Hitler & Pavelic

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Benoit Douville
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Hitler & Pavelic

Post by Benoit Douville » 18 Feb 2005 02:36

How many times Hitler and Pavelic met during World War II? I am looking for dates, reasons and place exactly. I know that they meet on June 6 1941 that's it.
Last edited by Benoit Douville on 18 Feb 2005 20:01, edited 1 time in total.

Larry D.
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Post by Larry D. » 18 Feb 2005 13:26

Benoit -

Didn't Poglavnik meet with Hitler during an inspection tour to visit with Croatian units in the East in September 1942? Without digging out some books that are stored in boxes in the garage, I have vague recollections that there was a meeting at that time, but it's very possible that I'm wrong, too. There is a German language book that provides a stenographic record of all of Hitler's conferences mit auslandischen Stattsmänner. IIRC, it provides a record on definitely two and possible three meetings between the two.

--Larry

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USAF1986
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Post by USAF1986 » 19 Feb 2005 00:03

Hi! In the source cited below there is a photo of Pavelić meeting Hitler at FHQu “Wehrwolf,” circa September 1942. I’ll flip through the book tonight to see if any other meetings between the two are documented.

Best regards,
Shawn

SOURCE: Johnson, Aaron L. Hitler’s Military Headquarters: Organization, Structure, Security and Personnel. R. James Bender Publishing, San Jose, California, 1999.

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Allen Milcic
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Post by Allen Milcic » 19 Feb 2005 00:17

Hi Benoit:

According to Slaven Ravlic's biography of Pavelic, he met with Hitler on the following dates:

1. June 6, 1941 - discussions on the NDH joining the Axis
2. September 22, 1942 (though I have seen reference to this meeting happening in mid-November - possibly two seperate meetings?) - discussions on increasing German assistance in breaking the Communist rebellion in the NDH, especially in Bosnia.

Meetings with Benito Mussolini:

1. March 29, 1941
2. May 7, 1941

Best regards,
Allen/

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Benoit Douville
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Post by Benoit Douville » 19 Feb 2005 17:04

Hi all,

I appreciate the info, if you have more related to the meetings between Hitler and Pavelic, don't hesitated to post it here.

Regards
Last edited by Benoit Douville on 20 Feb 2005 03:52, edited 1 time in total.

Larry D.
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Post by Larry D. » 19 Feb 2005 17:36

Benoit -

Here is the book I mentioned earlier. It give a 2 to 4 page stenographic record of all of Hitler's meetings with Pavelic and exactly what was discussed:

LC Control Number: 67083297
Type of Material: Text (Book, Microform, Electronic, etc.)
Brief Description: Hillgruber, Andreas.
Staatsmänner und Diplomaten bei Hitler. Vertrauliche Aufzeichnungen über Unterredungen mit Vertretern des Auslandes.Frankfurt a. M., Bernard u. Graefe, 1967-1970.
v. with illus. 24 cm.
CALL NUMBER: DD247.H5 H46
Copy 1
-- Request in: Jefferson or Adams Bldg General or Area Studies Reading Rms
-- Status: Not Charged

HTH,

--Larry

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Post by Larry D. » 19 Feb 2005 19:15

Benoit -

I was pretty sure there was a third meeting. I guess my old brain cells aren't dead yet.

"Pavelic met with Hitler at the Führer Haupfquartier "Wolfsschanze" in East Prussia on 18 September 1944, and during the conversation explained his views on the Lorkovic-Vokic Affair. Poglavnik claimed that the "Plot" was triggered by the fall of the Romanian Antonescu government on 23 August. Certain Croatian intellectuals, including Lorkovic and Vokic, had lost faith in eventual Axis victory and believed it better to turn Croatia over to the British before the Russians took it. Pavelic went on to say that the "Plot" was supported by the old Radic Peasant Party, and that the conspirators had proposed to him a disbanding of the Ustasha. When the British then entered Croatia they would negotiate with the regular Domobranstvo forces instead of the political Ustasha party forces. According to Pavelic, he told the conspirators that the English would never come, and any intruder would have to deal with the Ustasha and their armed might. Poglavnik had the conspirators arrested and imprisoned, he told the Führer, but was reluctant to do more for fear of making martyrs of them."
(HILGRUBER, Andreas (ed.). Staatsmänner und Diplomaten bei Hitler. Frankfurt/M.: Bernard & Graefe, 1970. pp.508-09).

The above translated from the German 19 Feb 05 by yours truly. You should study German, Benoit.

--Larry

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Post by Larry D. » 19 Feb 2005 19:38

More on Lorkovic - Vokic:

The official postwar Yugoslav account of the Affair is that it was all a plot hatched by Macek's Peasant Party to unite the Domobranstvo and the Chetniks, seize part of the Dalmatian coast and welcome ashore an Allied landing force. Pavelic would supposedly be allowed to escape to Switzerland and Macek would become president of the NDH. According to this version, Pavelic nearly went along with the proposal and the conspirators were not arrested until be had been ordered to do so by the German Gestapo, who allegedly are credited with discovering the plot in the first place.
(DEDIJER, Vladimir et al. History of Yugoslavia. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1974. pp.663-64)

Another interesting facet of the Affair is the fact that Gen.d.Inf. Edmund Glaise von Horstenau was deeply implicated in it. During the first week of September, Pavelic and German ambassador Siegfried Kasche (a fanatical Nazi and former SA illuminary) conspired together and effected the removal of Glaise von Horstenau on 7 September. It was his removal that opened the door for the total politicalization of the Croatian armed forces, which occured over the next several months.
(KISZLING, Rudolf. Die Kroaten. pp.210-11)

--Larry

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Allen Milcic
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Post by Allen Milcic » 19 Feb 2005 22:21

Larry D. wrote:More on Lorkovic - Vokic:

The official postwar Yugoslav account of the Affair is that it was all a plot hatched by Macek's Peasant Party to unite the Domobranstvo and the Chetniks, seize part of the Dalmatian coast and welcome ashore an Allied landing force. Pavelic would supposedly be allowed to escape to Switzerland and Macek would become president of the NDH. According to this version, Pavelic nearly went along with the proposal and the conspirators were not arrested until be had been ordered to do so by the German Gestapo, who allegedly are credited with discovering the plot in the first place.
(DEDIJER, Vladimir et al. History of Yugoslavia. New York: McGraw-Hill, 1974. pp.663-64)

Another interesting facet of the Affair is the fact that Gen.d.Inf. Edmund Glaise von Horstenau was deeply implicated in it. During the first week of September, Pavelic and German ambassador Siegfried Kasche (a fanatical Nazi and former SA illuminary) conspired together and effected the removal of Glaise von Horstenau on 7 September. It was his removal that opened the door for the total politicalization of the Croatian armed forces, which occured over the next several months.
(KISZLING, Rudolf. Die Kroaten. pp.210-11)

--Larry


Hi Larry:

The ultimate source for information on the coup, Mladen Lorkovic's diary (published recently in Croatia under the title 'Ministar - urotnik' [The Minister - Conspirator]), confirms that the coup conspirators had contact with and assistance from HSS members within the NDH (Kosutic, Farolfi), and engaged mostly HSS sympathizers within the regular armed forces for the coup, but the plot itself was initially hatched and brought to life by disenchanted members of the Ustase. The diary also confirms that both Lorkovic and Vokic had contact with Pavelic himself about the coup (!), which I think is once again clear evidence that Pavelic had little personal power remaining by 1944, and that the NDH was de facto controlled in this time period by the "rasovi" (especially Luburic, Lisak and Herencic) with Pavelic as a figurehead. Pavelic was considering going along with the proposed exile post-coup, but the entire coup plan fell by the wayside due to the betrayal of Vokic's friend and co-conspirator Ante Stitic. For reasons yet to be determined, Stitic prepared a 4-page typed report on the conspiracy and its ring-leaders, and delivered same to Colonel Herencic (one of the Colonels of the 'rasovi' and an old enemy of Vokic). Herencic immediately notified Sigfried Kasche, as you noted a dedicated Nazi, who insured that the conspiracy was terminated before it ever really came to life. Pavelic was forced to deny any knowledge of the conspiracy in order to save his life, and went along with the arrest and imprisonment of Vokic, Lorkovic et al (August 30, 1944). I note that both Vokic and Lorkovic pleaded at their trial with Pavelic: "Poglavnik, we did not betray you, you knew what we were doing". The plea fell on deaf ears, as Pavelic (ever the survivor) flatly denied this. Of course, the ultimate murder of both Lorkovic and Vokic at Lepoglava probably forever terminated any chance of fully knowing the minutae of the conspiracy.

Cloak & dagger, intrigues and political back-stabbing at its Croatian best.

Kind regards,
Allen/

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Post by Larry D. » 19 Feb 2005 23:52

Cloak & dagger, intrigues and political back-stabbing at its Croatian best.


That DOES add some new and exciting elements to the story, especially the part about Ante Stitic, Allen. Until this revelation, I was beginning to believe Dedijer's claim that the Gestapo discovered the conspiracy, mainly because they had uncovered several others before this one. The Polizeiattaché Anlagen (appendices) in the Kasche Embassy files make for some equally interesting reading as plot after plot was nipped in the bud by the Gestapo, UNS and the Abwehr. Poglavnik was not a popular guy among those who would seek to be king. You were right when you labeled him a figurehead.

I have always been curious whether or not Bletchley Park ever picked up the scent of the Lorkovic-Vokic conspiracy. They were reading virtually everything sent by radio in the NDH at that point, having broken most MINORS crypto and code systems within days of their introduction and were reading most of the traffic currently. If the head conspirators did any communicating with like-minded Domobran generali and pukovnici in the field, they almost certainly would have had occasion to use coded communications transmitted by radio at least once in awhile. Perhaps London and Caserta were aware that something was afoot in Zagreb.

BTW, the account in the Lorkovic diary of the role played by the HSS is dead on with the account in Macek's In the Struggle for Freedom. But the Lorkovic diary adds important details that I have not seen elsewhere. As they say, it takes an insider.

Cheers,

--Larry

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Post by Larry D. » 21 Feb 2005 00:44

Allen -

One final postscript re Lorkovic-Vokic.

JENDRAŠIĆ, Stjepan. c. 04.44 general staff Pukovnik, chief of the Logistics Branch in HQ MINORS; characterized by the Germans as an anglophile in close liaison with the HSS; his wife is Serbian but converted to Catholicism (T-120 roll 5789/H303126). 31.08.44 Puk., arrested this date for his part in the Lorković-Vokić Affair (T-120 roll 5793/H306594).

From the above, it looks like the Gestapo in Zagreb was keeping a very close eye on many if not most of the conspirators as early as April 1944. I have the same entries for at least a half-dozen others for the same date. So maybe Ante Stitic didn't really need to write his 4-page letter after all. Perhaps the conspiracy was already discovered and the police were just biding their time before they pounced.

--Larry

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Post by Benoit Douville » 21 Feb 2005 03:18

Larry,

That is very interesting stuff the meeting between Hitler and Pavelic in East Prussia on 18 September 1944. I really appreciate the time and the effort that you put in for those excellent post.

Regards

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Allen Milcic
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Post by Allen Milcic » 21 Feb 2005 15:39

Hi Larry:

I believe that the Gestapo kept tabs on all potential anti-Nazi/anti-Ustasa individuals (HSS sympathizers, suspected anglophiles etc.) as a regular MO. Perhaps they had gotten wind of some kind of potential plot, however, from what I have read from various sources, the details of the coup (and especially Pavelic's knowledge of same) seems to have by-passed their sensors. Stitic's written report seems to have been the basis upon which the "rasovi" and the Gestapo gained knowledge not only of the seriousness of the plot, but also about how widespread it was (indeed, also a list of names of the conspirators!). Pavelic managed to save himself from implication literally by the skin of his teeth. To this day, though, it is unclear what had pushed Stitic into betraying his best friend Vokic (Stitic was the Best Man at Vokic's wedding!).

I note that Jendrasic was also murdered by Luburic(?) in April of 1945 - a clean sweep was certainly made of all the main protagonists of the coup.

Best regards,
Allen/

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Post by Larry D. » 21 Feb 2005 16:25

Allen:
To this day, though, it is unclear what had pushed Stitic into betraying his best friend Vokic (Stitic was the Best Man at Vokic's wedding!).


Probably fear, Allen, probably fear. Perhaps he knew that at least a few of the arrests were imminent and was afraid of being implicated when the arrestees were interogated. So he wrote the letter to protect himself and his family. Ante Štitić was chief of UNS Section IV in 1941 and knew only too well the fate that awaited traitors.

Very best,
--Larry

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Post by Boby » 19 May 2007 14:20

I find that Pavelic also visited Hitler at Klessheim on Spring 1944. I see the Color pictures of that meeting by Walter Frentz.

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