Hi All,
Does anyone have any information on how to turn a demiled gun into a propane or blank firing one, or knows anyone who does it? Any help is greatly appreciated.
Best regards,
John
Propane/Blank Firing Guns
just do a google search for propane guns
Last edited by pzrwest on 12 Sep 2007, 22:53, edited 1 time in total.
I did. I couldn't find anything about it. I was just wondering if that was possible to do with a gun that's been deactivated to government standards. The specific guns I'm thinking of are either the Madsen LMG, or the Schwarzlose HMG on ima-usa.com.pzrwest wrote:just do a google search for propane guns
I'm going to be calling the state police hopfully tomarrow about the laws. Knowing Connecticut gun laws, a blank gun will probably be illegal, so I guess a propane gun is best.
John
I've seen pics and a video clip on the Pssst forum of an under the barrel gas unit. They used a dewatted mg34 or 42 with the propane gas unit mounted under the barrel. But I believe once a weapon is deactivated it is illegal to alter or modify it. So again as was said it would be best to contact your state and federal regulations before you attempt to do anything, and get what ever permissions you require on paper. Firearm violations can carry some heavy penalties
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Russianboy
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I checked with the state police, and they had no idea. So the Had me contact the ATF, and they want me to send them a letter describing exactly what I want to do to the gun.
The seperate tube probably wouldnt work with the Madsen. It's very similar to a bren gun, so the barrel has no cover over it. But that was what I was thinking for the Schwarzlose. I my idea was to run the propane through the water pipe and have that tube connect at the end of the barrel.
The seperate tube probably wouldnt work with the Madsen. It's very similar to a bren gun, so the barrel has no cover over it. But that was what I was thinking for the Schwarzlose. I my idea was to run the propane through the water pipe and have that tube connect at the end of the barrel.
Well the gas guns I have seen online have hoses that connect to the bottom of the pistol grip 2 are required one for propane one for oxygen. Then the componants for making the the thing shoot are housed in the drum magazine. there is a mixer for mixing the fuel to oxygen ratio, the timing circuit for produceing the spark to iginight the gas mixture, a spark plug in the back end of the barrel so I don't think that would all fit inside the madsen. plus a battery is also needed to supply power for the timing/ignition circuit.
go here:
http://www.angelfire.com/wa/fallschirmj ... ticle.html
go here:
http://www.angelfire.com/wa/fallschirmj ... ticle.html
I will start by saying I am not a lawyer and one must do their own research when dealing with machineguns and the NFA. Note that the ATF has not made anything involving machineguns simple; the only way to be 100% certain is to get a letter for the BAFT approving your design. This will usually involve sending the weapon (once they have approved the design) to the BATF for inspection/testing. If you are making a firing version (semi-auto) you must do this. Gas (from my research) is different.
My personal research has led me to the following conclusions. When creating a gas or semi-auto machinegun, the builder starts from one of three places: 1) a demilled machinegun; 2) a machinegun kit with a destroyed receiver; 3) a machinegun kit with a dummy receiver.
COA 1) a demilled machinegun. This is normally a transferable Class III weapon that has been rendered inoperable (normally the barrel is plugged and the barrel is welded to the receiver). Under the NFA this is still a machinegun and owners must follow all regulations pertaining to Class III firearms. The often tossed about phrase ‘once an MG, always an MG’ describes this situation. The only advantage of a demilled weapon over a functional Class III weapon is that the transfer tax is waived during a sale. As a reeenactor, I recommend that people stay away from these weapons. These will get people in trouble unless they are prepared to follow all NFA and state regulations.
COA 2) a kit with a destroyed receiver. The key difference here is that the weapon is no longer a machinegun. As long as the receiver has been destroyed in a manner approved by the ATF, the ‘once an MG, always an MG’ doesn’t apply. The receiver can be reworked as long as it is done in manner that prevents its use as a machinegun. This is the common approach used by those wishing to build a semi-auto version. An example is the German MG series. During assembly, modifications are made such that selected automatic parts can’t be installed. One such modification is that the trigger housing mounting is moved forward preventing the installation of an original automatic trigger system. The important point here is the process followed must never create a machinegun. If it does, it is now a machinegun once again and all the NFA regulations apply. Modify first, then assemble. As I mentioned above, a semi-auto version will require BATF approval of the design BEFORE you start, then BATF inspection/testing after it is assmebled. If you successfully accomplish this, you will be issued a letter by the BATF. If you are following an already approved design for a semi-auto, you need to get a copy of the letter. Note that a blank-firing only version (auto or semi-auto) has the same requirements for approval as a semi-auto version.
COA 3) a kit with a dummy receiver. This is the safest method from a legal standpoint, but requires someone making dummy receivers. The receiver is either designed only for display, or has the combustion chamber built-in for gas. American and German reenactors have the best chance to find this option; us Italians must look at 1) or 2).
I will use my Breda 30 display weapon I have completed (picture is in ‘Lets see those weapons’ under Small Arms) as an example. Because the Breda operates a bit differently from most machineguns, I had to think through the building to insure I didn’t cross the line. I wanted as many of the external parts to function as feasible, but I didn’t care about the internals. I also desired to later convert the Breda to a gas gun. I decided to build the display such that a bolt couldn’t be installed. This would help meet the ATF guidance and leave room for the gas combustion chamber. The receiver had been destroyed using a three cut (four pieces) method approved by the ATF. I inserted a steel tube into the back half of the receiver and welded the two rear receiver pieces together and to the tube. As the bolt must be inserted from the rear, this prevents any bolt from being installed and also destroyed the internal alignment guides for the bolt. Extensive machine work would be needed to drill out the tube. The internal guides, being cast into the receiver, would be nearly impossible to rebuild.
The next step was the front part of the receiver. The Breda bolt is similar in design to an M16 bolt, with multiple locking lugs that engage similar lugs in the breech. What is different is that the bolt doesn’t rotate to lock it into the breech, but the breech itself (which is separate from the barrel) is rotated by a cam to engage the bolt. I decided to do two things to prevent the weapon from ever firing again. The breech would be welded into the receiver and it would be welded in the ‘in battery’ (locked) position. The deep welds of the former affixing the breech to the receiver make it near-impossible to cut free the breech without cutting into the receiver. If done, extensive machine work would be needed to repair the receiver to accept another breech. The latter step (in battery) would prevent a bolt from being inserted into the breech (remember the bolt doesn’t rotate, the breech does). The breech must be in the ‘out-of-battery’ position to accept the bolt; the ‘in-battery’ position doesn’t allow the lugs to line-up to accept the bolt.
The final step I took was to weld-in the breech locking pin space. As the bolt recoils, a spring engages a pin to hold the breech in the correct position for the return of the bolt. Without this pin, the lugs on the breech and bolt won’t align correctly to chamber a round and lock the assembly for firing. The pin was removed and the entire area was fused together, making it nearly impossible to install these parts without extensive machining work.
This is not a weapon and certainly is not a machinegun. To convert the Breda to a gas weapon, I would need to install a combustion chamber into the breech area; run the gas hoses through the ejection port, decide where to carry the electronics, and figure out a trigger system. The German MG in the web link places the electronics in the ammo drum (great idea). I would like to place the electronics for my Breda in the magazine assembly, but I am not sure whether there is enough room. The trigger presents problems, because the Breda trigger is at the rear of the receiver and doesn’t allow a way to activate a switch or such. I am still killing brain cells on this. So right now it is a beautiful display weapon and adds greatly to my Italian display.
If any will be at Rockford next weekend, look us up. Our small Italian group will have a great display!
Jeff
My personal research has led me to the following conclusions. When creating a gas or semi-auto machinegun, the builder starts from one of three places: 1) a demilled machinegun; 2) a machinegun kit with a destroyed receiver; 3) a machinegun kit with a dummy receiver.
COA 1) a demilled machinegun. This is normally a transferable Class III weapon that has been rendered inoperable (normally the barrel is plugged and the barrel is welded to the receiver). Under the NFA this is still a machinegun and owners must follow all regulations pertaining to Class III firearms. The often tossed about phrase ‘once an MG, always an MG’ describes this situation. The only advantage of a demilled weapon over a functional Class III weapon is that the transfer tax is waived during a sale. As a reeenactor, I recommend that people stay away from these weapons. These will get people in trouble unless they are prepared to follow all NFA and state regulations.
COA 2) a kit with a destroyed receiver. The key difference here is that the weapon is no longer a machinegun. As long as the receiver has been destroyed in a manner approved by the ATF, the ‘once an MG, always an MG’ doesn’t apply. The receiver can be reworked as long as it is done in manner that prevents its use as a machinegun. This is the common approach used by those wishing to build a semi-auto version. An example is the German MG series. During assembly, modifications are made such that selected automatic parts can’t be installed. One such modification is that the trigger housing mounting is moved forward preventing the installation of an original automatic trigger system. The important point here is the process followed must never create a machinegun. If it does, it is now a machinegun once again and all the NFA regulations apply. Modify first, then assemble. As I mentioned above, a semi-auto version will require BATF approval of the design BEFORE you start, then BATF inspection/testing after it is assmebled. If you successfully accomplish this, you will be issued a letter by the BATF. If you are following an already approved design for a semi-auto, you need to get a copy of the letter. Note that a blank-firing only version (auto or semi-auto) has the same requirements for approval as a semi-auto version.
COA 3) a kit with a dummy receiver. This is the safest method from a legal standpoint, but requires someone making dummy receivers. The receiver is either designed only for display, or has the combustion chamber built-in for gas. American and German reenactors have the best chance to find this option; us Italians must look at 1) or 2).
I will use my Breda 30 display weapon I have completed (picture is in ‘Lets see those weapons’ under Small Arms) as an example. Because the Breda operates a bit differently from most machineguns, I had to think through the building to insure I didn’t cross the line. I wanted as many of the external parts to function as feasible, but I didn’t care about the internals. I also desired to later convert the Breda to a gas gun. I decided to build the display such that a bolt couldn’t be installed. This would help meet the ATF guidance and leave room for the gas combustion chamber. The receiver had been destroyed using a three cut (four pieces) method approved by the ATF. I inserted a steel tube into the back half of the receiver and welded the two rear receiver pieces together and to the tube. As the bolt must be inserted from the rear, this prevents any bolt from being installed and also destroyed the internal alignment guides for the bolt. Extensive machine work would be needed to drill out the tube. The internal guides, being cast into the receiver, would be nearly impossible to rebuild.
The next step was the front part of the receiver. The Breda bolt is similar in design to an M16 bolt, with multiple locking lugs that engage similar lugs in the breech. What is different is that the bolt doesn’t rotate to lock it into the breech, but the breech itself (which is separate from the barrel) is rotated by a cam to engage the bolt. I decided to do two things to prevent the weapon from ever firing again. The breech would be welded into the receiver and it would be welded in the ‘in battery’ (locked) position. The deep welds of the former affixing the breech to the receiver make it near-impossible to cut free the breech without cutting into the receiver. If done, extensive machine work would be needed to repair the receiver to accept another breech. The latter step (in battery) would prevent a bolt from being inserted into the breech (remember the bolt doesn’t rotate, the breech does). The breech must be in the ‘out-of-battery’ position to accept the bolt; the ‘in-battery’ position doesn’t allow the lugs to line-up to accept the bolt.
The final step I took was to weld-in the breech locking pin space. As the bolt recoils, a spring engages a pin to hold the breech in the correct position for the return of the bolt. Without this pin, the lugs on the breech and bolt won’t align correctly to chamber a round and lock the assembly for firing. The pin was removed and the entire area was fused together, making it nearly impossible to install these parts without extensive machining work.
This is not a weapon and certainly is not a machinegun. To convert the Breda to a gas weapon, I would need to install a combustion chamber into the breech area; run the gas hoses through the ejection port, decide where to carry the electronics, and figure out a trigger system. The German MG in the web link places the electronics in the ammo drum (great idea). I would like to place the electronics for my Breda in the magazine assembly, but I am not sure whether there is enough room. The trigger presents problems, because the Breda trigger is at the rear of the receiver and doesn’t allow a way to activate a switch or such. I am still killing brain cells on this. So right now it is a beautiful display weapon and adds greatly to my Italian display.
If any will be at Rockford next weekend, look us up. Our small Italian group will have a great display!
Jeff