Romanian army at battle of Stalingrad

[Milan Szekelyhidi]

Milan

What publication did you scan the map from?

Péter Gosztonyi: The Hungarian Army in WW2.

Milan

[Andy H]

Milan

Thank you for the info on the book.

Does it give any detail about the Hungarian units (7th & 13th ID's) involved in the relief attempt on Kovel (Kowel) in early'44

Andy from the Shire

[Milan Szekelyhidi]

The Hungarian Invading Forces:

The Hungarian Invading Forces Carpathian-Group units: 1. mountain brigade, 8. . frontier brigade, 15., 16., IX. Bicycle battalion, 106., 107., 108. army service battalion from 1941. July. 8 to October.- December at Dnyester Ukrain region. 5. Hungarian Invading Army-body to 1942. January in Ukrain 102., 105., 108., 121., 124. infantry brigade, II., VII. Bicycle battalion, II., III. engineer battalion, 102. railway-builder battalion, and any field and anti-airforce artillery battery, VI. Bacteriology station. The 105., 108. Infantry brigade more used for attack opposite partisans with soviet. After 18. January 1942 the 108. went to Harkov for 6. German Army, later the 102. went to Belgorod-Obojan region 2. German Army, the II. Bicycle battalion went to Pavlovgrad for 17. German Army.
From 5. February 1942. command Hungarian Invading Forces built the East Invading Forces command 102., 105., 108. infantry brigade, east from Dnyeper and West Invading Forces command 121., 124. infantry brigade, west from Dnyeper. In 24. January 1942. 2. Hungarian Army command from the Hungarian Invading Forces 19 battalions, 4, the 5. German South Army-group command 15 battalions ordered. The infantry battalions of Hungarian Invading Forces have renamed to light since 12 February 1942. The 121. and 124. went to Proskurov - Berdicsev region, the 102. and 105. went to Kijev - Kursk railway, and Brjanski-fortress region, and used opposite the partisans. The Csimelj, Szeregyina Buda, Putyivl and Glukov regions started the attack with the 2. Hungarian Army arrived units. The 108. light division went to Harkov, after that attack in Smijev - Taranovka region on march. 14-26., after that the fought at Harkov and lost the tank groups 40% on may. 12-18. After that went to south-west of Kursk Seregyina Buda region.
The Hungarian Invading Forces region not changed on 1942. may - 1943. march, but the usage was changed in October. In 1943. january 5-30. went to Ukrajnába the 1., 201., april. 30. - may. 15. the 18., 25. light division. In march the 105., 108. light division had a serious suffer losses the command of Middle Army-group the german 2. panzer and 2. army between fought.
In 1943. may. 1 built the Hungarian Invading Forces from 2. Hungarian Army in Kijev. The West Invading Forces the VII. Army corps (18., 25., 121., 124. light battalion, 2. airforces brigade), the West Invading Forces the in 1943. June the VIII. Army corps (1., 102., 105., 108., 281. light division). The more army-body name changed: 102.to 12., 108. to 9., 105. to 5., 121. to 21., 25. to 19., 124. to 23. light division. In 1943. June to 1944 early the Hungarian Invading Forces used the 101. and 102. panzer squadron, and from the Romanian Army escaped Hungarians and Székelys built the Kolozsvár guard-battalion.
July 1943. the Hungarian Invading Forces fought region was Galicia an Poland region, Pripjaty, Kovel and Brest region. The 1. light division fought east of Kijev at Gyesna river opposite soviet tanks and rifleman group. The 5-19. September 1943. the poorly equipped units became half.
In early 1944 ap. 90000 person was in the Hungarian Invading Forces. The 4 Army-body of VII. Army corps was driven to Carpathian. It fought from March. 9 in Galicia, from 22 they attached to the South Army-group and went to Dnyester-line defense. During military operations at the Proskurov-Chernovic in march 27. – april 2., the 21. and 201. light division had got very heavy loss. That time the 5. light division of VIII. Army corps at Pinsk - Brest region carry out the railway defense.
4. April 1944. the Hungarian Invading Forces disbanded and dissolved in the 1. Hungarian Army.
The VII. Army corps (18., 19., 201. light division) went to the 1. Hungarian Army, the VIII. Army corps (1., 5., 9., 12., 21., 23. light division became Hungarian Invading Group. The light divisions of invading became reserve troops with 3 p. infantry regiments in may. Became the name II. reserve troops in may 1. From the 6 light division was formed the 5., 12. and 23. reserve troops. That was the Hungarian army in Poland. The 12 and 23 reserve troops went to home when Romania change side. The 5. reserve troops was the last Hungarian invading unit in end of December. After that they didn’t back home. 1945 fought the Ondva-valley defense line, and went to Czech -Morva Protectorate and Ostmarkon and Bayer.

Commanders: Kárpát-group: ->Ferenc Szombathelyi lieutenant-general (1941. July. 8. - September. 6.), Ferenc Farkas major general (1941. September 6. - October 1.), Károly Olgyai major general (1941. October 1-6.); Hungarian Invading Group (from 1942. February 9 East Invading Group): Károly Olgyai major general (1941. October 6. - 1942. May 26.), Károly Bogányi major general (1942. may 26. - august 11.), Szilárd Bakay major general (1942. august 11. - 1943. june 23.); West Invading Group: György Sziklay major general (1942. february 9. – october 15.), Imre Széchy major general (1942. october 15. - 1943. may 1.); Royal Hungarian Invading Forces: Ernõ Gyimessy major general (1943. may 1-22.), Géza Lakatos major general (1943. may 22. - 1944. march 31.); VIII. Army corps: Dezsõ László major general (1944. march 31. - april 5.); Hungarian Invading Group (from 1944. may. 1 II. Reserve troops): Jenõ Bor major general (1944. april. 5. - july. 18.), Antal Vattay major general (1944. july. 18. - august 20.), Béla Lengyel major general (1944. august 20. - september 22.)

The 1. Hungarian army gone to Galicia (West-Ukraine) in 17 april 1944. It was piece of the North-Ukraine army group. Lvov (Lemberg) to Kovel the 4. German panzer army on North, that for Shout the 1. German panzer army. Stanislav to Kuti-Del the I. Hungarian army.

1. Hungarian army:

Commander: Géza Lakatos general
Cheaf of the general stuff: Sándor Makray colonel
Artillery commander: Jenõ Kunczfalussy major general
Technological commander: Géza Vidos major general
Signaller commander: Tybery Willibald colonel

VII. army corps
Commander of VII. Army corps: István Kiss lieutenant-general
18. reserve division: József Vasváry major general
16. infantry division: Béla Lengyel major general

XI. German army corps (Hungarian pieces)
Commander of XI. Army corps: Rudolf von Bünau infantry General
24. infantry division: Aladár Pintér major general
1. mountain brigade: Ferenc Loskay major general
2. mountain brigade: Géza Fehér major general
2. panzer division: Ferenc Osztovics colonel

VI. army corps
Commander of VI. Army corps: Ferenc Farkas lieutenant-general
25. infantry division: Mihály Ibrányi major general
27. light division: András Zákó colonel
210. reserve division: József Kisfaludy major general
20. infantry division: Frigyes Vasváry major general

A.p. 180000 Hungarian solders.

Géza Lakatos general not contented for Geza Feher major general, commander of 2. montain brigade, becouse Lakatos blame Feher for failure at Kolomija (Ukraine). Lakatos was exempt Feher for commander and he withdraw the 2. mountain brigade from swhere in 7 may 1944. After the reorganization the 2. mountain brigade been place under VI. army corps.

Sources:
Hungary in the WW2 lexicon A-Zs
Péter Gosztonyi: The Hungarian Army in WW2

Milan

[panzzer]

what others troops was trap on Stalingrad!?(without romanian and german troops)

[Victor]

I know that a Croatian regiment also fought at Stalingrad, but I do not know if it fell in the encirclement.

[GLADIVM]

in his book "STALINGRAD" Anthony Beevor indicates that the Croatian regiment was trapped in Stalingrad and cites a german officer who was contacted by Croatian fellow officers in order to have their girlfriends evacuated by air form Stalingrad , he could not help but was later informed that the girls left the besieged city .
In the same book is indicated thay in the siege were also trapped several hundred italians , around 400 , from a supply unit which went in the city looking for wood .
But the most people of non german origin were the russian auxiliaries "HIWIS" they could have been as much as 50.000 , of course at surrender they were disposed off by NKVD and no record of them was ever kept

[Der Maresal]

At Stalingrad the Romanian 20th Infantry Division commanded by General Dimitriu surrendered to the Russians in the horrible cold of February 1943.

The Russian Propaganda film shows the sad face of Dimitriu as he speaks with the German officers - this was a catastrophy of unimaginable proportions, considering that the entire Romanian 3rd army was compleatly anihilated, and that only 3000 survived to walk into captivity.
One should read from Romanian sources the horror of the soviet attack back in November.
It bagun with a terrible attack in the North, - the bombardment was so intense it equaled a Nuclear Strike.
Romanian Soldiers were burried alive in their underground bunkers - on the surface a horribel scene was taking place
everything on the surface was pulverised by the grenades and Katyusha Rockets, everything was finished on the top.
The cries of wounded died down, as the sound of Russian Tanks grew louder - the tanks finished what remained - they crushed meat and bones
entire units were anihilated.

Comrades that had fought through the hard battles from the previous sommer - at Sevastopol, at Rostov - and all the other tough battles - and had toasted victory with a glas of Vine - now lay dead, and frozen on the Russian steppe. Peoples with experience, Veterans from the previous years who perhaps wanted to see their country victorious - they found a horrible death.
The Russians took the boots and other items they found on the frozen corpses and after that everything remained frozen - frozen solid.
The next day, the 20th the Bolshevics attacked from the south - and Stalingrad was surrounded.

Inside the pocket were 250 000 Germans - the 6th Army, some 4th Panzer army-
Romanians - Croatians, some Hungarians and even Russian Volunteers.

When everything collapsed in February, what remained of the Romanians (3000 Survivors) surrendered to the Russians in Stalingrad.
The Germans: - 24 Generals, 2000 Officers, 1 Feld Marshall and 91 000 (ninety one tousand)- surrendered
--- 150 000 dead ---.

To this day - in the Romanian Sources are listed 309 333
Soldiers as Missing.
Nobody knows how many died from the war, or in the Russian Camps, or else.
This disaster will hunt us as well as the germans for the rest of our existance.
The Romanian losses were the third largest at Stalingrad -, but when two giants are fighting, who cares
about the sacrifices of our insignificant and miserable little country?

[Victor]

Nice post, but you made some mistakes.

Comrades that had fought through the hard battles from the previous sommer - at Sevastopol, at Rostov

From the three Romanian divisions that fought at Sevastopol in 1942, only the 18th Infantry Division was at Stalingrad, but it was not in the 3rd Army, as you said. It was in the 4th. That is to the south of Stalingrad. They faced the Soviet counter-offensive on 20 November. That is a day later, not three.

There are not 400,000 Romanian WWII MIAs, but 367,000, of which 309,000 in the East. Not all died in the Soviet prisons. Many returned after 5 years or so and one returned last year (the only time I watched Surprize,surprize... )

[Maresal-06]

Der Maresal... When I read your post, I FEAL HORRIFIED... The poor Romanian peasant hadn't an AT gun or capable tank to fight trough this terrible storm... Hitler "promised" 75 mm AT guns, but only 50 arrived, and that, for 2 armies...!

[Der Maresal]

Hello Dutchhelm Victor, thank for the interesting, but not quite accurate information. The Exact Number according to my book is 309 333 -

You underestimated 333 Romanian lives - the Book is written by Dinu C. Giurescu and is called Romania in al doilea Razboi mondial.

Your number is closer than mine, true but I think there may be more than that - many have not been accounted for. And when I gave the 400 000 I estimated roughly - of course there were not exactly 400 000, but close - I estimated, just like jews estimate and like to play with numbers, and with millions - especially their favorite number "6" ...6 million..

*I will quote from the Book so you can see for yourself- p.107-

"Nu s-a stabilit pina in prezent cati din cei 309 333 "disparuti" au cazut in lupta, au fost luati prizonieri sau au murit in lagare. Nici cifra prizonierilor intorsi in Romania nu se cunoaste."

~English: Until the prezent day, it is not known how many of the
309 333 "missing" fell in battle, were taken prisioner, or died in camps. Even the number of Prisoners that returned to Romania is not known -

So you tell me that one returned recently -.. well well, just one?
I guess that's quite a "surprize, surprize".. :roll:

[Arkady]

Hi, I have question

Why most historians label romanian units as worse of German allies? But what I know about them they seems to me as finest (with Finns). They recieved most RKs then any others non-germans. 3rd Army north of Stalingrad with insufficent armament was able stop 57th Tank Army for 3-4 days and Mihail Lascar received Oakleaves (Do you know for what particular action?).
Maybe pro-german historians want blame something for german incompetence and choose romanians?

thx for reply

Arkady

[Victor]

I also have that book, plus the one from where Dinu Giurescu got the figures.
I was only too lazy to write the rest of the number.

[Andy H]

Arkhady

You are partially correct when you say that some German historians look for a convineint scapegoat in Romania, but the lack of decent Romanian histories etc only add's to this imbalance. Hopefully now after the Communist era more objective books (Some in English-Please) may surface to give a balanced picture of Romanian feats of arms in WW2

Andy from the Shire

PS: Victor I havn't forgot your PM, just trying to find the books again.