Let's Build the Romanian Third and Fourth Armies!!!

Victor · #46

dragos wrote:More on the 1st Armoured Division

[...]

I could find the following commanders:
[...]
Reconnaissance Group - Locotenent Constantin Husãrescu

Actually lt. Husarescu was killed in August 1941 at Mikhailovka, near Odessa.

Victor · #47

Michi wrote:Part 3: The Strength of the 3rd Romanian Army and the 4th Romanian Army:

19th November 1942:

Armata 3
Rezervã...............................Officers...........NCOs...........Men
Divizia 15 Infanterie.................455...............387 .........13707
Divizia 7 Cavalerie....................241...............203............6205
Corp 1 Armatã
ENI..........................................155...............136.............3136
Divizia 7 Infanterie...................440...............305...........13485
Divizia 11 Infanterie.................502...............371...........14950
Corp 2 Armatã
ENI...........................................207................180...........4028
Divizia 9 Infanterie....................472................400.........13349
Divizia 14 Infanterie..................437................376.........11775
Corp 5 Armatã
ENI...........................................268................254...........5273
Divizia 5 Infanterie....................474................427.........13624
Divizia 6 Infanterie....................442................434 ........13296
Corp 4 Armatã
ENI...........................................173................172...........3883
Divizia 13 Infanterie..................400................322.........10635
Divizia 1 Cavalerie......................221...............241...........6895

Divizia 1 Blindatã is missing.

Armata 4
Rezervã
Divizia 20 Infanterie.................502................371.........14950
Corp 6 Armatã
ENI..........................................213................172...........4026
Divizia 18 Infanterie.................429................319.........13665
Divizia 2 Infanterie...................289................295...........9144
Divizia 1 Infanterie...................330................321...........8720
Corp 7 Armatã
ENI..........................................171................163...........3666
Divizia 4 Infanterie...................330................341...........9809
Divizia 5 Cavalerie....................178................179...........5154
Divizia 8 Cavalerie....................185................241...........5618
Corp Cavalerie Popescu (formed on 10/12/1942)
with Divizia 5 Cavalerie & Divizia 8 Cavalerie

MfG Michi

Great! What's the source?

For those who do not know ENI means Elemente neindivizionate, that is corps elements unassigned to a division, like the motorized heavy artillery regiments or battalions.

Michi · #48

Part 4: The Effectiveness of the 3rd Romanian Army and the 4th Romanian Army:

19th November 1942:

Armata 3
Rezervă.....................Total eff....First-Line eff....Artillery....MGs...Howitzers...A/T Guns...Tanks
Divizia 15 Infanterie........74,7.............44,6..................50..........67..........62..........25/12/6..........0
Divizia 7 Cavalerie...........82,4.............45,3................100........100........100..........1/30/0............4
Divizia 1 Blindată.............100..............70...................100........100........100..........111/72/31....130
Corp 1 Armată..............78,3.............44,3.................86..........84.........100..........80/48/12........0
Corp 2 Armată..............73,8.............40,7................100.........94.........99,5.........80/48/12........4
Corp 5 Armată..............77,4.............43,6................100.........94.........100..........19/108/12......0
Corp 4 Armată..............68,7.............37...................100.........97,2......99,6.........29/85/6..........4

Armata 4
Corp 6 Armată..............61,7.............34..................96,3.........86,6......67............93/126/28......0
Corp 7 Armată..............70,4.............35,6...............100..........89,3......70............12/38/0.........12
Corp Cavalerie Popescu (formed on 10/12/1942)
no datas given.

Everything in %.
except A/T Guns (37mm/47mm/75mm) & Tanks in pieces.

Sources for Part 3 & Part 4:
W. Tieke & H. Scheibert both mentions parts of it.
„Românii la Stalingrad“, Ed. Militară, Bucureşti 1992.
„Storia militară a poporului Român“, vol.VI, Ed. Militară, Bucureşti 1989.
http://www.geocities.com/dangrecu/St191142e.html
http://www.geocities.com/dangrecu/St191142.html

MfG Michi

Michi · #49

@Victor

For those who do not know ENI means Elemente neindivizionate, that is corps elements unassigned to a division, like the motorized heavy artillery regiments or battalions.

Were there any units directly attached to the Armies??
(As ENI are the units directly attached to the Corps.)

MfG Michi

Michi · #50

Part 5: The German Liaison Officers with the 3rd Romanian Army and the 4th Romanian Army:

19th November 1942:

Armata 3:
Kommandierender General des deutschen Verbindungsstabes bei der 3. rumänischen Armee:
Det. 1 - Kdt: Oberst Volkmar Schöne

Rezervă:
Divizia 7 Cavalerie.........Det. 123 - Lt. von Engelhardt
Divizia 15 Infanterie......Det. 115 - Maj. Kruger
Divizia 1 Blindată...........Det. 130 - Maj. Klingsporn

Corp 1 Armată:...............Det. 11 - ObstLt. Preissler

Divizia 7 Infanterie........Det. 108 - Hptm. Utzinger
Divizia 11 Infanterie......Det. 112 - Hptm. Endres

Corp 2 Armată:...............Det. 12 - ObstLt. Wilde

Divizia 9 Infanterie........Det. 110 - Hptm. Dress
Divizia 14 Infanterie......Det. 114 - Hptm. Hassinger

Corp 5 Armată:...............Det. 15 - ObstLt. Engelhardt

Divizia 5 Infanterie........Det. 106 - Hptm. Schwenger
Divizia 6 Infanterie........Det. 107 - Maj. von Hohenhaisen

Corp 4 Armată:...............Det. 14 - ObstLt. Sickerman

Divizia 13 Infanterie......Det. 113 - Hptm. Krauss
Divizia 1 Cavalerie.........Det. 120 - Rttm. von Humbert

Armata 4:
Kommandierender General des deutschen Verbindungsstabes bei der 4. rumänischen Armee:
Det. 2 - Kdt: Oberst Hans Doerr

Rezervă:
Divizia 20 Infanterie......Det.

Corp 6 Armată:...............Det.

Divizia 18 Infanterie......Det.
Divizia 2 Infanterie........Det.
Divizia 1 Infanterie........Det.

Corp 7 Armată:...............Det.

Divizia 4 Infanterie........Det.
Divizia 8 Cavalerie.........Det. ??? - Maj. Aller
Divizia 5 Cavalerie.........Det. ??? - Hptm. von König

Sources:
dragos03
"Intro Wehrmacht si Armata Rosie" auther Alesandru Dutu,by Editura enciclopedica.2000,Bucuresti. isbn 973-45-0339-1.

MfG Michi

PS:
Scheibert mentions in one of his book a LtCol Puttkammer as a German Liaison Officer in the Area of the 4th Romanian Army
Doerr mentions in his book a Detachment 16 in the Area of the 4th Romanian Army.
-Any infos??

Michi · #51

I'm doing right now a Part 6.
But I'm not sure if it's topic, or off-topic.
Part 6 would be a rough OOB of the 3rd & 4th Romanian Army on 22nd December 1942.

Anyone interested??

MfG Michi

Bob_Mackenzie · #52

Michi wrote:I'm doing right now a Part 6.
But I'm not sure if it's topic, or off-topic.
Part 6 would be a rough OOB of the 3rd & 4th Romanian Army on 22nd December 1942.

Anyone interested??

MfG Michi

I am!

Cheers

Bob

David C. Clarke · #53

ME TOO!!!

Definitely not off topic Michi!!!

Best Regards,
David

Victor · #54

dragos wrote: Divizia 8 cavalerie - general de brigadã Radu Korne

He was only a colonel in 1942.

Michi · #55

Part 6: The OOB of the 3rd Romanian Army:

November 5th, 1942:

HGr „B“

->3. Romanian Army

at diposal:
---> 15. rom. InfDiv
---> 7. rom. CavDiv

-->I. rom. Corps:
---> 7. rom. InfDiv
---> 11. rom. InfDiv

-->II. rom. Corps:
---> 9. rom. InfDiv
---> 14. rom. InfDiv

-->V. rom. Corps:
---> 5. rom. InfDiv
---> 6. rom. InfDiv

-->IV. rom. Corps:
---> 18. rom. InfDiv
---> 1. rom. CavDiv

December 5th, 1942:

HGr „Don“

->3. Romanian Army

at disposal:
--> IV. Rom. Corps
--> V. Rom. Corps

-->Group „Spang“

-->Group „Fiebig“
-->Group „von Stumpfeld“

December 22nd, 1942:

HGr „Don“

->3. Romanian Army

at disposal:
--> IV. Rum. Corps
--> V. Rom. Corps

-->Group „Spang“
-->Group „von Stumpfeld“
-->Group „Stahel“

->Group „Hollidt“ (XVII. AK)

at disposal:
---> mass 306. InfDiv

-->II. rom. Corps:
---> 22. ArmDiv
--->remnants 7. rom. CavDiv
--->remnants 1. rom. ArmDiv
--->remnants 14. rom. InfDiv

--->62. InfDiv
--->294. InfDiv
--->parts 306. InfDiv

-->I. rom. Corps:
---> 7. rom. InfDiv
---> 11. rom. InfDiv
---> remnants 9. rom. InfDiv

January 1st, 1943:

HGr „Don“

at disposal:
->3. Romanian Army
-->I. rom. Corps
-->II. rom. Corps
-->IV. rom. Corps
-->V. rom. Corps

February 1st, 1943:

HGr „Don“

at disposal:
->3. Romanian Army
-->I. rom. Corps
-->IV. rom. Corps
-->V. rom. Corps

MfG Michi

David C. Clarke · #56

Beautiful Work as Usual Michi!!!!

Best Regards, David

Michi · #57

Part 7: The OOB of the 4th Romanian Army:

November 5th, 1942:

HGr „B“

at disposal
-> 4. Romanian Army

--> VI. Rom. Corps
---> 18. rom. InfDiv
---> 2. rom. InfDiv
---> 1. rom. InfDiv

--> VII. Rom. Corps
---> 4. rom. InfDiv
---> 5. rom. CavDiv
---> 8. rom. CavDiv

December 1st, 1942:

HGr „Don“
AGr „Hoth“

-> 4. Romanian Army

--> VI. Rom. Corps
---> 18. rom. InfDiv
---> 2. rom. InfDiv

--> VII. Rom. Corps
---> 1. rom. InfDiv
---> 4. rom. InfDiv

--> Rom. Cav. Corps „Popescu“
---> 5. rom. CavDiv
---> 8. rom. CavDiv

December 22nd, 1942:

HGr „Don“
AGr „Hoth“

at disposal:
-> 4. Romanian Army

at disposal:
--> Rom. Cav. Corps „Popescu“
---> 5. rom. CavDiv
---> 8. rom. CavDiv

--> VI. Rom. Corps
---> 18. rom. InfDiv
---> 2. rom. InfDiv

--> VII. Rom. Corps
---> 1. rom. InfDiv
---> 4. rom. InfDiv

January 1st, 1943:

HGr „Don“
AGr „Hoth“

at disposal:
-> 4. Romanian Army
--> VI. Rom. Corps
--> VII. Rom. Corps
--> Rom. Cav. Corps „Popescu“

February 1st, 1943:

HGr „Don“

at disposal:
-> 4. Romanian Army
-->VI. Rom. Corps
-->VII. Rom. Corps
--> Rom. Cav. Corps „Popescu“

MfG Michi

PS: In my sources the 20. Rom. InfDiv is not mentioned.

Victor · #58

Michi wrote:MfG Michi

PS: In my sources the 20. Rom. InfDiv is not mentioned.

That is probably because at that date it was in the encirclement in Stalingrad and subordinated to the 4th (German) Corps/6th Army.

Michi · #59

Michi hat folgendes geschrieben::
MfG Michi

PS: In my sources the 20. Rom. InfDiv is not mentioned.

That is probably because at that date it was in the encirclement in Stalingrad and subordinated to the IV. Germ. Corps/6th Army.

I have forgotten to mention the date.
Even on the first entry -the 5th November 1942- the 20. rom. InfDiv is missing.

@Victor:
Do you know on which date the 1. rom. CavDiv did ceased to exist (as a divisional unit)??
On 1st December it was with the XIV. Germ. Corps.
On 22nd December no 1. rom. Cav.Div with any Corps in Stalingrad.

Did the 20. rom. InfDiv at any date cease to exist (as a divisional unit)??
I have it till the End in Stalingrad with the IV. Germ. Corps.

According other sources both Romanian Divisions were dissolved (as an independent division) in the first days of the Pocket of Stalingrad.

And it seems as if the Rom. Cav. Corps „Popescu“ wasn't an ad-hoc group.

MfG Michi

Victor · #60

I only know that the 20th Infantry Division was merged in December with the German 297th and 371st Infantry Divisons.