Cetniks and Ustashe tie in with war in 1990's

rob · Post by **rob** » 12 Sep 2002 23:53

I'm reading a great book about an awful topic, "My war gone by, I miss it so" by Antony Loyd, a British journalist photographer. the book is about the Bosnian war in 1993-1996, but he mentions how the different sides used terms and symbols from WWII. I'm wondering if anyone knows of actual leaders on the various sides in the 1990's war who did anything in WWII, when of course they would have been very young.

alsaco · Post by **alsaco** » 13 Sep 2002 15:39

In fact, the yougoslavian system, with Tito and the partizan ruling in force since 1945 had eliminated all opponents, Chetniks linked with the King, Oustachis from Pavelitch and Croatia, local serb militia from Neditch government, moslems from Handchar SS.

I have never met anybody in Yugoslavija who was not a member of the fraternity of the partizan, or too young to have registered as former partizan.

The reapparence of these categories during the 1990 war was pure poetry, linked with the tribal thinkings prohibited during Tito times. Opponents in Croatia said sometimes they were Oustachis, but the upper officers were partizan, and communists.
Anyway, all posts having been designated among party members, only communists could, at the beginning of the war, take position for or against Belgrad and the army.

Edwin Meinsma · Post by **Edwin Meinsma** » 13 Sep 2002 16:00

President Izetbegovic (Bosnia-Herzegowina) was as far as I know a recruiter of the Waffen Division der SS 'Handschar', a muslim volunteer unit.

Tudjman (Croatia) was in jail during the war.

Regards,
Edwin Meinsma

cybercat · Post by **cybercat** » 13 Nov 2002 01:06

Edwin. About Izetbegovic there's nothing proved although Serbian sources say that he served the Abwehr as a recruiter. He was a leading member of "Mladi Muslimani" (The Young Muslims) prior, during and after WWII and indeed was put in gaol in the late '40s because of his membership. The fact the Mladi Muslimani were close to the Mufti of Jerusalem indicates that he was probably involved with recruitment for 13th SS Handzar Division.

As for Franjo Tudjman - you are absolutely and totally wrong. During WWII Tudjman was a partisan officer and after the war he was a General in UDBA (Yugoslav Military Intelligence). He came from Zagorija the same area as Josip Broz Tito. However, during the late 1960s he was stripped of his rank and thrown out of the Communist Party because he had started to express nationalist views in relation to Croatia's relationship within the Yugoslav Federation. He was gaoled in the early 1970s (probably around 1973/4) after the "Croatian Spring" when many Croatian dissidents were gaoled including Dobroslav Paraga who later went on to become leader of HSP (Hrvatska Stranka Prava - The Party for Croatian Rights) after the fall of communism and who became Tudjman's political opponent during the time of the Croatian war of independence.

I actually did meet a "real" Ustasa in Bosnia in Zenica in 1992. He survived the death marches and imprisonment after the war and was political officer for HOS (Hrvatske Odbrane Snage - the military wing of HSP) in that city. HOS at that time came under the umbrella of Armija RBiH and not HVO which was the military wing of Tudjman's HDZ. Regretfully I never got to know his real name as everybody just called him "Dedo" (Grandad). He did tell me however a little of what happened to him. In 1945 he was captured by the Partisans in Vojvodina (now Northwestern Serbia) after he ran out of ammunition.
He was a proud old chap and he wore his Croatian Legion ribbon on his uniform in 1992. Where he is today I have no idea but I've heard that his daughter now lives in Sarajevo having divorced her husband in Zenica.
I hope that he's still alive as although I am personally appalled at what some of the ustasa did in WWII, I found him to be a gentleman of the old school. Unfortunately, I didn't meet too many of them in Bosnia.

Chetnik · Post by **Chetnik** » 13 Nov 2002 01:46

Actually I think these various paramilitary units were led by guys who were far too young to have fought in WWII... Unfortunately the people in the Balkans today are not the same type of people as their grandparents were during WWII.

cybercat · Post by **cybercat** » 13 Nov 2002 01:59

Hmmm. I didn't say anything about leaders of paramilitary units in the bosnian war. They obviously learnt their butchery from their grandparants As for the people, they are no better or worse than their forebears in WWII. One question though why the nickname Chetnik? Surely you cant be proud of what they did....

Chetnik · Post by **Chetnik** » 14 Nov 2002 00:23

Because my grandfather was one. And no he did not collaborate with the Nazis, before you ask.

Wolffen · Post by **Wolffen** » 14 Nov 2002 17:11

LoL this is so funny

alsaco

I have never met anybody in Yugoslavija who was not a member of the fraternity of the partizan, or too young to have registered as former partizan

Look a bit harder and in different circles you will find plenty of ex-axis

alsaco

linked with the tribal thinkings prohibited during Tito times

What??? You saying that Balkan nations are tribes????

And For Chetnik there are not even worth mentioning there did not play any major role . They did not even know what they were 5mim they were partisans, next 5 mints there were Nazis. They had not combat achievements and every one hated them even partisans cos they were worst soldiers then Italians. They heard partisans or Germans coming deepening on the time of day

they ran like crazy.

Chetnik · Post by **Chetnik** » 15 Nov 2002 01:43

They fought bravely. They were always up against someone who was superior in both numbers and equipment so it's no surprise they didn't have any major well known victories like the Partizans... But they did what they could and they are known for saving many American fighter pilots downed over the Balkans. Unfortunately by the middle of the war soldiers were deserting the Chetniks and joining the Partizans.

Napoli · Post by **Napoli** » 15 Nov 2002 02:23

Wolfen, you trying to tell me that Vietnam didnt use the same hit and run tactics to hold of the American forces for years? Had they gone face to face they would have been anilated just like the chetniks.
As for the great croat cause, we got plenty of you guys here so heard enough crap coming out of their mouths not to even bother taking any notice of 'em. We Italians and Serbs got balls, and you blokes just run and hide from my experience:lol:

cybercat · Post by **cybercat** » 15 Nov 2002 04:05

I seem to recall that in 1995 the Serbs were doing all the running after Croatia launched operation "Oluja" (Storm) in the Serb occupied areas of Croatia. Meanwhile on the Bosnian side of Krajina, I and my Bosnian colleagues were chasing chetniks for their lives. Hmmm it seems that the big brave Serbs truly got their tactics and strategy from you Italians....LOL

Is it true that Italian tanks have 4 gears - 1 forward and 3 reverse? Just asking........

Napoli · Post by **Napoli** » 15 Nov 2002 04:53

What running for their lives?
Your talking about when the Serb minority who wernt represented by their own country. They pulled out years ago due to sanctions so get your facts right. Like chetnik said earlier (which was deleted but exactly the way it was by my own memory) the Main Serb army had already taken most of Croatia in 2 weeks but was forced to pull back, no airforce to be flown etc etc.
To say Bosnian Serbs were the same army as Serbia's is more like considering Yugoslavia to be part of Russia!! ha ha!!
As for your theories on Italian tanks, well yes your right but so what? If we had England's tanks during Nth Africa, we would have gained twice as much area as the Commonwealth without even needing the Germans. Who do you think the general infantry were in that theatre? Germans?? They supported us with their armaments but not much in the way of troops. Might want to do some reading up there.

cybercat · Post by **cybercat** » 15 Nov 2002 06:37

Not true I'm afraid. The Croats held the Serbs (JNA and Cetniks) at bay in 1991/1992 and the lines went static. The problem was for them was that at Vukovar there were too many JNA casualties and desertions. They also lost a great deal of armour on the road between Vukovar and Borovo Selo. They only got Vukovar because Tudjman and Milosevic made a deal. If the Croats had been better armed in 1991 then the Chetniks aided by the JNA wouldn't have taken the 30% of Croatia that they took.

In '95 200,000 Serbs had to leg it from Krajina. I don't know what news you get in Australia but it seems that the media there must be Serb-dominated if this is where you got your data from. The Chetniks were lucky that the Yanks stepped in and got all the parties to go to Dayton. My brigade was just a few kilometres from Banja Luka at the time of the ceasefire and we were not meeting any resistance after Sanski Most fell - that took us just a day and a half.

I met a British Royal Marine Captain serving with UNPROFOR after we returned from Krajina and he told me that he'd just returned from Banja Luka and that the Serbs "were shitting themselves" - his words not mine. Without Banja Luka there couldn't be a Republika Srpska as there were no major cities other than Banja Luka left in Serbian hands after our offensive. I suggest you get your facts straight on the Bosnian and Croatian wars. As for so-called brave Serb soldiers - I've shit 'em mate....In Krajina they spent more time executing Muslim and Croat pensioners as they pulled out rather than standing and fighting us. We found the bodies as we advanced as well as the mass graves from '92 - we weren't going to take any prisoners after that and every Chetnik and Russian volunteer we captured was executed on the spot. some of the Russians were actually crucified by some of our more enthusiastic lads.

If as you said there weren't any Serbs in Croatia when Operation Storm took place how come there are several Croatian Generals indicted by the UN Warcrimes Tribunal in the Hague for "Ethnically Cleansing" Knin and the Krajina of the Serb population. You guys (Chetniks and fellow travellers) had better make up your minds about what really happened.
Were there Serbs there or not? I think the UN Tribunal would be better placed to make a judgement than you lot. The truth is the Chetniks with their superior numbers of heavy weapons can't stomach the fact that they got their arses well and truly tanned by the Croats and the Bosnians and had to be bailed out by President Clinton.

As for Italian troops - I spent 3 weeks in Italy on a joint exercise with the Italian Army in the '80s and I can honestly say that the open homosexuality of Italian soldiers made me puke. Being as I am a Brit I've never seen soldiers walking around a barracks before holding hands...

Napoli · Post by **Napoli** » 15 Nov 2002 08:46

Mmm, no wonder my old man aint been back since 1951, think a few things have changed down that way.
As for the whole Yugoslav war, still is a bit of a mish-mash in info. Why would you, a Brit want to fight over there? What was your interest?
Dont worry, I'm actually more alinged with croatia, just taking the piss out of Wolfen for his Italian comment which to be honest I dont really care about as my aligences are to Australia anyway.

We did have alot of young Croats from my city volenteer for duty over there, said it was pretty horific and came back changed men with alot of atrocity stories.

cybercat · Post by **cybercat** » 15 Nov 2002 14:36

I was working as a software engineer contractor in Zagreb when the war broke out. I happened to volunteer for service with my friends and neighbours. I wasn't a member of any of the so-called "International Units". I only came across Australians once. That was in Ivanic Grad 15km behind the main frontline in that area at Sisak. I was an instructor training recce soldiers and the Aussies were also training in the area. I never saw Aussies on the frontline in Eastern Slavonia. Where they were deployed I have no idea but I suspect that it was probably around Gospic or Split - it's nice and sunny there.

My website has more info: http://www.jebiga.co.uk

I hope to post some personal pictures from the Bosnian conflict there.

By the way you really got me wound up for a minute there - hmm better take a chill-pill!