The Hungarian Airforce in action against the USAAF

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Geppistoly Katona
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The Hungarian Airforce in action against the USAAF

#1

Post by Geppistoly Katona » 28 Mar 2002, 06:37

I know the formations of Hungarian fighters and squadrons that faced the US airforce in WWII, but i still don't know all of the US Squadrons and divisions and such that faced the Hungarian Airforce...Can anyone tell me the USA AIFROCE FORMATIONS???
Ismétlopuska ember-Ferfi

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Cezarprimo
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Hungarian air force.

#2

Post by Cezarprimo » 28 Mar 2002, 10:48

Geppistoly Katona, can you tell us a little bit more about the clashes between the Hungarian air force and USAAF in WWII. Like casualties, planes involved, etc.


IAR80
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re

#3

Post by IAR80 » 28 Mar 2002, 14:08

I honestly doubt that the americans really wanted to engage the hungarian airforce when the fields of Ploiesti was a juicy and more accesible target. Now air combat over USSR would be interesting to know.

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DenesBernad
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USAAF formations that attacked Hungary in W.W. 2

#4

Post by DenesBernad » 28 Mar 2002, 17:38

The main USAAF unit targeting Hungary in W.W. 2 was the 15th Army Air Force (AAF). The main RAF night bomber/mine layer unit was the 205 Group.
If you are interested in specific USAAF Wings, Groups or Squadrons, let me know that date, so I can check the units that took part in action.

'IAR80', what do you mean by Ploiesti being more 'juicy and accessible' target than any other target in Hungary?

Dénes
Last edited by DenesBernad on 28 Mar 2002, 22:14, edited 1 time in total.

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Victor
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#5

Post by Victor » 28 Mar 2002, 22:07

IAR80, I suggest you don't get into any arguments about WWII air forces with Denes bernad, since you can't possibly win! In case you do not know, Mr. Bernad is a well known and informed aviation-historian.
I can post for you, if you want the 15th Airforce raids in Hungary.

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USAF1986
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#6

Post by USAF1986 » 29 Mar 2002, 04:03

In the March 2001 issue of “Aviation History” magazine there is an article titled “P-38s vs. Pumas: Dogfight over Hungary” by Jon Guttman. The article recounts the “wild, circling free-for-all” of P-38J Lightnings of the USAAF 49th Fighter Squadron (14th Fighter Group) against the Me-109Gs of the Hungarian 101st Fighter Group (later Regiment) “Pumas” on 14 June 1944. The P-38s were escorting B-17s and B-24s on a raid on the oil refineries near Budapest and the nitrogen works at Pét. The 32 Me-109Gs of the Hungarian 101st Fighter Group led by Captain Gyula Horváth took off to intercept the bombers. The Hungarians were also joined by 80 German Me-109s and Fw-190s on the intercept. During the ensuing engagement, the Hungarians claimed nine P-38s shot down (only five actually downed) for the loss of only one of their own aircraft shot down (Second Lieutenant Gyula Király--KIA). Two other Hungarian ME-109Gs were severely damaged in the dogfight and made forced landings but the pilots survived.

The author also mentions that a pilot named Bélavári of the “Pumas” was KIA on 12 October 1944 by P-51s of the USAAF 332d Fighter Group.

There is also another article by Guttman, “The Deadliest Puma” in the September 2000 issue of “Aviation History” magazine. This article details the wartime career of Hungary’s leading ace Dezsö Szentgyörgyi…interesting reading!

Shawn

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#7

Post by Dan » 29 Mar 2002, 04:23

Now you've really got me interested. I was vice president of the fencing team in my University, so I naturally have quite a respect for Hungarians.

Can any of you give numbers? How many Americans did Hungarians shoot down and visa versa?

Thanks

P.S. any to the point internet articles would be nice.

Dan

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DenesBernad
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USAAF airplanes lost over pre-war Hungary

#8

Post by DenesBernad » 29 Mar 2002, 04:45

American statistics mention that between April 1943 and March 1944, a grand total of 3048 B-17s and 6371 B-24s (no info on fighters) performed combat missions over Hungary's per-war territory. They dropped more than 26000 metric tonnes of bomb on Hungarian targets.
During these actions at least 365 USAAF warplanes crashed in the territory of pre-war Hungary to all causes, with over 2000 casualities (660+ KIA).
If we would count wartime Hungary's larger territories, the above numbers would be obviously larger.

As for the results obtained by Hungarian fighter pilots during W.W. 2, although I don't have a specific break down on theatres of war, there were over 500 air victory claims confirmed to them.

Dénes

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USAF1986
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#9

Post by USAF1986 » 29 Mar 2002, 05:48

Here are some details on Dezsö Szentgyörgyi, Hungary's leading fighter ace of WWII. This is from the Jon Guttman article, "The Deadliset Puma, I previously mentioned.

7 August 1942: Accidentally damaged a German He-111 and forced it down (not counted!) while flying an Italian Re 2000 fighter (unit converted to Me-109s in early 1943)

1. 26 June 1943: Russian Yak-1
2. 7 July 1943: Russian La-5
3. 3 August 1943: Russian Il-2
4. 3 August 1943: Russian La-5
5. 4 August 1943: Russian Pe-2
6. 4 August 1943: Russian La-5
7. 14 June 1944: U.S. P-38
8. 27 June 1944: U.S. P-51B
9. 2 July 1944: U.S. B-24
10. 16 July 1944: B-24H
11. 27 July 1944: U.S. B-24
12. 22 August 1944: U.S. B-24
13. 13 November 1944: Russian Yak-9
14. 16 November 1944: Russian Sturmovik
15. 8 December 1944: Russian Yak-9
16. 20 December 1944: Russian Il-2
17. 5 January 1945: Russian La-5
18. 8 January 1945: Russian La-5
19. 18 January 1945: Russian Il-2
20. 18 January 1945: Russian La-5
21. 28 January 1945: Russian Yak-9
22. 30 January 1945: Russian Yak-9
23. 12 February 1945: Russian Il-2
24. 9 March 1945: Russian La-5FN
25. 11 March 1945: Russian La-5FN
26. 19 March 1945: Russian Il-2
27. 20 March 1945: Russian Il-2
28. 23 March 1945: Russian Yak-3
29. 16 April 1945: Russian Yak-9

NOTE: Some sources credit Szentgyörgyi with 32 kills (probales included...maybe?).

On 4 March 1945, the Hungarian 101st Fighter Regiment surrendered to the U.S. 206th Engineer Battalion.

After being released from POW captivity, Szentgyörgyi returned to Hungary in 1946 and became an airline pilot. In 1950 he was arrested and imprisoned by the Communists for "espionage and conspiracy against the government." After spending six years in prison, he was acquitted and released. He returned to flying in the Hungarian airline but was killed in a flying accident on 28 August 1971 near Copenhagen, Denmark.

Regards,
Shawn

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Andy H
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#10

Post by Andy H » 29 Mar 2002, 22:28

Hans Werner Neulen's book "In The Skies of Europe" Air Forces Allied to the Luftwaffe 1939-1945, may be of some use!

Hi Ho Silver Away :D

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Victor
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#11

Post by Victor » 30 Mar 2002, 18:39

Here is a list USAAF fighter units operating over Hungary:
2nd Fighter Squadron
4th Fighter Squadron
5th Fighter Squadron
27th Fighter Squadron
37th Fighter Squadron
49th Fighter Squadron
71st Fighter Squadron
82nd Fighter Squadron
94th Fighter Squadron
95th Fighter Squadron
96th Fighter Squadron
97th Fighter Squadron
99th Fighter Squadron
100th Fighter Squadron
301st Fighter Squadron
302nd Fighter Squadron
307th Fighter Squadron
308th Fighter Squadron
309th Fighter Squadron
317th Fighter Squadron
318th Fighter Squadron
319th Fighter Squadron
334th Fighter Squadron
335th Fighter Squadron
336th Fighter Squadron
486th Fighter Squadron

I don’t know if the list is complete, so guys feel free to add more.

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Arpad88
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hmm Hungary not a strategic target?

#12

Post by Arpad88 » 01 Apr 2002, 13:24

Hello.

Correct me if im wrong people, if history may correct me?

Hungary unfoutunately has the destinct previlage as the only country in Central Europe to being bombed by all sides! America, UK, Russia (mid 44) and Germany as well! As for Hungary not being as a strategic target
like Romania Pioresti oil reserves, you are wrong. Buda-Pest had a Messerschmidtt factor/ies and inumerable ball bearing and iron-works facilities as well as a major choke point-supply route for vehicles to and from Austria/ Germany to the Russian Front. So one might say it was a target rich environment.

As for who bombed us Im not quite sure on the aerial commands/wings which took part (a little discussed but vital part of the air war over Europe). I generally only specialise in the ground war aspect, but im equally interested what was happening in the time of my Grandfather and his comrades in dug in at Debrecen in 44, wondering who was going to bomb them next!

Cheers
Karl

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#13

Post by Rommel » 01 Apr 2002, 15:24

as I remember the Romanian Arny fought in frint of Debrecen...so it was quite a simple guess for your grandfather...

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DenesBernad
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RE: Hungary not a strategic target?

#14

Post by DenesBernad » 01 Apr 2002, 17:58

Two corrections:
To Árpád: besides Hungary, Rumania and Slovakia were also bombed by all major European combattants: USAAF, RAF, USSR and Germany.
I agree with you, Hungary was a major target for Allied bombing; however, to quell oil production was still paramount in view of the USAAF. In this respect, Rumania was more important than Hungary (until end of Aug. '44).
To Rommel: at Debrecen, Rumanian troops fought alongside Soviets, the latter being in majority. Besides the Soviets, Debrecen was also bombed and strafed by American warplanes.

Dénes

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