Berghof Obersalzberg

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Project X
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#5731

Post by Project X » 22 Jan 2020, 20:08

Here without exact informations but for free: https://geoportal.bayern.de/bayernatlas ... 5367218804
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CraigM
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#5732

Post by CraigM » 22 Jan 2020, 22:48

Project X wrote:
22 Jan 2020, 20:08
Here without exact informations but for free: https://geoportal.bayern.de/bayernatlas ... 5367218804
Great link - thank you!


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Geoff Walden
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#5733

Post by Geoff Walden » 23 Jan 2020, 18:14

Sorry, this may be long, but in the interests of history ...

Here is what Frau Ingrid Scharfenberg, longtime owner of the Hotel Zum Türken, told me. Now, I have to say that Frau S. did on a few occasions tell me conflicting information.

To go back to the "beginning." Karl Schuster, the founder and original owner of the "Zum Türken" hotel (and Frau S's grandfather) owned all the way up to within a few meters of Haus Wachenfeld. When Haus Wachenfeld was enlarged with the added garage and driveway, the driveway had to go across Schuster's property and Hitler wanted to buy that part, but Schuster wouldn't sell, he just let Hitler use it. (This is not just from Frau S., it is also in various books.) After Schuster was forced to sell all the Türken property to Bormann in 1933, the Nazis could do whatever they wanted with that property when building and extending the Berghof.

Now from Frau S: When her mother Therese Partner successfully petitioned the Bavarian government to reacquire her father's property after the war, she got all of the original Türken land, up to the original property line with Frau Winter at Haus Wachenfeld. Of course, this included parts of the Berghof driveways and maybe even part of the 1938 Berghof service wing extension. Frau S. told me ca. 2005 that she owned this property, including some original remains of the Berghof.

This is part of a postwar U.S. Army plan, showing the Türken property line probably in the late 1950s or early 1960s. From what Frau S. told me, the original 1933 property line was more like where I put the red line, and that she owned up to there.
TuerkenBerghofPropertyLinesUSArmymap.jpg
Frau S. also told me that her property included what was underground, to include the tunnel system, and including part of the Berghof tunnel BEYOND where the tunnels are bricked up today. She was clear on this - she owned the tunnel system beneath her property. She told me that was why the government gave her a key to the big padlock on the Berghof tunnel emergency exit door (before the current internal lock), because the government could not legally exclude her from any of her underground property (although she never used this key). Indeed, in the 1960s, the Türken tunnel tour included on beyond what is bricked up today, into the main part of the Berghof tunnel, because that was part of the Türken property.

Well, all of the above may mean nothing today. Frau S. told me ca. 2012 that she no longer owned all that original property on the Wachenfeld side - that the government had taken that away from her and gave her some property "across the road" to compensate. When she told me this we were in the bar, and she waved her hand toward the area across the road from the little guard house, toward where Bormann's house was. From the plan that ProjectX posted (and others online), it is clear that the Türken property no longer contains any of the original Berghof site.

This brings a question to mind ... what about the tunnel system today? This modern property line excludes most of what we think of as the Türken tunnel - it excludes the machinegun nests, the access to the Unterstollen, and the long emergency exit. If Frau Monika Scharfenberg does not own this part, what does that mean for the future of the Türken tunnel access?

Headwest, you asked if any Türken tunnels access the Berghof basement, but the answer to that is no, not the basement. Frau Ingrid Scharfenberg did at one time own part of the Berghof basement, but apparently not any longer. When she told me this, she implied that the government did not want any of the Berghof site to be in private hands.

Alas, nothing around there is "safe."

Geoff
"Ordnung ist das halbe Leben" - I live in the other half.
http://www.thirdreichruins.com

headwest
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#5734

Post by headwest » 23 Jan 2020, 18:56

ah, thanks so much Geoff!

GREAT info as always. By the way I watched you on youtube touring the grounds there! awesome stuff as always

that was sort of where I was heading, if this sale somehow still contained parts of the Berghof tunnels etc. Crazy to think she owned the tunnels AND basement of part of the house which I think you once said could still be there just buried and filled in.

interesting to that so late in life they decide to take away the berghof property and give her the land across the road. someone must have realized this and thought we can't have someone, a private citizen have access to this. in Germany do they Imminent Domain stuff like this?

and just to follow up, Geoff do you still thin the basement could still be there?

thanks! great stuff everyone

headwest
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#5735

Post by headwest » 23 Jan 2020, 19:00

Sorry to follow up again, and just thinking

IF she had still owned the Berghof land today, could she as a private citizen have rolled digging equipment in and opened up the basement for a tour site? or because it is so associated with hitler and that time would the Gov't be able to over rule a private citizen on doing something like this?

I ask because its interesting to think if anyone did own the berghof, or another persons old home site, can they as a private citizen do what they want?

thanks!

ps - not the same, but some people will buy old southern plantations here, where slaves were, and the whole antebellum south, and fix them up and then have wedding receptions etc!

CraigM
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#5736

Post by CraigM » 24 Jan 2020, 14:55

Geoff Walden wrote:
23 Jan 2020, 18:14
Sorry, this may be long, but in the interests of history ...
Thanks for the excellent clarification Geoff!

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Annelie
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#5737

Post by Annelie » 24 Jan 2020, 15:15

Just to remind forum users Geoff has an excellent book on his
favourite topic

"Hitler's Berchtesgaden" a guide to Third Reich Sites in
Berchtesgaden and Obersalzberg Area"

Br. James
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#5738

Post by Br. James » 24 Jan 2020, 16:05

Absolutely right, Annelie; Geoff's fine book has had an honored place in my library ever since he autographed my copy in 2015! Anyone interested in this subject would do well to get a copy of "Hitler's Berchtesgaden" for their own library!

Br. James

headwest
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#5739

Post by headwest » 24 Jan 2020, 16:15

I have it to!

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N.C. Wyeth
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#5740

Post by N.C. Wyeth » 25 Jan 2020, 04:24

It is certainly the BEST book you can take along on your Journey - hands down.

I loaned mine to my Dad before we left back in late August - and he couldn't put it down! He is now 72, and I was so happy to see his enthusiasm for coming along and chasing down all the sites. My friend, Sven is a real "Mountain Goat" - and lead the charge. Although we weren't as well conditioned for some of those hills and mountains - wherever Sven went, my Dad did as well. There is still much left to see around BG (although it is changing/disappearing fast!), and Geoff's book lays it all out masterfully. So well, my Dad wanted to see it all.

Imagine my dismay, as my Dad was walking back up the trail from the Teehaus overlook to the Turken - carrying Geoff's book . . . and spotting the Bunker door, in that ravine just below the Hintereck road. He couldn't resist attempting to climb over the cattle fence - and getting a closer look. I saw it all - a quick zap from the power . . . and there goes my book, tumbling down into the ravine - along with my Dad. I must confess, I couldn't decide quick enough which was more important to confirm first - the safety of my Dad, or the safety of Geoff's book!

Well, all is well now. Both my Dad and the book survived. Each better for the wear - and now we have so many fond memories to laugh over. And it was all made possible by GW's book. Thanks, buddy - it is certainly a Masterpiece! :thumbsup:
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Geoff Walden
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#5741

Post by Geoff Walden » 27 Jan 2020, 01:35

What a story! Glad to hear your Dad weathered it all! I didn't know that fence was electrified!
Geoff
"Ordnung ist das halbe Leben" - I live in the other half.
http://www.thirdreichruins.com

RickBamboo
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#5742

Post by RickBamboo » 29 Jan 2020, 00:19

Yeah, Geoffs Book "Hitlers Berchtesgaden" is THE Book you Need if you are in to this Obersalzberg stuff …
And it's a honour for me to have that book.
Thanks Geoff ;-)

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avid21
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#5743

Post by avid21 » 29 Jan 2020, 19:37

hi, is anybody aware of the secondary (or primary) entry to the berghof tunnel from the turken. apparently the spiral staircase was a post war addition. so how/ where did the access lead from (in the 30s) ? there doesnt seem to be any (additional) door or entry into the long tunnel corridor leading from the Bormann tunnel

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Geoff Walden
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#5744

Post by Geoff Walden » 30 Jan 2020, 01:51

This is a debatable question. Florian Beierl in Hitlers Berg said that there was no direct access from the Türken into that tunnel during the Third Reich period. In order for RDS/SS men to get from the Türken into the tunnel system, without going outside, they had to go through a small access tunnel that ran from the basement of the Türken back beneath the hill into the basement of the Modellhaus. From there, they went through another connecting tunnel into the basements of the SS Kaserne buildings, then into the OSB Administration building, then into the Vordereck tunnel (Flak command tunnel), which then gave access to the tunnel behind the Türken (and on to the Berghof tunnel).

BUT ... There are at least two period German tunnel plans that show the current entrance into the tunnel from the Türken - showing like it was there then (not the spiral staircase, but an entrance), and one of these plans shows TWO entrances into the tunnel from the Türken. The other one was from the garage and came out into the tunnel just before the long staircase going down toward the Berghof tunnel. Several years ago there were marks on the wall there that looked like an entrance had been filled in and finished off there. (I have not been able to see these marks for the past 10 years.)

For me, the jury is still out on this question ...
"Ordnung ist das halbe Leben" - I live in the other half.
http://www.thirdreichruins.com

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tunix0
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Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

#5745

Post by tunix0 » 30 Jan 2020, 11:33

Geoff Walden wrote:
30 Jan 2020, 01:51
This is a debatable question. Florian Beierl in Hitlers Berg said that there was no direct access from the Türken into that tunnel during the Third Reich period. In order for RDS/SS men to get from the Türken into the tunnel system, without going outside, they had to go through a small access tunnel that ran from the basement of the Türken back beneath the hill into the basement of the Modellhaus. From there, they went through another connecting tunnel into the basements of the SS Kaserne buildings, then into the OSB Administration building, then into the Vordereck tunnel (Flak command tunnel), which then gave access to the tunnel behind the Türken (and on to the Berghof tunnel).

BUT ... There are at least two period German tunnel plans that show the current entrance into the tunnel from the Türken - showing like it was there then (not the spiral staircase, but an entrance), and one of these plans shows TWO entrances into the tunnel from the Türken. The other one was from the garage and came out into the tunnel just before the long staircase going down toward the Berghof tunnel. Several years ago there were marks on the wall there that looked like an entrance had been filled in and finished off there. (I have not been able to see these marks for the past 10 years.)

For me, the jury is still out on this question ...
Hi,

i found the following maps in my documents. I no longer know whether I have it from here or from the Internet. I don't know the sources. The maps show the two entrances from the Türken.
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osbcios4a1.jpg
osbcios3.jpg
OSB Tunnels Map.jpg
OBE04-Obersalzberg.jpg
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