After fall of Stalingrad, and the Romanian war again Germany

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panzzer
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After fall of Stalingrad, and the Romanian war again Germany

Post by panzzer » 07 Sep 2002 03:03

After battel of Stalingrad the germans had a defence war , the Romanian army had turn his
weapon agains Germany, Germany had lost one ally , What was hapened next, Was there
some battels again Romanian army In Romania? was there Italian or Hungarian troops, or
some else troops?

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Victor
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Post by Victor » 07 Sep 2002 08:50

After Stalingrad, the remains of the divsions that made it were sent back in Romania to reorganize. Only 8 divisions remained on the front in the Caucasusand in Crimea. They fought in the Taman bridge head and then retreated to Crimeain late 1943.

But wouldn't it be better if you read this by yoourself?

http://www.wwii.home.ro

Just go in the Campaigns section and read the chapters after Stalingrad! :D

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panzzer
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Post by panzzer » 07 Sep 2002 22:15

you have right Victor :wink:

but I try to make a discution about the louse of Ally's becouse this in the time of war it's very

very bad! And the Romanian army had turned his weapon again Germany!

I dont like this strategy, I know that they had no option but...ally whit Russia? :x

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Victor
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Post by Victor » 08 Sep 2002 16:32

It was ally with Russia or turn all the Wallachia, Dobruja and southern Moldavia into a battlezone with many more useless distruction. And of course the main Romanian foreign policy ain the annexation of NW Transylvania would have never happened! i don't know if you read the interview with cdor. Stoian on my site, but if you do you will see why he fought against Germany!

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Andy H
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Post by Andy H » 08 Sep 2002 18:02

Romania was caught between the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea. Though Romania caught have stood and fought with Germany after August'44, to what end?. The course of the war had changed long ago and Romanian self interest was best served by allying with the Russians and damm the consequences for by not siding with them the consequences may have been far worse.

:D Andy from the Shire

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Ebusitanus
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Post by Ebusitanus » 09 Sep 2002 15:25

There is something so unholy in that turncoat thing...going through your website I keep seeing those Romanians using German weapons to fight "the enemy". As a Romanian soldier who had fought with the Germans in Russia I would feel deeply ashamed of turning my weapons on my fromer allies. This goes as well for Finns and Italians, suddenly fighting on the "good side".

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Andy H
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Post by Andy H » 09 Sep 2002 18:01

As ashamed as you may feel you would have little choice but to obey the orders or face the consequences not only to yourself but possibly to your family, it wasn't as if the Russians asked Romania to fight the Germans more a case of "You will or else..."

:D Andy from the Shire

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Victor
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Post by Victor » 10 Sep 2002 09:13

Ebusitanus wrote:There is something so unholy in that turncoat thing...going through your website I keep seeing those Romanians using German weapons to fight "the enemy". As a Romanian soldier who had fought with the Germans in Russia I would feel deeply ashamed of turning my weapons on my fromer allies. This goes as well for Finns and Italians, suddenly fighting on the "good side".
The situation was not as pink as you may think it was.

First of all Romania was not a traditional ally of Germany. On the contrary. It only allied itself with Germany, because there was practically no other way in 1940. It did participate in the attack on the SU, because it had to reclaim the land lost in 1940 and continued over the former border without much popular support. The 3rd was subordinated to the German command and was practically broken into pieces by the them. There cases when a higher-ranking Romanian general was subordinated to a lower ranking German general. The Romanian trucks were used by the Germans for their own needs, while Romanians were left to walk. But all these were overcome. The Romanians are used to swallowing this kind of stuff.

After Stalingrad, when the Germans treated the Romanian soldiers with much brutality, as if they were not allies, when Romanian soldiers were executed by German commanders, when Romanians were left behind to the Russians, when the Germans fled, the relationships became colder and colder. The same thing happened again in Crimea, where the Germans sacrificed Romanian soldiers so that they could get their a**es out of there.

Germany was the one that forced Romania to cede NW Transylvania to Hungary in 1940 and this was not forgotten by many. But when the front reached Romania, things became different. The Germans transferred the majority of their motorized and armored forces as well as Luftwaffe out of Romania after the Bagration. The front was weak. Romania risked to become a front. Plus the Russians promised NW Transylvania. Why stand a die together with the Germans who could not realize that they already lost the war? The same Germans that treated us like crap and taken land away from us?

As I already said on the other topic, the Germans were allowed initially to leave unharmed. But they were the ones who attacked and tried to replace the government. Did the Romanian army have the right to defend the King? The Germans were not able to repeat the stunt they pulled in Hungary.

Those German weapons you see at the Romanian soldiers were paid for and please save me your 2 cent rhetoric! The Germans were buying the oil products at the pre-war prices, while we were buying weapons at the inflated price!

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Arkady
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Post by Arkady » 10 Sep 2002 10:00

I agree with you Victor.....
As Clauswitz wrote: War is the continuation
of politics by other means
.
And Romania is endependent state so they want most profit for itself. And change sides is correct in political terms.

Arkady

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Post by Ovidius » 10 Sep 2002 11:18

Victor wrote:The Germans were buying the oil products at the pre-war prices, while we were buying weapons at the inflated price!
After 1942, they paid for the oil in gold bullion(which was later confiscated by the Soviets as usual). Guess why did they afford to use the gold for this, and from where had they taken a large part of it :mrgreen:

~Ovidius

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Ebusitanus
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Post by Ebusitanus » 10 Sep 2002 14:39

I guess Victor that there will be always good excuses to be found what is still base back stabbing on your ally. War is though and units have to be sacrificed, trucks requesitioned, cowards shot, etc...This didn´t happen only to the poor Romanians but to countles German units itself. The aim is to win a war, no? Not to do Versallesque courtships and elevate the unpractical. Fact is that Romania went into the assault on Soviet Russia hand in hand with Germany for good or for worse. Clear it is that Romania fully expected rewards for its commitment to the Axis and would have gotten it had things turned out differently.
You can´t hardly reproach the Germans trying to stop the King from deserting to the Soviets...60.000 German prisoners and casualties give a pretty good reason as why you don´t want the whole front breaking down around you. To say that Germans had free way to leave the country sounds like a bad joke, surely the Soviets would have waited for the Germans to finish this orderly retreat to the next border.
But whatever Victor...If it makes you happy to dress up treachery with heroic medals and fancy liberty uniforms then so be it.

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Arkady
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Post by Arkady » 10 Sep 2002 15:07

Ebusitanus: From your point of view they had stay with Germans to the bitter end? But why? If they had a chance to save citizens and there was a difference between treatment of people on conquered area (e.g. East Prussia) and liberated area (e.g. Poland) from russian soldiers. And they gained some land from Hungary.....that it's a pragmatic policy.

Arkady

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Ebusitanus
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Post by Ebusitanus » 10 Sep 2002 15:33

Don´t get me wrong Arkady, Sure thing that Romania acted acording to the current most viable alternative. In times of defeat and desperation people and nations tend to take to extreme measures. What I take exception to, is this justification of this, undoubtful treachery, upon the German arms, with wage past afronts in Stalingrad, Krim, abusive charging of weapondry, truck requestions, command structure of German Army groups or shooting of coward elements. Just state it like you just did Arkady, but don´t try to find honorable excuses for this act..like the Germans didn´t leave them any other alternative than to switch sides and declare war. How can any Romaian soldier feel proud of taking that "victory" picture in Wiena?

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Arkady
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Post by Arkady » 10 Sep 2002 15:51

Ok, this is true.
Maybe they don't feel proud....maybe they was only happy that they are alive and war ends.

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Victor
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Post by Victor » 10 Sep 2002 15:52

Ebusitanus wrote: I guess Victor that there will be always good excuses to be found what is still base back stabbing on your ally. War is though and units have to be sacrificed, trucks requesitioned, cowards shot, etc...This didn´t happen only to the poor Romanians but to countles German units itself.
What I meant through the examples I gave you was to show that the Germans were not really acting as allies, but more like masters and those special relationships among soldiers that you mentioned were not so warm. I do not recall of any event when a non-German commander shot German soldiers (without a trial), or requisitioned German trucks or other goods for their own men etc, etc. You do not know the drama of the Romanian soldiers at Stalingrad. So please cut the rhetoric BS.
Ebusitanus wrote: Fact is that Romania went into the assault on Soviet Russia hand in hand with Germany for good or for worse. Clear it is that Romania fully expected rewards for its commitment to the Axis and would have gotten it had things turned out differently.
Yeah, but why fight to the death when you have no interest to? The war was already lost. Only a madman hid very well in his bunker would not see this. Or maybe another guy in his Festung? :roll:
Ebusitanus wrote: You can´t hardly reproach the Germans trying to stop the King from deserting to the Soviets...60.000 German prisoners and casualties give a pretty good reason as why you don´t want the whole front breaking down around you.
I am not reproaching anything. You are the one who is doing it, by saying that the fact that the Romanian army fought against Germany was morally wrong. I was just pointing out the fact that the Germans were not going to leave the precious oil fields in the hands of the Allies and tried to secure them. It was Romanian territory and property. Was or was not the Romanian army entitled to fight to defend its territory against the Wehrmacht?
Ebusitanus wrote: To say that Germans had free way to leave the country sounds like a bad joke, surely the Soviets would have waited for the Germans to finish this orderly retreat to the next border.
The German units behind the front were initially allowed to retreat and some did. But after hostilities started with the Germans things were different. Anyway the Soviets reached Bucharest on 30 August. They would have had enough time to pull back. The German units on the front are a different story. Some of them managed to retreat to Transylvania.
Ebusitanus wrote: But whatever Victor...If it makes you happy to dress up treachery with heroic medals and fancy liberty uniforms then so be it.
The liberation term appears in many memoirs and interviews with veterans. They thought that they fought to liberate NW Transylvania. They did not think themselves as guilty of treason.

Other things make me happy. I am not that simple minded. I am having this discussion with you because I thought that people should know more than the usual myths. I was not trying to convince you of anything. Frankly I couldn't care less of what you or others think. I believe that to form an opinion on something you need to view the whole picture, not only pieces of it and generally try to respect this. This is why I presented facts which I am sure many were not familiar with.

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