Poles before 1939

[Gulo]

Any further immigration of non-citizens is to be prevented.

Fortunately, it did not concern Hans-Joachim Marseille and Otto Skorzeny...

[Lamarck]

Fortunately, it did not concern Hans-Joachim Marseille and Otto Skorzeny...

Those two people are not very good examples.

Hans-Joachim Marseille was born in Germany in 1908. His paternal side had distant French ancestry but he was considered a German.

Otto Skorzeny was an Austrian born in 1908. His surname is of Polish origin but he didn't have any remote Polish ancestors. He joined the Austrian Nazi Party in 1931 and never moved to Germany. However, Austria was annexed to the Third Reich in 1938.

There were lots of Nazis with non-German ancestry. It's also important to note the distinction of the points made in the Nazi 25-Point Programme and the Nuremberg Laws. According to the former, the Nazis wanted no more immigration of non-Germans since 1914 and the deportation of all non-Germans who moved in Germany prior to that date. According to the latter, all non-Jewish Europeans were considered to be of "related blood" and were thus eligible for Reich Citizenship. Even defining 'German' was problematic for the Nazis.

[Gulo]

I meant that the Germans were fortunate that earlier Nazi-type people did not come to power. If that were the case, even the ancestors of these two soldiers could not come. On the other hand, Hitler was enchanted by descriptions of ancient Germans who, according to Roman chroniclers, kept clean blood for the longest time and they were strong. Of course, Hitler did not fit this picture, Himmler, Goebbels too, Goering maybe ... before it got fat. When I read memories of fights in Poland, there were also many Polish names on the German side. Thus, the Nazis had a problem with their ideology.
PS
Hans-Joachim Marseille also thought that this ideology was sick, but he felt he had to fight. At least he used some fighting rules. Skorzeny is actually another type, megalomaniac.

[Lamarck]

I meant that the Germans were fortunate that earlier Nazi-type people did not come to power. If that were the case, even the ancestors of these two soldiers could not come. On the other hand, Hitler was enchanted by descriptions of ancient Germans who, according to Roman chroniclers, kept clean blood for the longest time and they were strong. Of course, Hitler did not fit this picture, Himmler, Goebbels too, Goering maybe ... before it got fat. When I read memories of fights in Poland, there were also many Polish names on the German side. Thus, the Nazis had a problem with their ideology.
PS
Hans-Joachim Marseille also thought that this ideology was sick, but he felt he had to fight. At least he used some fighting rules. Skorzeny is actually another type, megalomaniac.

Hitler studied the racial science that was published during his era and was well aware that Germans were as racially mixed as any other European ethnic groups. He knew that many people in certain parts of Austria (mostly Czech) and Germany (mostly Polish) had Slavic ancestry. I don't think the Nazis had any problems with Nordic Poles but rather that they regarded Poles as being more predominantly East Baltic which was regarded as inferior to Nordic. The Nazis downplayed their high regard for the Nordic race during the 1920s.

The race laws, known as the Nuremberg Laws, which were introduced in 1935 never mentioned any racial type but rather the term "German or related blood ("artverwandtes Blut")" which was never completely defined but it did include all non-Jewish European peoples so Poles were technically eligible for Reich citizenship.

"A member of any minority group demonstrates his ability to serve the German Reich when, without surrendering membership in his own specific Volk group, he loyally carries out his civil duties to the Reich, such as service in the armed forces, etc. Reich citizenship is, therefore, open to racially related groups living in Germany, such as Poles, Danes, and others. It is an altogether different matter with German nationals of alien blood and race. They do not fulfill the blood prerequisites for Reich citizenship. The Jews, who constitute an alien body among all European peoples, are especially characterized by racial foreignness. Jews, therefore, cannot be seen as being fit for service to the German Volk and Reich. Hence, they must necessarily remain excluded from Reich citizenship."

Sources: Anson Rabinbach, Sander L. Gilman, The Third Reich Sourcebook, p. 214 and Henry Friedlander, The Origins of Nazi Genocide: From Euthanasia to the Final Solution, p. 25.

However, an interesting document regarding the Danes and Poles is the Second Execution Order to the Law on the Hitler Youth ("Youth Service Regulation") (March 25, 1939):

"§ 6
German Subjects of Non-German National Origin
(1) Juveniles of German citizenship, whose parents or father belong according to their own statement to the Danish or Polish ethnic groups, are to be exempted from membership in the Hitler Youth on request of those who are charged with their care. If several persons have the right and duty to care for the juvenile person, and not everyone of them makes the request, the juvenile may be exempted from membership in the Hitler Youth on request of those who are charged with their care, if the mother belongs according to her own statement to the Danish or Polish racial groups; they are to be exempted if the guardian agrees to the request."

http://germanhistorydocs.ghi-dc.org/doc ... ge_id=2377

The Nazis were certainly aware that a lot of Germans had Polish ancestry. Two prominent Nazis Bach-Zelewski and Manstein had Polish ancestry. In certain areas of Germany, there were also areas that were highly German-Polish mixed. Sorbs, Gorals, Wends, etc were all considered to be suitable for Germanization.

Lots of German soldiers had Polish ancestry, it was no secret. I don't think there was any kind of discrimination against them by the Nazis. The Ahnenpaß which was introduced in 1933 at the beginning of the Third Reich stated Aryans “wherever they might live in the world” Aryans were "e.g ein Engländer oder Schwede, ein Franzose oder Tscheche, ein Pole oder Italiener" ("an Englishman or Swede, a Frenchman or a Czech, a Pole or an Italian"). The Nazis also stated in 1934 "the non-Jewish members of all European Volk are Aryans". (Source Eric Ehrenreich, The Nazi Ancestral Proof: Genealogy, Racial Science, and the Final Solution, p. 10) However, after the war began they tried their best to separate Germans and Poles. Even the cases when German-Polish marriages happened, they were not registered. The Nazis hoped to eradicate all Polishness. My main question that made me initiate this topic was whether or not the Nazis discriminated against Poles between 1933-39. The way the Nazis treated the Poles before 1939 and after the war began is highly hypocritical on political and racial ideologies. The Nazis seemed to have been quite ambivalent when it came to the Poles because even during the war Poles were placed on the "Aryan" side separate from the Jews and when Germans and Poles had sexual relations there were exceptions made for Poles who were considered to be racially fit enough because they were Nordic enough. Himmler also went out of his way to try and find as many Poles who were considered racially acceptable to be Germanized.

There were a lot of people who served for the Germans during WW2 and were either indifferent or totally against Nazi policies. I don't think I would go as far as to call Skorzeny a "megalomaniac," I have read the books Skorzeny: "The Most Dangerous Man in Europe" and My Commando Operations: The Memoirs of Hitler's Most Daring Commando. But anyway, this is for a different thread.

[wm]

"A member of any minority group demonstrates his ability to serve the German Reich when, without surrendering membership in his own specific Volk group, he loyally carries out his civil duties to the Reich, such as service in the armed forces, etc. Reich citizenship is, therefore, open to racially related groups living in Germany, such as Poles, Danes, and others.

That excerpt is quite informative, I've seen similar in pre-war Polish press.

Juveniles of German citizenship, whose parents or father belong according to their own statement to the Danish or Polish ethnic groups, are to be exempted from membership in the Hitler Youth on request of those who are charged with their care. If several persons have the right and duty to care for the juvenile person, and not everyone of them makes the request, the juvenile may be exempted from membership in the Hitler Youth on request of those who are charged with their care, if the mother belongs according to her own statement to the Danish or Polish racial groups; they are to be exempted if the guardian agrees to the request."

The Polish minority in Germany actually demanded to be exempt from such mandatory services, with various degree of success.

The way the Nazis treated the Poles before 1939 and after the war began is highly hypocritical on political and racial ideologies.

I don't think it was hypocritical, they stated their views openly - it wasn't any secret. According to their ideology the Poles were Aryans before the war, so they had to be Aryans later too.
Nazi Germany wasn't like the Stalinist USSR with their frequent Orvelian revisions of reality and history. It wasn't sufficiently totalitarian for that.

[wm]

Interesting Nazi movie industry produced a number of pro-Polish movies, many glorifying the Polish struggle to regain independence (from Russian bondage of course, the other partition powers weren't mentioned).
This is probably an incomplete list:
Abenteuer eines jungen Herrn in Polen (1934)
Abschiedswalzer (1934)
Mazur (1935)
Eskapade (1936)
August der Starke (1936)
Ritt in die Freiheit (1937)
Warschauer Zitadelle (1937)
Abenteuer in Warschau (1937)
Preußische Liebesgeschichte (1938)

[Lamarck]

That excerpt is quite informative, I've seen similar in pre-war Polish press.

Would it be possible for you to find some material in Polish about what the Nazis thought of Poles during 1933-39? The sources in English are lacking, unfortunately.

I don't think it was hypocritical, they stated their views openly - it wasn't any secret. According to their ideology the Poles were Aryans before the war, so they had to be Aryans later too.
Nazi Germany wasn't like the Stalinist USSR with their frequent Orvelian revisions of reality and history. It wasn't sufficiently totalitarian for that.

In 1920 the Nazis stated that they wanted only people of "German blood" to be Reich citizens and no more immigration after 1914 of non-Germans. In 1933 in the Ahnenpass the Poles were used as an example of "Aryans" so a civil servant could have had Polish ancestry and nothing would have happened to him because of his ancestry alone. In 1935, the Nazis used Poles as an example of a racially related minority and clearly stated that Reich Citizenship was open to such people, this is in contradiction to the alleged unchangeable 25-Point Programme of 1920. In 1939 the Poles were described as "subhumans" yet they still allowed to live on the "Aryan side". Despite being "Aryan" the Nazis executed thousands of Polish men for having sexual relations with German women during the war. Why would they execute two Aryans having sexual intercourse? There was one exception - if the Pole turned out to be "Nordic" enough for Himmler's liking.

A few notes in Christopher Mutton's book Race and the Third Reich:

"If the German state was the political realization or manifestation of the German people, why did it not include all Germans? Why did it include many Danes, Poles and French? Even the 'proper' Germans themselves could be presented as a colourful mix of diverse racial and national origins."

p. 20

"The whole topic of the racial composition of the German Volk had been shown to be at best a nuisance, and at worst a serious distraction from the main political messages of the regime. In addition to the Nordic question, there was the sensitive issue of the eastern boundary of the Volk. Could this be drawn clearly, i.e. could a racial line be shown between Germans and Slavs? If not, where was the 'true' border? One simple answer was that it was the linguistic border."

p. 166

[ManfredV]

Thanks for these notes.
Well, what is "german"? Germans are a mixture of germanic, celtic and other roots. German can mean "citizen of German state" and also "german native speaker". Austria, Liechtenstein, Luxemburg and Switzerland are also german speaking states, but Switzerland has also french, italian and rhaeto-romanic speaking people. Austria has slovenian, croatian and hungarian speaking citizens. German native speakers live in France, Belgium, Italy and Danemark; Germany has it's Sorbs and Danes...
To be "german" means "of german language", of "german culture" and it is a result of history. "Subject" of Hoy Roman Emperor, being a member of this medieval state (not a modern nation). Holy Roman Empire was larger than german speaking area. There a lot of historical events and "what if" questions.
Lothair line of Carolingians died off and East Franconia got much of their land.East Franconia kept united under one king because two of three sons of Ludwig "the german" had no heirs - otherwise there could be Bavarian, Alemanic and Franconian-Saxonian nations today. Kingdom of Burgundy failed. Switzerland segregated. Holy Roman Emperors failed to built a stong governement. Austria and Luxemburg were "thrown out" 1866. etc.
Prussia and later second empire included many mixted speaking areas (and of course areas that belonged to old polish kingdom before 1795)
Before 1945 there were no clear language border between Germans and Poles; and still today there is no clear language border between Germany and Danemark. And what about Alsace-Lorraine and "German Community in Belgium"?
Switzerland is a nation of it's own with four languages and has areas were german and french native speakers live together f.e. Freiburg/Fribourg, Biel/Bienne, Murten/Morat and Sitten/Sion. Or little village Bivio GR with mixed italian, german and rhaeto-roman speakers.
Nazi idea of "german blood" or "german race" was nonsens, but it had cruel consequences with millions of victims.
Nazi-Germany and Poland:
Germans with polish ancestry. Ethnic Poles with german passport (from before 1918). Poles were "Aryans" and also "substandard" and even "sub humans". Poles were feared in the early years until Wehrmacht became strong enough, Poland was regarded as a probable ally against USSR and communism, it was an enemy that kept Danzig away from Germany and also "occupied" areas that were regarded as "german" (borders of 1914) and at last Poland was regarded as "Lebensraum" im Osten.
My personal opinion: its a bloody and complicated history of two nations which are actually "cousins" or even "sisters".

[wm]

Would it be possible for you to find some material in Polish about what the Nazis thought of Poles during 1933-39? The sources in English are lacking, unfortunately.

The problem is there is nothing available - I think because the Nazis really didn't think anything about it and didn't care.
One is certain that the Poles were very touchy on this subject. Any disparaging statement would cause a major diplomatic incident - even if for internal political reasons.
Even the Jewish newspapers, which very very diligent in hunting for such statements, were using some anti-Polish statements from the nineteenth century not contemporary.
Interestingly one Jewish newspaper wrote that a real Nazi race theory didn't exist, there were some guidelines but the rest was fluid - every Nazi theoretician, philosopher had its own version. In this regard Nazi Germany was much more pluralistic than the USSR where obviously any deviation meant death.

"If the German state was the political realization or manifestation of the German people, why did it not include all Germans? Why did it include many Danes, Poles and French? Even the 'proper' Germans themselves could be presented as a colourful mix of diverse racial and national origins."

Well, this one is simple - because race was defined not only by genes but by common culture and common history. Most Danes, Poles and French didn't have common culture and history with the Germans.

[_Metrick]

Interesting situation was in former Austrian Silesia (on both Polish and Czech side) as Germans offered at censuses Silesian nationality which later meant Volksdeutsche status. If I remember it right there were even units of Wehrmacht that didn't speak German well enough. In that case, Silesia was really special as I don't remember any Romanian/Hungarian/Slovak etc ethnic Germans to serve in regular Nazi military except SS. I guess it also really depended on particular gauleiter and his needs for workforce in his area.

[wm]

From "Hitler's Table Talk", 12th May 1942, at dinner:
Gauleiter Forster quoted the problems raised by numerous special cases. He quoted the case of a Polish workman employed in the theatre at Graudenz, who wished to become a German national and stated in support of his claim that he had a German grandmother. Should an application of this kina be rejected out of hand? One thing was certain no German would wish to do the work that this Pole was doing in the Graudenz theatre.
There were, added Forster, the problems of the Catholic Sisters of Charity, who were doing splendid work among victims of contagious diseases, and of the Polish women working in the household of a badly wounded German.

In Forster's opinion, if any Pole desired to acquire German nationality, the decision should depend upon the general impression made by the candidate. Even in cases where it was not possible to trace exactly the antecedents of the individual, there were nevertheless certain ethnical characteristics, which, taken in conjunction with character and standard of intelligence, gave sure guidance.

According to Forster, it would appear that Professor Günther, a specialist in these matters, was quite right when he asserts, after a tour of ten-odd days through the province of Danzig, that four-fifths of the Poles living in the north of that province could be Germanised.

When called upon to make decisions in such cases one should not forget, added Forster, that real life is always stronger than theory, and that therefore one should Germanise wherever possible, bearing in mind past experience and relying on one's common sense.

In the southern and south-eastern parts of the province, it would be better to start by establishing garrisons, with the object of "resuscitating" the population, and only later to examine the possibilities of Germanisation. The thing to be avoided in all these regions and throughout the intermediary period was the introduction of German priests. It would be far better to support the Polish clergy. Polish priests, with the pressure that could be put on them, would prove more malleable. One could count on their going each Saturday to the Governor and asking what should be the subject of their sermon for the next day.
Even better would be to persuade the Polish Bishop to remain in close touch with the German Gauleiter, and thus to ensure the transmission, through him, of all the instructions thought desirable to the priests under him. In this way, Forster concluded, it would be possible to maintain order in the country, even during the transition period.

The views of Gauleiter Forster met with strong opposition, especially from Reichsleiter Bormann. The latter admitted the necessarily empirical character of some of the decisions to be taken, but maintained that, as regards the Poles, care should be exercised not to Germanise them on too wide a scale, for fear they might inoculate the German population with too strong a dose of their blood, which could have dangerous consequences.

[wm]

At this point the Fuehrer spoke again:
There is one cardinal principle. This question of the Germanisation of certain peoples must not be examined in the light of abstract ideas and theory. We must examine each particular case. The only problem is to make sure whether the off-spring of any race will mingle well with the German population and will improve it, or whether, on the contrary (as is the case when Jew blood is mixed with German blood), negative results will arise.

Unless one is completely convinced that the foreigners whom one proposes to introduce into the German community will have a beneficial effect, well, I think it's better to abstain, however strong the sentimental reasons may be which urge such a course on us. There are plenty of Jews with blue eyes and blond hair, and not a few of them have the appearance which strikingly supports the idea of the Germanisation of their kind. It has, however, been indisputably established that, in the case of Jews, if the physical characteristics of the race are sometimes absent for a generation or two, they will inevitably reappear in the next generation.

One thing struck me when I visited the Arsenal at Graz. It is that among the thousand suits of armour to be seen there, not one could be worn by a present-day Styrian - for they are all too small. To me, that is a proof that the representatives of the Germanic tribes who settled formerly in Styria not only infused new strength into the indigenous blood-stream, but also, by virtue of their own more vigorous blood, imposed their own attributes on the natives, and thus created a new racial type. This encourages me to station troops who are ethnically healthy in those regions where the race is of poor quality and thus to improve the blood-stock of the population.

[Lamarck]

wm if you're going to use the Hitler's Table Talks as a source, bare in mind that he also said:

"It's very important for the future that the Germans don't mingle with the Poles, so that the new Germanic blood may not be transmitted to the Polish ruling class."

As for all Slavs, the future of them was lined out clearly when he said:

"As for the ridiculous hundred million Slavs, we will mould the best of them as we see fit, and we will isolate the rest of them in their own pig-styes; and anyone who talks about cherishing the local inhabitants and civilising them, goes straight off into a concentration camp!"

Regarding trying to make a barrier between Germanic and Slavic, he said:

"The real frontier is the one that separates the Germanic world from the Slav world. It is our duty to place it where we want it to be. If anyone asks where we obtain the right to extend the Germanic space to the east, we reply that, for a nation, its awareness of what it represents carries this right with it. It is success that justifies everything. The reply to such questions can only be of an empirical nature. It is inconceivable that a higher people should painfully exist on a soil too narrow for it, while amorphous masses, which contribute nothing to civilization, occupy infinite tracts of a soil that is one of the richest in the world ...

We must create conditions for our people that favour its multiplication, and we must, at the same time, build a dike against the Russian flood ... Since there is no natural protection against such a flood, we must meet it with a living wall. A permanent war on the eastern front will help form a sound race of men, and will prevent us from relapsing into the softness of a Europe thrown back upon itself. It should be possible for us to control this region to the east with two hundred and fifty thousand men, plus a cadre of good administrators ...

This space in Russia must always be dominated by Germans."

Prior to 1939 it's clear that the Nazis did consider the Slavs to be Europeans but after 1939 the attitude towards them changed drastically.

After the invasion of Poland Albert Brackmann of the University of Berlin declared that Poles and other Slavs were non-Europeans, he said:

"The German people were the only bearers of culture in the East and in their role as the main power of Europe protected Western culture and carried it into uncultivated regions. For centuries they constituted a barrier in the East against lack of culture (Unkultur) and protected the West against barbarity. They protected the borders from Slavs, Avars, and Magyars."

Goebbels after a visit to Poland declared that it was "Asia". He also noted in his diary: "The Poles: a thin Germanic layer, underneath frightful material. The Jews, the most appalling people one can imagine. The towns thick with dirt. He's [Hitler] learnt a lot in these past few weeks. Above all, if Poland had gone on ruling the old German parts for a few more decades everything would have become lice-ridden and decayed."

But remember, all of this happened after the war began. I am more interested in the Nazis views of Poles during the early years of the Third Reich.

Before the war, I can't ever recall seeing posters such as:



Caption reads: ”One should not forget to keep the required distance during the utilisation of Polish people in industry and farming. Only Germans should be company at your dinner table!”

[wm]

Well, all the:

It's very important for the future that the Germans don't mingle with the Poles, so that the new Germanic blood may not be transmitted to the Polish ruling class.

As for the ridiculous hundred million Slavs, we will mould the best of them as we see fit, and we will isolate the rest of them in their own pig-styes; and anyone who talks about cherishing the local inhabitants and civilising them, goes straight off into a concentration camp!

were driven by Hitler's geopolitical considerations and goals, not by his good or bad opinions about the Poles.
The Poles had become his sworn enemies, so it didn't matter they were sub-humans or the best Aryans there were.

A barrier between Germanic and Slavic was planned by the the German Empire too, so called "Polish Border Strip", he wasn't especially original here.
Another one was "The League of East European States" and similar ideas protecting Germany from Russia.

[Lamarck]

Well, all the:

It's very important for the future that the Germans don't mingle with the Poles, so that the new Germanic blood may not be transmitted to the Polish ruling class.

As for the ridiculous hundred million Slavs, we will mould the best of them as we see fit, and we will isolate the rest of them in their own pig-styes; and anyone who talks about cherishing the local inhabitants and civilising them, goes straight off into a concentration camp!

were driven by Hitler's geopolitical considerations and goals, not by his good or bad opinions about the Poles.
The Poles had become his sworn enemies, so it didn't matter they were sub-humans or the best Aryans there were.

A barrier between Germanic and Slavic was planned by the the German Empire too, so called "Polish Border Strip", he wasn't especially original here.
Another one was "The League of East European States" and similar ideas protecting Germany from Russia.

But we also have other material to look at from the 1920s which clearly show that his considerations and goals had been already cemented before Poles were officially classified as political enemies.

"Not only in Austria, however, but also in the Reich, these so-called national circles were, and still are, under the influence of similar erroneous ideas. Unfortunately, a policy towards Poland, whereby the East was to be Germanized, was demanded by many and was based on the same false reasoning. Here again it was believed that the Polish people could be Germanized by being compelled to use the German language. The result would have been fatal. A people of foreign race would have had to use the German language to express modes of thought that were foreign to the German, thus compromising by its own inferiority the dignity and nobility of our nation."

"And so, we National Socialists consciously draw a line beneath the foreign policy tendency of our pre–War period. We take up where we broke off six hundred years ago. We stop the endless German movement to the south and west, and turn our gaze toward the land in the East. At long last, we break off the colonial and commercial policy of the pre–War period and shift to the soil policy of the future."

Already by the mid 1920s Hitler's views of the Poles as a racially inferior ethnic group to the Germans and German expansion in the East had been part of his world view.

By the late 1920s in his unpublished book:

"The National Socialist Movement, on the contrary, will always let its foreign policy be determined by the necessity to secure the space necessary to the life of our Folk. It knows no Germanising or Teutonising, as in the case of the national bourgeoisie, but only the spread of its own Folk. It will never see in the subjugated, so called Germanised, Czechs or Poles a national, let alone Folkish, strengthening, but only the racial weakening of our Folk."

"The völkisch State, conversely, must under no conditions annex Poles with the intention of wanting to make Germans out of them some day. On the contrary, it must muster the determination either to seal off these alien racial elements, so that the blood of its own Folk will not be corrupted again, or it must, without further ado, remove them and hand over the vacated territory to its own National Comrades."

So really the statements I posted in my previous post confirm that Hitler's views of the Poles and German living space in the East never changed between the 1920s and during the war. Hitler was also cunning enough to hardly talk about living space during the 1930s when he was trying to convince the world that he was a man of peace but in secret on 3 February 1933 he said to his generals that Germany's problems could be solved by "the conquest of new living space in the east and its ruthless Germanization". After the German rearmament he began to speak about it publicly again.

But all of this is slightly off-topic, I would like to know whether anyone can find any material of what the Nazis said about the Poles during 1933-39, at least publicly anyway.