Let's Build the Romanian Third and Fourth Armies!!!

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Abel Ravasz
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Post by Abel Ravasz » 19 Jul 2004 23:53

Hi,

let me make a deep bow to the incredible work you've done so far! Fantastic!

To the topic:

in my view, the 20. Inf Div was only tactically subordinated to the above mentioned German divisions in december. It is mentioned as a separate unit until the surrender of AOK 6 in its OOBs. Also proving my point is the change of commanders of the unit (obst Dimitrecu for gen Tataranu) in the middle of January, which would be unnecessary if the division had been disbanded before.

On the other hand, I think that the 1. Cav Div was disbanded and its sub-units distributed between the other AOK 6 divisions when its commander, gen Bratescu was captured. This happened sometimes in December, as far as I know, but sources are contradicting (some say as late as 1/2/43?). Anyways, the 1. Cav Div doesn't appear in AOK 6 OOBs from 22/12/42 onwards.

As for the Popescu group: this was a pure ad-hoc grouping based on the staff of 5. Cav Div (Dumitru Popescu) to control the remnants of the two cavalry divisions of the army and to take off pressure from the VII. Corps staff. The grouping proved to be a success, thus this ad-hoc command was kept until its divisions were finally pulled from the frontline. I don't know if gen. Popescu kept his position as CO 5. Cav during this period, maybe someone else can add this info.

So, basically in accordance with your data, Michi.
Best,

Abel

Michi
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Post by Michi » 20 Jul 2004 00:42

Fate of the Romanian Divisions-commanders inside the Pocket of Stalingrad:

Constantin Bratescu Generalmajor 1. Romanian Cavalry Division
Surrendered on 31 January 1943
Nicolae Tatranu Generalleutnant 20. Romanian Infanty Division
Flew out 19 January 1943
Romulus Dimitrescu Generalmajor 20. Roumanian Infantry Division
Surrendered on 2 February 1943


According Gert Rottiers hompage about Stalingrad.


MfG Michi
Last edited by Michi on 20 Jul 2004 00:50, edited 1 time in total.

Michi
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Post by Michi » 20 Jul 2004 00:49

20th Infantry Division with Infantry Regiments 82, 83, and 91, Artillery Regiments 31, and 40. The other reporting units took the divisional number of "20.": The 20th Transmissions, Pioneer, Police, Reconnaissance, Anti-Aircraft, Anti-Tank, Sanitary, and Ambulance Companies etc.
Beginning on November 22, 1942 the Divisional HQ were in the Basargino railway station (with the 82nd Infantry Regiment reporting to the German 297th Infantry Division and the 83rd and 91st Infantry Regiments to the German 71st and 297th Infantry Divisions in the North of Zibenko). On November 23rd all the regiments were withdrawn and replaced by German Units. On November 26th the Division's Units were divided into small units which were integrated into the German Divisions of the 4th Army Corps and directly under the command of German officers. Just before January 13, 1943 the Divisional HQ moved close to PITOMNIK. During the entire encirclement period the Units of the 20th Infantry Division were commanded bv the German 4th Army Corp.

1st Cavalry Division with Roshiors Regiments 1, 2, 12, and the 1st Mounted Artillery Regiment. All the other sub-units similar to the 20th Infantry Division were given the number “41." (i.e. the 41st Pioneer and Anti-Aircraft Squadrons, etc.).
The Division had about 4500 men in it at the time of the siege. On November 22, 1942 the division reported to the German 8th Army Corp. On November 24th it is located at Dimitrievka in the German 376th Infantry Division sector. Between December 2 and 10, 1942 the division is divided up and new sub-units raised. (11 combat sub-units and 18 working detachments and transportation columns) and integrated into 15 German divisions (from General Hube’s Group and the 51st Army Corp.). The Mounted Artillery Regiment was also disbanded with the horses given to the 376th Infantry Division and the guns destroyed. The Divisional HQ and rest of the troops (including the wounded and sick) remained at GONCEARA.


According:
http://membres.lycos.fr/dgrecu/Lftpost.html


MfG Michi

Abel Ravasz
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Post by Abel Ravasz » 20 Jul 2004 01:17

Hi,

the same Stalingrad site also has this passage at the OOB for 1/1/43:

1. Romanian Cavalry Div.
Generalmajor
Constantin Bratescu

Captured by the Russians - Remnants of the division attached to other divisions. So, confusion about the date of surrender of this general.

Best,

Abel

Michi
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The End of the 3rd Romanian Army & the 4th Romanian Army

Post by Michi » 20 Jul 2004 16:08

We were talking about the beginning of the 3rd Romanian Army & 4th Romanian Army.

But now some questions about the end of both Armies came to my mind.

When was the end of the 3rd Romanian Army??
(was it also the end of all Romanian units in this area??)

When was the end of the 4th Romanian Army??
(was it also the end of all Romanian units in this area??)


MfG Michi

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Victor
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Post by Victor » 22 Jul 2004 10:26

Abel Ravasz wrote: As for the Popescu group: this was a pure ad-hoc grouping based on the staff of 5. Cav Div (Dumitru Popescu) to control the remnants of the two cavalry divisions of the army and to take off pressure from the VII. Corps staff. The grouping proved to be a success, thus this ad-hoc command was kept until its divisions were finally pulled from the frontline. I don't know if gen. Popescu kept his position as CO 5. Cav during this period, maybe someone else can add this info.


Col. Dumitru T. Popescu commanded the 5th Cavalry Division until 3 April 1943.

Michi wrote: Nicolae Tatranu Generalleutnant 20. Romanian Infanty Division
Flew out 19 January 1943


He flew out on 13 January 1943. On 19 January he started his trip back from Bucharest, but never made it to Stalingrad, because he had to be interned in a hospital.

Michi wrote: Romulus Dimitrescu Generalmajor 20. Roumanian Infantry Division
Surrendered on 2 February 1943


That is brigadier general Romulus Dimitriu, the commander of the infantry of the 20th Division. From 14 January 1943 he took actual command of the division, in the absence of general Tataranu.

Michi wrote: When was the end of the 3rd Romanian Army??


The army command was not disbanded or demobilized. It organized the retreat towards Romania after the battle. On 16 May 1943 it was installed in Simferopol.

Michi wrote: When was the end of the 4th Romanian Army??


The army command reached Iasi on 1 April 1943 and was demobilized.

Michi
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Post by Michi » 24 Jul 2004 08:18

Part 8: German ad-hoc battle-groups with the 4th Romanian Army:


20./21. 11. 1942:
Kampfgruppe SAUBER (ad-hoc battle-group)
Kampfgruppe SAUVANT (ad-hoc battle-group)

22. 11. 1942:
Kampfgruppe BIRKENBIEHL (battle-group formed by the German Liason Staff 2)
Kampfgruppe PRUSKOWSKY (battle-group formed by the German Liason Staff 2)

25. 11. 1942:
Kampfgruppe VON PANNWITZ (battle-group formed by the German Liason Staff 2)

26. 11. 1942:
Kampfgruppe BISCHOFF (battle-group formed by the German Liason Staff 2)


??. 11. 1942:
Kampfgruppe SCHÖN (battle-group formed by the German Liason Command 16)


Any battle-group missing??



In the southern outskirts of the 4th Romanian Army also:
Gruppe Auleb
later replaced by
Gruppe von Roques



According a surviving letter of von PANNWITZ, his battle-group had a strength of 1000 men and 6 tanks of the battle-group of Major SAUVANT/14.PzDiv.
Later on a battery of Romanian Artillery was incorporated.
On the next day a the tank battle-group of a Hptm von AULOCK with 12 tanks was also part of von PANNWITZ' force.

Who was Hauptmann von AULOCK??
Any link with the later defender of Saint Malo 1944??


Was Kampfgruppe SAUVANT (parts of 14. PzDiv outside the pocket of Stalingrad) an independent Kampfgruppe?
Or was this battle-group attached to the Kampfgruppe "von PANNWITZ"?

The OoB of the Kampfgruppe "von PANNWITZ" is given in my source:
# Tank battle-group Major SAUVANT;
# Romanian Cavalry-Brigade (No. ?)
# Romanian heavy Artillery Battalion 47 (mot)
# German Supply units





MfG Michi

Abel Ravasz
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Post by Abel Ravasz » 31 Jul 2004 16:08

Strength of the divisions of the 3. Army for January, 1943:


Division.......Officers....NCOs......Soldiers.....Total
5. Inf...........18...........19............517..........554
6. Inf...........25...........23............525..........573
7. Inf...........88...........64...........1181........1333
9. Inf..........205.........191..........4411........4807
11. Inf........N/A..........N/A...........N/A..........N/A
13. Inf.........49...........47...........1259........1355
14. Inf........129.........114..........2566........2809
15. Inf.........64...........57...........1212........1333
1. Cav*.......22...........34............498..........554
7. Cav.........73...........64...........2082........2219
1. Pz...........N/A.........N/A...........N/A...........N/A


* non-encircled parts.

Info compiled from http://www.stalingrad.by.ru.

Best,

Abel

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dragos
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Post by dragos » 01 Aug 2004 11:38

According a surviving letter of von PANNWITZ, his battle-group had a strength of 1000 men and 6 tanks of the battle-group of Major SAUVANT/14.PzDiv.
Later on a battery of Romanian Artillery was incorporated.
On the next day a the tank battle-group of a Hptm von AULOCK with 12 tanks was also part of von PANNWITZ' force.

Who was Hauptmann von AULOCK??
Any link with the later defender of Saint Malo 1944??


Was Kampfgruppe SAUVANT (parts of 14. PzDiv outside the pocket of Stalingrad) an independent Kampfgruppe?
Or was this battle-group attached to the Kampfgruppe "von PANNWITZ"?

The OoB of the Kampfgruppe "von PANNWITZ" is given in my source:
# Tank battle-group Major SAUVANT;
# Romanian Cavalry-Brigade (No. ?)
# Romanian heavy Artillery Battalion 47 (mot)
# German Supply units


For Kampfgruppe Pannwitz, I have the following info:
- 1 tank group, 2 infantry companies, 1 assault gun battery (6 guns/ StuGs ?) - all German
- 1 artillery battery (105mm) - Romanian

Stephen2
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Post by Stephen2 » 30 Oct 2004 21:53

Victor wrote:Yes, the infantry divisions were territorially recruited and had pre-war garrison homes. I can make a list if you are interested. Their regiments were usually from the same geographical area as the division's garrison city, if not from the same city.


I know that men who wanted to become gendarme in the 1930’s had to go through military training before going into police training. In time of war, did the gendarme fall under the jurisdiction of the military district they trained in or were they at this point just considered civilian peacekeepers?

How did the Romanians deal with the districts that were lost to the Soviets in 1940, such as the 8th ID from Cernauti?

Do you happen to know if Romania has an equivalent to WASt if I wanted to try and look up a relative?
Thanks,

Stephen

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Victor
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Post by Victor » 01 Nov 2004 07:21

The Gendarmerie was a ,ilitary organization and was under the jurisdction of the Ministry of Defense, unlike today, when it is subordinated to the Ministry of the Interior.

Some of the units recuited from the territoiries lost in 1940 were disbanded, like the 12th, 16th or the 17th Infantry Divsions. Some were just relocated to other garrisons.

Gambit76
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Post by Gambit76 » 01 Nov 2004 22:08

Hi,

First, thank you for all the informations you put here. It is just great and i wonder where i could have find these informatoins instead.
I am currently designing for a wargame a campaign revolving on the 2 first days of operation "Uranus". I want to zoom on the situation of the 2nd Army Corps of the 3rd Army facing the 5th soviet Army, the 1st Tank Corps, the 26th Tank Corps and the 8th Cavalry Corps in Bolshoi valley...

Is there some informations available about the Oob of 2nd Army Corps (--> 9th Infantry Division, 14th Infantry Division ) ? Would you know which regiments were involved in this part oh the battle ?

It is maybe not the right place, but I am also looking for the OoB of the soviet 8th Cavalry Corps. It is a rather mysterious (and ill-fated) unit.

Last question; after paying a look to http://www.worldwar2.ro (quite great) , I would like to know more about the AT means of the typical romanian infantry division on november 42 and about all the non-standard weapons that could have been used (captured weapons and so on...).

Best regards

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dragos
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Post by dragos » 01 Nov 2004 23:09

For the OoB, visit http://www.worldwar2.ro/oob

The antitank weapons were as following:
75mm AT guns: 48 at the 3rd Army, 14 at the 4th Army (some sources include few 88 guns)
47mm Breda, Bohler and Schneider, 37mm Bofors

Captured equipment may include all tpye of weapons used by the Red Army during 1941-42, the most common being the 45mm AT gun.

Stephen2
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Post by Stephen2 » 02 Nov 2004 05:31

Victor,

From my understanding then the gendarmerie would have technically been in the 1st Army along with all other interior troops, is that correct?

Do you know if any of the police and soldier rosters survived the war and if so which government agency handles requests?

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Victor
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Post by Victor » 02 Nov 2004 12:39

Stephen2 wrote: From my understanding then the gendarmerie would have technically been in the 1st Army along with all other interior troops, is that correct?


No. The gendarmes were subordinated to the General Inspectorate of the Gendarmerie of general. Constantin "Picky" Vasiliu. There were also gendarme companies detached to the units on the front. But this is not the place to discuss the gendarmes.

There are obviously records, but I do not know what exactly you are interested in and what it is still available. Try contacting the Military Archives in Bucharest.

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