Let's Build the Romanian Third and Fourth Armies!!!

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Victor
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Post by Victor » 02 Nov 2004 12:40

Gambit76 wrote: Is there some informations available about the Oob of 2nd Army Corps (--> 9th Infantry Division, 14th Infantry Division ) ? Would you know which regiments were involved in this part oh the battle ?


The 2nd Corps was made of the 9th, 14th and 15th Infantry Divisions on 19 November. Later that day the 7th Cavalry Division was introduced into battle on the Tsutskan Valley, under the command of the 2nd Corps. On 20 November the remains of the 14th Infantry Division were reassigned to the 5th Corps, while the 9th Infantry Division was subordinated to the 1st Corps.

As for more detailed information on what happened on the fist day, look on page 4 of the thread.

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Post by Gambit76 » 02 Nov 2004 21:14

Thanks. :oops:
Reading the thread I have found some of my answers.
But here is a new question : what about the composition of the 7th Cavalry Division ? It had a quite interesting counter-attack action.
Generally, what is the typical OoB of a Cavalry Division ? I have seen they were only 6000 men strong.

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Victor
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Post by Victor » 04 Nov 2004 22:19

7th Cavalry Division:
-11th Motorized Rosiori Regiment
-11th Motorized Calarasi Regiment
-5th Horse Artillery Regiment

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Victor
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Post by Victor » 21 Nov 2004 21:52

20 November 1942

The main Soviet thrust in the sector of the 3rd Army was concentrated towards Kalach, where the 48th Panzer Corps was located. The aim was to brake through and encircle the German 6th Army in Stalingrad. The resistance put up by the two isolated armored divisions (1st Romanian and 22nd German) wasn't strong enough to stop the Red Army's advance, just to stall it.

The center of the 3rd Army continued to hold out until it was cut off from the rest of the army. It was organized ad-hoc into a group under the command of maj. gen. Mihail Lascar, the CO of the 6th Infantry Division, and was made up of the 5th, 6th and 15th Infantry Divisions and remains of the 13th and 14th.

The 6th Infantry Division was attacked from the rear by Soviet motorized infantry and tanks and had to pull back its forces from Bol. Osivkovka and Verh. Cherensky towards Golovsky. The 5th Infantry Division repulsed all attacks during the morning. Later that day, the Soviets took Varlamovsky, Perelasovsky and Shutov, effectively encircling the Lascar Group, which received the orders from the German command to fight in the encirclement.

The 7th Cavalry Division, subordinated to the 2nd Corps, received the order to organize under its command the troops in Pronin and block at all cost the Pronin-Bokovskaya road and the Tsutskan Valley. However it was pushed back from Pronin to Malakof and then to Shohlachev.

The rest of the 3rd Army continued the fighting. The 7th Infantry Division held out on its positions at Gromok and Nish. Kalininsky, while the 9th and the 11th Infantry Divisions also fought some delaying actions in the Krivskoy area.

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Victor
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Post by Victor » 25 Nov 2004 20:28

20 November 1942 – Kalmuk Steppe

This day marked also the beginning of the offensive south of Stalingrad. Early that day, powerful Soviet forces, including 130 tanks, attacked in the sector of the Romanian 6th Corps (north Tundutovo, west Plodovitoye, 3 km west Tinguto, 4 km north Tinguto Railway Station). The 57th Army attacked towards Sovetsky (to the north-west) and the 51st Army towards Kotelnikovsky (to the south). The line was broken at the junction of the 2nd and 20th Infantry Divisions and at the junction of the 1st and 18th Infantry Divisions. The Soviets advanced fast into the breaches created by the first wave, pushing the 13th Tank Corps of the 57th Soviet Army towards Saty, the 4th Mechanized Corps of the 51st Soviet Army towards Plodovitoye and later, the 4th Cavalry Corps towards Abganerovo.

The 1st Infantry Division was severely hammered and its remains were subordinated to the 4th Infantry Division. The thin line of the 2nd Infantry Division was pierced in several places and Soviet mechanized elements bypassed resistance points and by 1230 hours they had reached the division's HQ at Morisof. Broken down into small elements, some of the remaining troops were subordinated to the 18th Infantry Division and other neighboring units. The 18th Infantry Division, which held a 33 km front line, was attacked in the sector of the 90th Infantry Regiment between the Tsatsa and Sharpa Lakes and in the sector of the 18th Dorobanti Regiment on the Bol. Cheapurniky-Dubovy Ovrag direction. In danger of being encircled the Soviet 51st Army, its forces retreated towards the Aksay River. On the left flank, the link with the 20th Infantry Division was interrupted. Despite the stubborn resistance put up by the 91st Infantry Regiment and the 20th Pioneer Battalion, the Soviets broke through towards Tundutovo and Ivanovka, getting behind the division’s position. Within an hour, most of the Romanian soldiers were either dead or captured. About 30-40 men got away. The tanks reached the positions of the 40th Artillery Regiment and destroyed the 2nd Artillery Battalion. At around 1000 hours, the Soviets attacked in the center and on the left wing of the 20th Division. Out of the 1st Battalion from the 83rd Regiment, only 32 men escaped. Maj. gen. Nicolae Tataranu, the CO, managed to form a line with his reserves as he pulled back.

The situation of the 7th Corps was, however, much different. Early in the morning, the Soviets made several small-scale attacks in the sector of the 5th Cavalry Division, all of which were repulsed. In the evening, at 2100 hours, another assault on Sharnut took place, at the junction of the 7th and 8th Rosiori Regiments and a small group of 80 Soviet soldiers managed to infiltrate behind Romanian lines and to threaten the division's command point. The reserves however managed to eliminate them. The 8th Cavalry Division was taken out of the front line and moved to the Aksay area in order to reestablish the link with the 6th Corps.

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Post by Victor » 26 Nov 2004 15:46

I would like to mention several officers who distinguished themselves during the events in November 1942.

brig.general Ioan Alecu Sion was the CO of the 15th Infantry Division, which from 20 November was encircled with the rest of the Lascar Group. After his put up a stubborn defense around Golovsky, he was named commander of the detachment that had to try to brake through to the positions of the 22nd Panzer Division, after the capture of maj. general Mihail Lascar. They managed to escape during the night, but on 23 the column was attacked by Soviet armor and cut in half. General Sion managed to reach Bol. Donchinskaya with a part of his men. There the Romanians linked up with elements of the 22nd Panzer. During the night, the German tanks retreated and, at 500 hours on 24 November, the Romanian infantry found itself without any support against the Soviet tanks. General Sion was killed while fighting in the first line in the following clash. Only a few of his men managed to escape and catch up with the 22nd Panzer Division. He was awarded the Mihai Viteazul Order 3rd class posthumously.

col. Constantin Simionescu was the CO of the 39th Infantry Regiment Petru Rares from the 14th Infantry Division. His unit held out against the first Soviet assaults, but was surrounded. For nine hours he directed the resistance, until the regiment's HQ was under direct attack and he was killed. He was awarded the Mihai Viteazul Order 3rd class posthumously.

lt. col. Ioan Cratero was the CO of the 11th Motorized Calarasi Regiment, from the 7th Cavalry Division. On 19 November his regiment stopped the Soviet offensive at Blinovsky, on the Tsutskan Valley. During the night, the enemy penetrated the positions of the Romanian cavalrymen three times and each time he personally led the counterattack that repulsed them. He was killed during one such action on 22 November by a mortar shell. He was awarded the Steaua Romaniei Order with swords and Virtute Militara ribbon Commander class posthumously.

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Post by Petrus » 26 Nov 2004 17:58

Below there is what Dragos wrote here on 25th June giving numbers of equipment of the 1st Armoured Div. I would like to know if the figures have been taken from the division's TO&E or they show its actual strength on 18th Nov 1942.

1st Romanian Armored Division (18 November 1942)

Equipment:
262 light machineguns
56 heavy machineguns
8 13.2-mm AA machineguns
18 20-mm AA guns
52 47-mm AT guns
9 50-mm AT guns
9 75-mm AT guns
20 60-mm mortars
8 81.4-mm mortars
12 120-mm mortars
17 flamethrowers
12 105-mm field guns
24 100-mm field howitzers
109 R-2 tanks
11 T-3 tanks
11 T-4 tanks
2 light tanks (captured)
10 SdKfz 222 armored cars
8 SPW 251 carriers


Best regards,
Piotr

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Victor
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Post by Victor » 29 Nov 2004 22:50

The figures are for November 1942 I believe. In August the division left for the front with:
-501 officers
-593 NCOs
-11,592 soldiers
-9,335 rifles,
-378 LMGs
-61 HMGs
-67 mortars
-36 artillery pieces
-1,376 vehicles
-112 tanks
(the heavy AT guns and the medium tanks were delivered on the front)

During the fights at the Don's Bend it lost:
-130 officers
-87 NCOs
-3,067 soldiers
-about 3,000 frost bite cases
-474 rifles
-149 LMGs
-22 HMGs
-55 mortars
-22 artillery pieces
-678 vehicles
-86 tanks

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Thanks

Post by narwan » 09 Feb 2005 00:08

Great thread people. There's a wealth of info here I was looking for. I still have a few questions though. As I'm trying to 'recreate' a realistic OOB for some 'Steel Panther' PBEM games I was wondering how the heavier weapons (especially the AT guns) where divided within divisional, regimental and battallion commands. Where these attached on a company or battallion level or as separate units (companies?) only (in the ToE)? Was the calibre of the at-guns an element in the distribution (ie light guns attached to infantry companies or battallions and heavier guns in the separate at-companies)?

What I'm also wondering is whether there were actual cavalry engagements between the Romanians and Russians? Both had substantial cavalry forces, particularly to the south of Stalingrad. It would be a great 'Steel Panthers' scenario; cavalry vs cavalry!

Thanks,
Narwan

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Victor
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Post by Victor » 09 Feb 2005 08:34

Each infantry regiment had a heavy weapons company that consisted of 3 platoons equipped with 37 mm AT guns and one platoon with 47 mm AT guns (18+6 pieces). The heavy AT gun battery (6 75 mm pieces) was subordinated directly to the division's command.

As for other weapons, each infantry section (four per platoon) had one 60 mm mortar and a ZB 30 LMG. Each battalion had a heavy weapons company consisting of four MG platoons (in total 16 HMGs) and one mortar platoon (four 81.4 mm mortars). Each regiment had a heavy mortar company, equipped with six 120 mm mortars.

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Post by narwan » 10 Feb 2005 20:19

Thanks Victor. I assume the three light at-platoons in a regiment were usually divided among the battalions (6 guns per battallion or 2 per company)? Was the divisional heavy platoon 'split' normally or used as a whole for a 'strong' pak-front? (I realise it likely varied according to specific circumstances but there probably was a 'common practice' in this regard).

With regards to the pak97, it wasn't a very powerful gun, at least its regular armor piercing round wasn't that good. The HEAT rounds (Hohlladung the germans called it I think) were very effective however. My question is from what point on were these HEAT rounds made available to the romanian pak guns and in what quantity?

Narwan

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Victor
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Post by Victor » 11 Feb 2005 20:28

I don't think there was a rule on how to employ the AT batteries. They were deployed according to the situation, as were the mortars amd HMGs.

There were clashes between Romanian and Soviet cavalry. One such occasion was at Krasnii Geroy south of Stalingrad. On 21 November 1942, the village was occupied by the 4th Rosiori Regiment strengthened by two 75 mm artillery batteries, forces part of col. Korne's 8th Cavalry Division. Korne had chosen to deploy his horse-mounted troops at Krasnii Geroy, while the motorized troops were stationed at Korobkin.

In the morning of 22 November, the village was attacked several times, but all assaults were repulsed. However, in the afternon 18-20 Soviet tanks supported by cavalry infiltrated behind the Romanian postions, surrounding the 4th Rosiori Regiment. The 3rd Motorized Calarasi Regiment was sent to relief it and managed to reestablish the situation by 2100 hours.

The following day, in the morning, after a powerful artillery barrage the village was again attacked by an estimate 2-3 cavalry regiments, one motorized battalion and several tanks. After an initial resistance, the Romanian cavalrymen disengaged between 1000 and 1100 hours and pulled back towards Kotelnikovo.

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Post by Michi » 07 Aug 2005 17:28

Although the last post was made almost half a year ago, it was just today, that I missed my 2nd Part:


Part 2: The 22nd Armored/Tank Division (German)


First row:
18/11/1942
Second row: 20/11/1942
Third row: 30/11/1942
Datas in brackets: The Day Before


22nd Armored/Tank Division (German):
operational:......(??) ??................(38.) 31..........(07) 09
Pz II:............... (??) ??......................01..................--
Pz 38(t):.......... (??) ??......................01.................01
Pz III/50kz:..... (??) --......................--..................--
Pz III/50lg:..... (??) --.......................09.................01
Pz III/75kz:..... (??) ??..................... 09.................02
Pz IV/75kz:..... (??) --.......................01.................01
Pz IV/75lg:..... (??) ??.......................10.................04
PzBefWg:........ (??) --.......................--.................--

07 tanks lost on 19/11/1942
02 tanks repaired on 29/11/1942

18/11/1942:
no datas given
20/11/1942:
in overhauling/repairs service: 19
not with the Division because of technical malfunctions, while the march to new location: 22
not with the Division, stayed in old location because of attached to various infantry units: 28
30/11/1942:
in overhauling/repairs service: 22



MfG Michi

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Post by Dani 2 » 04 Dec 2005 21:32

Michi wrote:Part 3: The Strength of the 3rd Romanian Army and the 4th Romanian Army:

19th November 1942:

Armata 3
Rezervă...............................Officers...........NCOs...........Men
Divizia 15 Infanterie...................455...............387 .........13707
Divizia 7 Cavalerie.....................241...............203............6205
Corp 1 Armată
ENI.........................................155...............136.............3136
Divizia 7 Infanterie.....................440...............305...........13485
Divizia 11 Infanterie...................502...............371...........14950
Corp 2 Armată
ENI..........................................207................180...........4028
Divizia 9 Infanterie......................472................400.........13349
Divizia 14 Infanterie....................437................376.........11775
Corp 5 Armată
ENI..........................................268................254...........5273
Divizia 5 Infanterie......................474................427.........13624
Divizia 6 Infanterie......................442................434 ........13296
Corp 4 Armată
ENI..........................................173................172...........3883
Divizia 13 Infanterie....................400................322.........10635
Divizia 1 Cavalerie.......................221...............241...........6895

Divizia 1 Blindată is missing.

MfG Michi


For Divizia 1 Blindata (as a reserve on Army Group B): 515 officers, 589 NCO and 11092 men (as on 19th of November 1942 - According to: Mihail Vasile Ozunu, Petre Otu - Infranti si uitati - Romanii in batalia de la Stalingrad, "Ion Cristoiu " Printing House, Bucharest, 1999, ISBN 973-98249-0-0)

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Post by Dani 2 » 04 Dec 2005 21:57

Michi wrote:
Michi hat folgendes geschrieben::
MfG Michi

PS: In my sources the 20. Rom. InfDiv is not mentioned.



That is probably because at that date it was in the encirclement in Stalingrad and subordinated to the IV. Germ. Corps/6th Army.



I have forgotten to mention the date.
Even on the first entry -the 5th November 1942- the 20. rom. InfDiv is missing.


@Victor:
Do you know on which date the 1. rom. CavDiv did ceased to exist (as a divisional unit)??
On 1st December it was with the XIV. Germ. Corps.
On 22nd December no 1. rom. Cav.Div with any Corps in Stalingrad.

Did the 20. rom. InfDiv at any date cease to exist (as a divisional unit)??
I have it till the End in Stalingrad with the IV. Germ. Corps.

According other sources both Romanian Divisions were dissolved (as an independent division) in the first days of the Pocket of Stalingrad.


And it seems as if the Rom. Cav. Corps „Popescu“ wasn't an ad-hoc group.

MfG Michi


My previous post quoted source cited Romanian MoD archives for the strength of Romanian units trapped on Stalingrad between 10th of January and 31st of January:

20th Infantry Division:
Officers: 244;
NCOs:201;
Men: 5689;

1st Cavalry Division:
Officers: 124;
NCOs:145;
Men: 4476;

"Voicu" Detachment:
Officers: 68;
NCOs:68;
Men: 1595;

As for materials:

20th Infantry Division:
Horses: 2058;
Guns: 27;
AT guns: 11;
Machine-guns: 224;
Rifles: 4702;
Vehicles (all kind): 49;
Carts and horse-tracted: 529;
Motorcycles: 4;

1st Cavalry Division:
Horses: 1158;
Guns: 6;
AT guns: 14;
Machine-guns: 91;
Rifles: 2200;
Vehicles (all kind): 15;
Carts and horse-tracted: 329;
Motorcycles: 13;

"Voicu" Detachment:
Horses: 77;
Guns: 18;
AT guns: 4;
Machine-guns: 22;
Rifles: 999;
Vehicles (all kind): 66;
Carts and horse-tracted: 16;
Motorcycles: 24;

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