Is it true that Austrians are ethnic Germans?

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Sid Guttridge
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Re: Is it true that Austrians are ethnic Germans?

#46

Post by Sid Guttridge » 22 Nov 2020, 19:40

Hi Guys,

I may have missed something, but has anyone in these 45 posts actually claimed that the Austrians are not essentially ethnic Germans?

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Is it true that Austrians are ethnic Germans?

#47

Post by Sheldrake » 22 Nov 2020, 22:41

Sid Guttridge wrote:
22 Nov 2020, 19:40
Hi Guys,

I may have missed something, but has anyone in these 45 posts actually claimed that the Austrians are not essentially ethnic Germans?

Cheers,

Sid.
The question in the title was in the present tense. The answer is that modern Austrians do not consider themselves as Germans.

What Ethnicity Are Most Austrians?
Rank Self-Identified Ethnic Group Population in Contemporary Austria
1 Ethnic Austrians 7.8 Million
2 Turks 350,000
3 Germans 236,000
4 Serbs 192,000
5 Slovenes 50,000
6 Croats 25,000
7 Hungarians 20,000
https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/wha ... rians.html

Austrian History 1 has made this point already.

For us furriners to insist that Austrians are essentially Germans is as impertinent as telling a Scotsman that he is basically an Englishman with a funny accent.

Its all a matter of definition, linguistics and perspective.

Austria and Germany are both historic and current day countries and the terms Austrian and German used to describe the people who live in there. In general terms Austrians speak German and the history of Austria is closely linked to neighbouring German states. Simple eh?

But ethnicity isn't a simple matter - especially in the context of the world wars. Ideas of Germany and Austria have changed over time. Before 1870 Germany was a geographic area and German meant German speaker. Austrian identity has changed over time.


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Hans1906
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Re: Is it true that Austrians are ethnic Germans?

#48

Post by Hans1906 » 24 Nov 2020, 20:04

"For us furriners to insist that Austrians are essentially Germans is as impertinent as telling a Scotsman that he is basically an Englishman with a funny accent."

Sheldrake,
your comment above was probably the most important comment in the whole topic, thank you for that!
You have brought the tiresome topic exactly to the point, nothing more is possible. :wink:

Hans1906
The paradise of the successful lends itself perfectly to a hell for the unsuccessful. (Bertold Brecht on Hollywood)

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Is it true that Austrians are ethnic Germans?

#49

Post by Sid Guttridge » 25 Nov 2020, 02:45

HI Hans,

That is, of course, nonsense.

The roots of the Scots and English are largely Celtic and Germanic respectively, though much mixing has occurred.

As I understand it, there is no claim that Austrians are a distinct ethnic group. They are a mix of largely Germanic, Slavic and Celtic origins, with the former contributing about half their DNA. Their language apparently reflects this greater Germanic ethnic influence.

The opinions of Austrians on their ethnicity (the subject of this thread) is irrelevant, as opinion does not decide ethnicity.

However, their opinions on their national identity (not the subject of this thread) are relevant, as they can identify themselves as whatever they want and rapidly develop distinct cultural traits.

Whereas, by and large, DNA appears to show that Scots are not "basically an Englishman with a funny accent", it would appear one cannot be so definitive in separating Austrians from Germans on ethnic grounds.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Is it true that Austrians are ethnic Germans?

#50

Post by Futurist » 25 Nov 2020, 03:37

George L Gregory wrote:
14 Nov 2020, 02:04
British historian Richard J. Evans in his book The Third Reich in Power wrote:
Throughout the 1920s all the major political parties had been committed to reunifying Austria - part of Germany in its various incarnations all the way up to 1866 - with the Reich.
He also stated the following:
The East German population has so far shown a degree of identification with its own country which might seem surprising. Here we might turn for enlightenment to the example of Austria, which was part of Germany until 1866, under the Holy Roman Empire and its successor the German Confederation. With the collapse of the Habsburg monarchy in 1918, the inhabitants of what was now known as German-Austria were virtually unanimous in wanting their country’s absorption into the fledgling Weimar Republic. The merger was prevented by the Western Allies, who could not accept that the Germans should come out of the war with their territory enlarged. It was an Austrian statesman, Ignaz Seipel, who then coined the phrase ‘one nation, two states’ which has been applied more recently to the GDR and the FRG. When the Nazis came to power many Austrians started to have second thoughts about a merger with Germany, yet the Anschluss of 1938, which resurrected the ‘greater German’ idea of unification ditched by Bismarck in 1866, was still in all probability welcomed by a majority. It was only after the harsh experience of Nazi rule, and above all after 1945, when the Austrians, for all their heavy involvement in Nazism, were offered a fresh start, that ‘German reunification’ ceased to mean a union including Austria.
https://www.lrb.co.uk/the-paper/v11/n24 ... two-states
Ironically, even though Nazism caused Austrians to distance themselves from their Germanness, it also made Austrians more tolerant of nationalism in comparison to Germans since this allowed Austrian nationalism not to be associated with Nazism in the same way that German nationalism was and still is to some extent.

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Re: Is it true that Austrians are ethnic Germans?

#51

Post by ManfredV » 25 Nov 2020, 19:14

Who are "ethnic germans"? Germans are not a "race" and there's no "german blood". Look at history. Germans were/are those who live in an area in middle europe (without clear borders), have one language (but this was't clear before Luther's bible translation and even till 19th century) and those who were ruled by frankish and later german kings, belonged to Holy Roman Empire and have a common culture and national consciousness (which came up in late 18th/early 19th century). Germans are a mixture of germanic, celtic, slavonian roots and others. They were united under their kings and emperors (in formers times), their language and their "german culture". But of course, Germany and Austria have their minorities with other mother tongue: Sorbs and Danes in Germany; Slovens and Croats in Austria. People of german mother tongue live in Switzerland (which was part of HRE before 1648), Italy, Belgia, Denmark eg.
About 25% of todays germans have one or more grandma/grandpa who wasn't german citizen. Of course this includes german speaking people from Poland, USSR eg. (Volksdeutsche), Sudeten eg. but also descendants of turkish origin eg.
What if... Emperor Lothar I sons had heirs? Or sons of Ludwig "the German" Ludwig the younger and Karl "the fat" had their heirs? Otto I failed? Later Staufer dynasty was successful? Or 1866 not Bismarck but Deutscher Bund won german civil war?
Austria was "excluded" 1866 and after WW II they claimed to be victims of Germany and Hitler. Mozart was "Austrian" but Hitler wasn't?
Is there a "swiss ethnicy"? Four languages. But a very vital and pride swiss nation which is based not on "Ethnicy" but history, democrazy, common sense and their success.
In Austria slovenic Austrians fought as partisans against Hitler. But in spring 45 when Tito army tried to occupy Styria and Carinthia, many of them helped to force them out (but of course others supported Tito).
Sorb Tillich was MP of Saxony and Burgenland-croat Sinowatz was Austrian chancellor.
So the answer isn't easy.

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Re: Is it true that Austrians are ethnic Germans?

#52

Post by George L Gregory » 25 Nov 2020, 21:57

ManfredV wrote:
25 Nov 2020, 19:14
Who are "ethnic germans"? Germans are not a "race" and there's no "german blood". Look at history. Germans were/are those who live in an area in middle europe (without clear borders), have one language (but this was't clear before Luther's bible translation and even till 19th century) and those who were ruled by frankish and later german kings, belonged to Holy Roman Empire and have a common culture and national consciousness (which came up in late 18th/early 19th century). Germans are a mixture of germanic, celtic, slavonian roots and others. They were united under their kings and emperors (in formers times), their language and their "german culture". But of course, Germany and Austria have their minorities with other mother tongue: Sorbs and Danes in Germany; Slovens and Croats in Austria. People of german mother tongue live in Switzerland (which was part of HRE before 1648), Italy, Belgia, Denmark eg.
About 25% of todays germans have one or more grandma/grandpa who wasn't german citizen. Of course this includes german speaking people from Poland, USSR eg. (Volksdeutsche), Sudeten eg. but also descendants of turkish origin eg.
What if... Emperor Lothar I sons had heirs? Or sons of Ludwig "the German" Ludwig the younger and Karl "the fat" had their heirs? Otto I failed? Later Staufer dynasty was successful? Or 1866 not Bismarck but Deutscher Bund won german civil war?
Austria was "excluded" 1866 and after WW II they claimed to be victims of Germany and Hitler. Mozart was "Austrian" but Hitler wasn't?
Is there a "swiss ethnicy"? Four languages. But a very vital and pride swiss nation which is based not on "Ethnicy" but history, democrazy, common sense and their success.
In Austria slovenic Austrians fought as partisans against Hitler. But in spring 45 when Tito army tried to occupy Styria and Carinthia, many of them helped to force them out (but of course others supported Tito).
Sorb Tillich was MP of Saxony and Burgenland-croat Sinowatz was Austrian chancellor.
So the answer isn't easy.
I think you've hit the nail on the head. The concept of an ethnic group is a social construct and is made quite clear in Benedict Anderson's book Imagined Communities: Reflections on the Origin and Spread of Nationalism (first published in 1983).

But, things were different, a lot different, back in the late 19th century and early 20th century when nationalism and the concepts of 'blood' and 'racial community' were widely spread all over the world. Even now, there are some people who think you need to look a certain way or be of a specific ancestry to be accepted as part of an ethnic group but that's beside the point.

Look at the historical "ethnic" origins of some Germans. The Old Prussians were not even a Germanic tribe, but an Old Baltic tribe who were Germanised. So, the "Germans" who unified Germans weren't even ethnically Germanic, never mind ethnically German!!! Even historically there was a lot of "Slavic blood" amongst many "Germans", especially in many parts of Eastern Germany- a fact which even the Nazis admitted and accepted. Remember as well that the only Slavs who were deemed to be racially acceptable to the Nazis weren't even considered to be Slavs but people of Germanic descent living in Poland, Czechoslovakia, Ukraine, Russia, etc. Hans F. K. Günther and other racial theorists who influenced the Nazis thought that the Slavs were originally Nordic and then mixed with other sub-races and for the most part lost their Nordic blood.

Alfred Rosenberg wrote in The Myth of the Twentieth Century:
The Nordic race once existed in eastern Europe, but here again, it was intermixed with a variety of other races, including Magyars, Slavs, Mongols, Jews and so on. If the Germans had survived in our time as overlords without mixing, then this area might have continued to have a civilisation as it had had earlier in world history.
No people of Europe is racially homogeneous, not even Germany. According to the latest research, we accept five races all of which reveal perceptibly different types. But it is beyond question that the true culture bearer for Europe has been in the first place the Nordic race. Great heroes, artists and founders of states have grown from this blood.
It should also be noted that the Nazis, arguably the most racist pan-Germans, viewed the Germans officially as a mixed group of people:
The German people is no unitary race, rather it is composed of members of different races (of the Nordic, Phalian, Dinaric, Alpine, Mediterranean, East-Elbian race) and mixtures between these. The blood of all these races and their mixtures, which thus is found in the German people, represents 'German blood'.
Dr Ernst Brandis, a senior legal bureaucrat, in his commentary on the Law for the Protection of German Blood and German Honour and the Law for the Protection of the Hereditary Health of the German people (Gesetz zum Schutze der Erbgesundheit des deutschen Volkes or Ehegesundheitsgesetz, 18 October 1935.

Christopher Hutton, Race and the Third Reich, page 92.
Das deutsche Volk bildet keine eigene Rasse. Das deutsche Volk setzt sich vielmehr aus Angehörigen verschiedener Rassen zusammen [nordisch, fälisch, dinarisch, westisch, ostisch, ostbaltisch]. Allen diesen Rassen aber ist eigentümlich, dass ihr Blut sich miteinander verträgt und eine Blutmischung – anders als bei nicht artverwandten – keine Hemmungen und Spannungen auslöst. Dem deutschen Blut kann daher unbedenklich das Blut derjenigen Völker gleichgestellt werden, deren rassische Zusammensetzung den Deutschen verwandt ist. Das ist durchweg bei den geschlossen in Europa siedelnden Völkern der Fall. Reichsbürger können daher auch die Angehörigen der in Deutschland lebenden Minderheiten, z. B. Polen, Dänen usw. werden.
German blood does not form its own race. The German people are made up of representatives of different races. But all these races are characterized by the fact that their blood is mutually compatible and a mixture of these blood, unlike blood that is not related to them, does not create obstacles and strains. To the German blood, you can, without a doubt, equate the blood of those peoples whose racial makeup is related to the German people. This applies to all people inhabiting the lands of Europe. Blood, related to German, is equally considered in all directions. Therefore, the citizens of the Empire can become representatives of minorities living in Germany, for example, Poles, Danes, etc.
Wilhelm Frick, Reichsbürgergesetzes (Reich Citizenship Law), 1935.

The terms "Germany" and "German" are not used today as they were used 100 years ago.

Anyway, with regards to the Austrian national identity, in 1842, the Austrian writer Franz Grillparzer wrote to his friend A. Foglar:
Ich bin kein Deutscher sondern ein Österreicher, ja ein Nieder-österreicher, und vor allem ein Wiener.
I'm not a German, I'm an Austrian, yes a Lower Austrian, and above all a Viennese.
After Austria was excluded from the German Confederation ("Germany") in 1866, he wrote the following as a rhyme in 1867:
Als Deutscher ward ich geboren, bin ich noch einer? Nur was ich Deutsches geschrieben, das nimmt mir keiner.
I was born a German, am I still one? Only what I have written in German, nobody takes away from me.
Mozart also wrote about being a German to his father:
... I believe I am capable of bringing honor to any court—and if Germany, my beloved Fatherland, of which, as you know, I am proud, will not take me up—well, let France or England, in God's name become the richer by another talented German—and that to the disgrace of the German nation!
So, even though Mozart wasn't born in Austria when he was born, the whole world sees him as an Austrian, but Hitler who wasn't born in Germany when he was born, even though his birthplace was historically a part of Bavaria, the whole world sees as an Austrian and not as a "German". Describing Mozart as a "German", even though he considered himself as one "upsets Austrians" these days:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/3131333.stm

"'German' Mozart upsets Austrians" - 2003.

I researched the topic a little bit and found out that in 1992 The New York Times published Mozart's letter to his father and asked people's opinions about Mozart being considered a German, not an Austrian:

https://www.nytimes.com/1992/01/11/opin ... 78092.html

Thus, the belonging to a People (Volk) was along linguistic terms. It wasn't until the 1880s and 1890s when the belonging to a People (Volk) became to be defined in more racial terms. Anti-Semitism and anti-Slavism were very popular among the pan-Germans in the late 19th century, especially against the Czechs in Austria-Hungary and against the Poles in the German Empire.

With regards to the national identity of the Austro-Germans during the early 20th century, I found an interesting quote about this:
While a majority of Austrians openly yearned for Anschluss with the Weimar Republic, few of them thought of themselves as Germans in the radical sense propounded by Schönerer and his followers. In October 1919, for example, seventeen nationalist parties combined in the Greater German People’s Party (GDVP), a movement strongly influenced by Schönerer’s Pan-German ideas. Despite vigorous agitation, the party never garnered more than 17 percent of the vote in electoral contests between 1919 and 1933, attracting primarily, students, teachers, and civil servants—the same groups that had flocked to the German messiah years before.
Evan Burr Bukey, Hitler's Austria: Popular Sentiment in the Nazi Era, 1938-1945, page 9.

So, while a German identity certainly existed amongst the Austrian population between 1910-1933, few Austrians thought of themselves as Germans in a racial sense like the Austrian anti-semites such as Georg Ritter von Schönerer did. It was only after the Austrian-born Adolf Hitler came to power in Germany was the racial sense of Austrians belonging to the German Volk emphasised and used as a factor for Austria to be annexed to Germany.

So while 100 years ago it was acceptable to see the Austrians as Germans, since at least the 1960s the Austrians have overwhelmingly seen themselves as different to the Germans, respectively.
Last edited by George L Gregory on 26 Nov 2020, 00:30, edited 5 times in total.

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Re: Is it true that Austrians are ethnic Germans?

#53

Post by ManfredV » 25 Nov 2020, 22:13

Thanks a lot!

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Is it true that Austrians are ethnic Germans?

#54

Post by Sid Guttridge » 26 Nov 2020, 11:20

Hi George,

Thanks for the trouble you have taken.

Ethnicity is a continuum across the planet.

However, within this there are certain ethnic traits that were concentrated heavily in certain areas and it was these that 19th and 20th Century ethnic nationalists latched onto in an attempt to establish some sort of ethnic purity for their particular group.

That said, these traits do exist and can be identified and labelled. In the Austrian case about half of them are attributed to Germanic input and most of the rest to Celtic and Slavic input.

If the Austrians chose to identify themselves as Austrian rather than German is up to them. Certainly their DNA doesn't oblige them to exclusively think of themselves as Germans, though wider language and culture might lead them in that direction. The Dutch have long since made their choice and so can the Austrians, or, indeed, Bavarians etc., etc.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Is it true that Austrians are ethnic Germans?

#55

Post by ManfredV » 26 Nov 2020, 11:58

Austrians have their national identity. They are part of "german family" but have their own state, their history, special kinds of culture. Austrian German is different from Germany's German, esp. from this "North German". Many Austrians don't like the "Piefkes". Of course many people in South Germany, too. :D
Look at Switzerland: they have four languages. German is only one of them. Switzerland was part of HRE until de facto 1499 and de jure 1648 but then they went their own way. There's no "Swiss Ethnicity" but a very strong national identity.

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Is it true that Austrians are ethnic Germans?

#56

Post by Sid Guttridge » 26 Nov 2020, 14:00

Hi Manfred,

The Swiss situation is somewhat different. Although most cantons are German-speaking, there are entire cantons where the local language is French, Italian or Romanch. Recognition of this requires a different constitutional set up from Austria, whuch does not have this situation. Apart from a few Slovene-speaking villages, Austria us entirely German-speaking.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Re: Is it true that Austrians are ethnic Germans?

#57

Post by ManfredV » 26 Nov 2020, 18:50

That's what I mean: There's no Swiss ethnicity but a national identity.

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Re: Is it true that Austrians are ethnic Germans?

#58

Post by George L Gregory » 27 Nov 2020, 00:10

Many Germans also have Slavic ancestry. In Eastern Germany, 20% of Germans have historical Slavic ancestry and 20% of foreign surnames in Germany are Slavic.

The Celtic peoples, the Germanic peoples, the Baltic peoples, the Slavic peoples, etc, have all settled all over different parts of Europe.

I'm sure Johannes Blaskowitz, Erich von dem Bach-Zelewski, Erich von Manstein, Odilo Globočnik, who all had non-German descent considered themselves to be Germans.

Immanuel Kant and Ludwig van Beethoven had non-German ancestry, but I'm sure they considered themselves to be Germans.

Angela Merkel's grandfather was a Pole. I'm sure she considers herself to be German.

Jews have been living in Germany for a very long time. How many Germans have Jewish ancestors? Are they not Germans?

What about the Sorbs? They live in a divided region between Germany and Poland.

The Germanic Eastern settlement and other Germanic settlements resulted in Germanic people settling in the modern-day countries Poland, Bohemia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Hungary and Transylvania. As well as large populations in modern-day countries Estonia, Latvia, Romania, Moldova (more specifically Bessarabia), Ukraine, Russia, and Kazakhstan.

All 'ethnic groups' are a mixture of different peoples/tribes.

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Re: Is it true that Austrians are ethnic Germans?

#59

Post by Georg_S » 29 Nov 2020, 22:21

For Myself I really dont understand why some austrians should be upeset Being germans. If they point to the history with germany the last 100 years, I think it a bit funny. As I am a Swedish man Im also a Scandinavian (Sweden,Denmark, Norway, Finland and Iceland) Sweden have fought the Denmark and Norway so many Times during the history, Denmark was a Long Time as with Russia consider a Archenemy to Sweden, but Still we are Scandinavians .
But ok , we from Sweden havent had a war in more than 200 years , and we in Sweden use to say that we are peace damaged . Beside we are Scandinavians we are also Germans

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Re: Is it true that Austrians are ethnic Germans?

#60

Post by Hans1906 » 30 Nov 2020, 16:05

Georg,

"Germanische Sprachen" is another topic: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanische_Sprachen

I have learned the north german dialect "Plattdeutsch" from my family, they grew up with this dialect.
Understanding almost everything is easy for me, talking and writing the dialect is another question...

Talking to people, for example from the Netherlands, Belgium, Luxembourg, not a problem at all.

Also the bavarian dialect, and, I am able to understand many of the austrian dialects also, even the stranger ones,
but not perfect in all this...

Regional dialects, to understand just a little bit about all this, this is a given gift, by interest, by whatever?

I am a long time fan of Herr Oskar Werner, the theater and cinema genius, passed away in the year 1984.
Love his typical "Wienerisch" accent, makes me shiver, every time I am able to listen to his voice.


Hans1906
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