river Chir on the bridge near Chernyshevskaja. Here Germans and the Romanian have straight off rushed into in Chernyshevskaja and have beaten out therefrom 437-th rifle regiment 47-th Guards rifle divisions.

Note: 437-th rifle regiment has grasped Chernyshevskaja still in 15.00 22/11/42.

CAMD RF
f 331, i 5041, f 29, s 174
Radiogramm No 34
To whom: the Aquarium * It is accepted: 15.27 25/11
From radio station: the Bolt ** (47 GRD)
Has accepted: Devochkin
It is submitted: 25/11 14.03

to Sergeev ***, on northeast surburb Chernyshevskaja have rushed into up to 35 tanks and a big column of motor-infantry and motorcyclists I conduct fight on destruction of this group of the opponent.
dubov **** = ol'chov ***** =

Has accepted Signature 15.35
The chief of a staff 47 GRD
It is informed
NSCHA [[/i]an abbreviation - the chief of a staff of army - Yuri[/i]]
25/11/42 14.30


* - the Aquarium - signal radio station of a staff 5 Tank Army
** - the Bolt - signal radio station of a staff of 47-th Guards Rifle Division
*** - Sergeev – a conditional surname in radiogramms for the commander of 5-th Tank Army general-lieutenant Romanenko
**** - Dubov - a conditional surname in radiogramms for the commander of 47-th Guards Rifle Division guards general-major Fokanov
***** - Ol’chov - a conditional surname in radiogramms for the chief of a staff of 47-th Guards Rifle Division guards of colonel Golosko


/
Accept my apologies for translation quality
Yuri

Yuri
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Postby Yuri » 10 Aug 2006 20:08

Yuri wrote:
CAMD RF
f 331, i 5041, f 29, s 174
Radiogramm No 34
To whom: the Aquarium * It is accepted: 15.27 25/11
From radio station: the Bolt ** (47 GRD)
Has accepted: Devochkin
It is submitted: 25/11 14.03

to Sergeev ***, on northeast surburb Chernyshevskaja have rushed into up to 35 tanks and a big column of motor-infantry and motorcyclists I conduct fight on destruction of this group of the opponent.
dubov **** = ol'chov ***** =

Has accepted Signature 15.35
The chief of a staff 47 GRD
It is informed
NSCHA
25/11/42 14.30


Here I have admitted a gross blunder - have not truly specified the information on a place of storage of the document.
Correctly:
CAMD RF
f. 331, i. 5041, f. 24 s. 285

All documents earlier were not published anywhere.

/
Sorry
Yuri

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Victor
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Postby Victor » 11 Aug 2006 09:14

The general killed at Bol. Donshchinka was brigadier general Ioan Sion, commander of the 15th Infantry Division.

Brig. gen. Ioan Sion was named commander of the column that attempted to break out of the encirclement, while maj. gen. Mihail Lascar stayed behind to cover the retreat. The 30,000 men, spread along 30 km, started to march at 2100 hours on 22 November. Taking advantage of the darkness, the column manager to sneak through the Soviet lines, arriving in Tsaritsa Valley, where it was attacked by tanks and completely disorganized. From the following slaughter, general Sion managed to escape with 3,626 men, 1,045 horses, 18 cars and two artillery pieces and arrived at Bol. Donchinskaya in the morning of 23 November, meeting up with the remains of the German 22nd Panzer Division.

Immediately the soldiers belonging to many different units were organized in a defensive formation, which could at least put up a minimal resistance. The main support were the few tanks of the German 22nd Armored Division. However, these retreated during the night to a position 3 km from the village, which was under artillery bombardment. On 24 November, at 0300 hours, two Soviet tanks entered the village firing. Brig. gen. Sion and maj. Busuioceanu were permanently on the move, cheering up the men, handing out grenades, passing just 20 m from the tanks at one moment. Three times he asked for assistance from the 22nd Panzer Division, but he didn't receive anything. At 0700 hours more tanks started to appear near the village. He tried to launch a counterattack, but no one followed him. At 1000 hours the 303rd Tank Battalion/8th Guards Separate Tank Brigade attacked in force. The munitions were almost over and there were no AT guns available. The men panicked and started to run in disorder, through the Soviet artillery and machine-gun fire. He tried in vain to stop them. There was another massacre. Brig. gen. Ioan Sion remained behind in the village with maj. Busuioceanu, cpt. Severin, 2nd lt. Galben and his driver sold. Dascalescu. They decided to retreat to the positions of the 22nd Panzer Division, by marching through a small valley. The road was blocked by two infantry platoons supported by a heavy tank. They tried to escape by changing direction, but general Sion was hit and fell down.

Orlov
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Long Live Romanian Sodiers!

Postby Orlov » 11 Aug 2006 11:52

I congratulated very intersting discuss about Romanian-Russian fightinig.
For some break this serious information some, german propaganda photos from Eastern Front.

Bestreg for all history lovers!
Orlov
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Yuri
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Postby Yuri » 11 Aug 2006 19:19

Victor wrote:Brig. gen. Ioan Sion was named commander of the column that attempted to break out of the encirclement, while maj. gen. Mihail Lascar stayed behind to cover the retreat. The 30,000 men, spread along 30 km, started to march at 2100 hours on 22 November.

You can specify a concrete place where this gen. Ioan Sion's column was formed?

Victor wrote:Three times he asked for assistance from the 22nd Panzer Division, but he didn't receive anything.


Whether you can describe briefly actions 22 Pz Div. (according to documents available you and other sources) in the form of: time, a place and character of actions of units of this division (including with what Russian opponent during this moment unit struggled).

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Victor
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Postby Victor » 15 Sep 2006 14:26

It's hard to say exactly where it was formed. Sion formed an advance guard made up of the AT battalion, two artillery batteries and a mounted reconnaissance platoon and the bulk of the 15th Division came behind them, stretching for about 12 km and if we include the remains of the troops fleeing south after the fell of Golovsky, it can be estimated as 30 km long.

The spearhead managed to cross the Tsaritsa River and amushed six Soviet trucks and the troops they were carrying. The ice on the River broke when the bulk of the column tried to cross and it was attacked and scattered by the 119th Rifle Division and tanks.

I have something on the 22nd Panzer Division, but it's in German and it will take a while for me to translate.

Michi
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Postby Michi » 22 Oct 2006 16:17

Hello I'm looking for any additional informations about the Luftwaffen-Flak units in the area of Stalingrad, Chir River, Don Bend & Don River, Kalmyck-Steppe & Caucasus.
Additional informations for the Abteilungen would be the position of the HQ; and the names of the CO's of the different Abteilungen.

-> means attached to FlakDiv
---> means attached to Stb./FlakRgt
--> means „independent“ (Stb./FlakRgt not attached to FlakDiv; FlakAbt not attached to Stb./FlakRgt)

Luftwaffe-Flak units
in the area of

Stalingrad
Chir River
Don Bend & Don River
Kalmyck Steppe
Caucasus




Stalingrad

9. FlakDiv
-> Stb./FlakRgt 37 (mot.)
---> I./FlakRgt 8 (gem. mot.)
---> I./FlakRgt 49 (gem. mot.)
---> III./FlaArtSch II
---> le FlakAbt 851 (mot.)
---> le FlakAbt 99 (mot.) Stb./FlakRgt 37 (mot.) doesn't mention it
-> Stb./FlakRgt 91 (mot.)
---> I./FlakRgt 9 (gem. mot.)
---> I./FlakRgt 241 (gem. mot.)
---> 2./le FlakAbt 77 (mot.)
-> Stb./FlakRgt 104 (mot.)
---> I./FlakRgt 12 (gem. mot.)
---> I./FlakRgt 37 (gem. mot.)
---> le FlakAbt 91 (mot.)
---> le FlakAbt 775 (v) le FlakAbt 775 (v) says with Stb./FlakRgt 104 (mot.); Stb./FlakRgt 104 (mot.) doesn't mention it

--> FschFlakAbt/7. FlDiv many sources say so; but no definitive hint
Additional informations:
The 4./FschFlaMGBtl/FlDiv 7 was in the pocket of Stalingrad.
It had 5 officers and 230 men.
It was equipped with 20mm FlaMG and 5cm Pak.
CO was Hauptmann Maurer.



Chir River

-> Stb./FlakRgt 99 (mot.) at Oblivskaja & Ukraine
---> gem FlakAbt 236 (v) at Oblivskaja & Saporoshje
---> le FlakAbt 723 (v) at Oblivskaja & Forschstadt & Borodinovv
---> le FlakAbt 774 (v)/Stb./FlakRgt 91 at Oblivskaja & Saporoshje

--> gem FlakAbt 254 (v) at Morosovskaja & Kantemirovka

--> gem FlakAbt 125 (v) at Tazinskaja
--> II./FlakLehrRgt (le. mot.) at Tazinskaja & Kotelnikovo & Charkov-Rogan

--> F-FAS 40 (Ost) at Tazinskaja & Morosovskaja & Oblivskaja

--> 4./FlakAbt ?? with Gruppe Stahel
--> Stb./ & 3./FlakAbt 100 with Restgruppe Staf Schuldt/Gruppe Obst Baer(Arko 110)
--> Führer FlakAbt with Restgruppe Staf Schuldt/Gruppe Obst Baer (Arko 110)


Don-Bend & Don-River

10. FlakDiv
-> Stb./FlakRgt 124 (mot.) is in my sources Stb./FlakRgt 124 (o); fixed at Dortmund
---> I./FlakRgt 19 (gem. mot.) Don-Bend
-> Stb./FlakRgt 153 (mot.)
---> II./FlakRgt 43 (gem. mot.)
---> gem FlakAbt 124 not mentioned in my sources
---> le FlakAbt 84 (mot.) at Millerovo

--> I./FlakRgt 38 (gem. mot.) Don area

--> FlakAbt 100 (ohne 3./ & 4./) with 304. ID

--> 6./FlakRgt 43 with Kampfgruppe Staf Schuldt

--> 4./FlakAbt 100 with Kampfgruppe Staf Schuldt


Kalmyck Steppe & Caucasus

15. FlakDiv
-> Stb./FlakRgt 4 (mot.)
---> II./FlakRgt 24 (gem. mot.)
---> I./FlakRgt 61 (gem. mot.)
---> le FlakAbt 77 (mot.) (except 2./le FlakAbt 77 (mot.))
-> Stb./FlakRgt 7 (mot.)
---> I./FlakRgt 25 (gem. mot.)
---> I./FlakRgt 61 (gem. mot.) later with Stb./FlakRgt 4 (mot.)
---> II./FlakRgt 241 (gem. mot.)

--> II./FlakRgt 38 (gem. mot.) questionable if in the Caucasus


17. FlakDiv
-> Stb./FlakRgt 4 (mot.) only mentioned at I./FlakRgt 7
---> I./FlakRgt 7 (gem. mot.)
-> Stb./FlakRgt 12 (mot.)
---> I./FlakRgt 49
---> II./FlakAbt 241
---> gem FlakAbt 375
---> le FlakAbt 84
-> Stb./FlakRgt 42 (mot.)
---> I./FlakRgt 4 (gem. mot.)
-> Stb./FlakRgt 48 (mot.) only mention at Stb./Rgt

--> Stb./FlakRgt 17 (mot.) at Dnjepropetrowsk & Southern Russia

--> Stb./FlakRgt 134 (mot.) at Southern Russia & Spass-Demensk

--> I./FlakRgt 5 (gem. mot.) at Stalino & Southern Russia & Rostov

(--> FlakAbt/LwFDiv 5 LwFDiv 5)
--> FlakAbt/LwFDiv 7 LwFDiv 7
--> FlakAbt/LwFDiv 8 LwFDiv 8
--> FlakAbt/LwFDiv 15 LwFDiv 15


Some questions:
a.) Fallschirm-Flak-Abteilung/7. Flieger-Division: any infos about this unit??
b.) Flak-Abteilung 100: any infos about this unit??
c.) FührerFlakAbt: was this Luftwaffe or was this Heer??
d.) 10. Flak-Division: which Stb./FlakRgt were attached to this Division?? (only 1??)
e.) 17. Flak-Division: which Stb./FlakRgt were attached to this Division?? (all 4??)


Sources:
Michael Holm's homepage about the Luftwaffe
Tessin, all volumes
Die deutschen Divisionen 1939 - 1945, Vol. 1 - 4
BUT sources are scarcy and very contradicting!!


MfG Michi
Last edited by Michi on 22 Oct 2006 16:24, edited 1 time in total.

Michi
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Postby Michi » 22 Oct 2006 16:22

Hello I'm looking for any additional informations about the Heeres-Flak units in the area of Stalingrad, Chir River, Don Bend & Don River, Kalmyck-Steppe & Caucasus.
Additional informations for the Abteilungen would be the position of the HQ; and the names of the CO's of the different Abteilungen.

Heeres-Flak & SS-Flak units
in the area of

Stalingrad
Chir River
Don Bend & Don River
Kalmyck Steppe
Caucasus



Pocket of Stalingrad

3./FlaMGBtl 48 Stalingrad
6./FlaMGBtl 55 Stalingrad
2./ & 4./FlaMGBtl 66 Stalingrad

FlaBtl 602 Stalingrad
FlaBtl 608 Stalingrad
FlaBtl 614 Stalingrad

HFlakAbt 274 16. PzDiv
HFlakAbt 276 14. PzDiv
HFlakAbt 282 60. InfDiv (mot.)
HFlakAbt 283 24. PzDiv
HFlakAbt 312 3. InfDiv (mot.)
HFlakAbt 313 29. InfDiv (mot.)


Chir River

HFlakAbt 289 22. PzDiv


Don-Bend & Don-River

HFlakAbt 277 11.PzDiv
HFlakAbt 296 7. PzDiv
FührerFlakAbt (was this Heer or Luftwaffe??)

Kalmyck Steppe & Caucasus

FlaBtl 610 South Russia
FlaBtl 616 South Russia
FlaBtl 619 South Russia

HFlakAbt 278 23. PzDiv
HFlakAbt 281 16. InfDiv (mot.)
HFlakAbt 298 6. PzDiv
HFlakAbt 297 17. PzDiv

HFlakAbt 271 13. PzDiv
HFlakAbt 300 15. FlakDiv
HFlakAbt 314 3. PzDiv

HFlakAbt 275 Caucasus
HFlakAbt 279 Caucasus

SS-FlakAbt 5 5. SS-Frw-PzGrenDiv



Any Heeres-Flak units missing??


Sources:
Michael Holm's homepage about the Luftwaffe
Tessin, all volumes
Die deutschen Divisionen 1939 - 1945, Vol. 1 - 4
BUT sources are scarcy and very contradicting!!

Additional informations
jmark wrote:Hi Michi,

Here's some info that might be helpful to you.

3./Fla 48 = remained independent – marched with 6. Armee to Stalingrad and was destroyed there.
6./Fla 55 = became 10.(Fla)/Pz.Gr.Rgt.26 in summer 1942 – with 24.Pz.Div. at Voronesh, battle near Kalach, into Stalingrad early September, destroyed January 1943. Kp.Fhr. Oblt. Johannes Wolter
2./Fla 66 = became 12.(Fla)/Pz.Gr.Rgt.103 in summer 1942 – with 14.Pz.Div. over the lower Don toward Kuban near Armavir, Ordzkhonikidze, then to Stalingrad where it was desteoyed. Kp.Fhr. Oblt Eberhard Wagemann
4./Fla 66 = became 3.(Fla)/Pz.Jäg.Abt.13 in summer 1942 = 4./Heeres-Flak-Art.-Abt.271 – with 13.Pz.Div. Rostov, Maikop, Mozdok, Alagir, became Heeres-Flak in September 1942.

Fla-Btl.602 – Kdr. Hptm. Bohnert
Fla-Btl.610 – Kdr. Obstlt. Boje
Fla-Btl.614 – Kdr. Major Ritter
Fla-Btl.616 – Kdr. Major Lukas

Heeres-Flak-Abt.274 (IV./Pz.Art.Rgt.16 – 16. PzDiv.) – Kdr. Obstlt. Hett (until June 1942), then Major Lang (June 1942 to Jan.1943)
Heeres-Flak-Abt.276 (IV./Pz.Art.Rgt.4 – 14. PzDiv.) – Hptm. Gramatzki
Heeres-Flak-Abt.282 (IV./Art.Rgt.160 – 60. InfDiv (mot.)) – Kdr. ?
Heeres-Flak-Abt.283 (IV./Pz.Art.Rgt.89 – 24. PzDiv.) – Kdr. Obstlt. Fritz von Melchers
Heeres-Flak-Abt.312 (IV./Art.Rgt.3 – 3. InfDiv (mot.)) – Kdr. Major Fursten (killed July 1942), then Hptm. Klingohr (killed at Stalingrad)
Heeres-Flak-Abt.313 (IV./Art.Rgt.29– 29. InfDiv (mot.)) – Kdr. ?

Some more about Fla-Btl.602:
Fla-Btl.602 in Stalingrad
Present in Stalingrad:
Staff = 38 men, 1.Ko. = 144 men, 2.Ko. = 118 men, 3.Ko. = 139 men, 4.Ko. = 127 men, total = 566 men
Killed in Stalingrad:
Staff = 0 men, 1.Ko. = 15 men, 2.Ko. = 8 men, 3.Ko. = 11 men, 4.Ko. = 9 men, total = 43 men
Wounded and flown out of the Kessel:
Staff = 3 men, 1.Ko. = 10 men, 2.Ko. = 6 men, 3.Ko. = 8 men, 4.Ko. = 8 men, total = 35 men
Wounded but remained in the Kessel:
Staff = 0 men, 1.Ko. = 27 men, 2.Ko. = 7 men, 3.Ko. = 5 men, 4.Ko. = 2 men, total = 41 men
Remained in Kessel, fate unknown:
Staff = 35 men, 1.Ko. = 92 men, 2.Ko. = 97 men, 3.Ko. = 115 men, 4.Ko. = 108 men, total = 447 men
Among those remaining in the Kessel were: Hptm. Bohnert, Oblt. Krebs, Oblt. Meyer, Lt. Binder, Lt. Klein, Lt. Gliese, Lt. Burghard, Lt. Enke, Lt. Ritz, Lt. Friedrich.

My sources for the above info are:
"Fla nach vorn, 2. Band" by Hermann Freter (absolutely excellent book!)
"Flak – Die Geschichte der deutschen Flakartillerie und der Einsatz der Luftwaffenhelfer" by Horst-Adelbert Koch (another great book)
My own research into 6. Armee's documents

Hope this helps!
Jason



MfG Michi


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