Berghof Obersalzberg

Discussions on the propaganda, architecture and culture in the Third Reich.
Br. James
Member
Posts: 760
Joined: 27 May 2013 20:45
Location: Baltimore

Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

Post by Br. James » 24 Jul 2022 19:55

Bormann and his minions at the 'Obersalzberg Administration' had a system of linking tunnels and storage chambers dug into the mountainside behind the Berghof for just such a precaution; indeed, when the Brits sent a massive bomber force to the Obersalzberg in April of 1945, escorted by P-51s from the US Eighth Air Force, the occupants of the Berghof and many other buildings and areas went into the tunnels for safety, and the major contents of those houses were already stored there.

Br. James

Mike Tal
Member
Posts: 54
Joined: 22 Nov 2016 13:45
Location: Prague

Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

Post by Mike Tal » 28 Jul 2022 14:25

Biber wrote:
23 Jul 2022 13:50
Good question. According to the article it went to a museum in '46. It must have been collected by some official entity. Had it been a part of the looting by locals that we are so often reminded of, it wouldn't have seen the light of day for decades. Such is my impression anyway. Likely the Berghof had been cleared of such valuables long before by the SS as a safety/precautionary measure. Is this a monuments men story?
Also, decorations (painting/statues etc.) were quite frequently changed. They were replaced and moved into storage or to anohter location on the Berghof. This can be seen when comparing photos from different times, particularly of the Great Hall. Also I think it was something that Herbert Doehring spoke about in one of his interviews... So chances are that at the end of the war this picture might not have been hanging there anymore.

User avatar
Geoff Walden
Member
Posts: 2584
Joined: 29 Mar 2002 14:50
Location: South of the Mason-Dixon Line

Re: Hitler’s Watch?

Post by Geoff Walden » 03 Aug 2022 01:24

Interesting discussion about Hitler and watches here:

viewtopic.php?f=46&t=210204
Geoff Walden wrote:
19 Jul 2022 02:56
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/news ... to-auction

This whole thing sounds like BS to me. Just take a close look at the swastika - not symmetrical and poorly executed.

Did Hitler even wear or carry a watch? I don’t know. And where did this item come from inside the Berghof, which was almost entirely a burned out shell when captured?

I don’t know where the auctioneers got that fantasy story about the French troops “storming the Berghof” before the US 3rd Armored Division (wrong - the US 3rd Armd Div was in Sangerhausen, over 600km north of Berchtesgaden - they should have said the US 3rd Infantry Division). In actuality it was the US 3rd Infantry Division that arrived in Berchtesgaden and on the Obersalzberg first, on the afternoon and evening of 4 May 1945, and captured the Berghof. The French forces did not arrive until later that night.

To me, none of this produces any confidence that this item is genuine.
"Ordnung ist das halbe Leben" - I live in the other half.
http://www.thirdreichruins.com

User avatar
Geoff Walden
Member
Posts: 2584
Joined: 29 Mar 2002 14:50
Location: South of the Mason-Dixon Line

Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

Post by Geoff Walden » 03 Aug 2022 01:48

In her book “Er war mein Chef” (1985), Hitler’s secretary Christa Schroeder recounted saving several Berghof art objects from destruction. She had been sent from Berlin to the Obersalzberg before the bombing, and as adjutant Julius Schaub burned letters, photos, and documents, Schroeder saved “some very large paintings,” which were trucked by the SS to Altaussee, where they were later found by the Allies.
Schroeder specifically mentioned a work by Bordone and one by Tintoretto, but there were evidently others, probably including the Panini. The Bordone was doubtless the famous “Venus and Amor” (or Venus and Cupid), which was hung in the Great Hall, and which is now also in Warsaw.
F9ECF1AA-0BAC-4389-B337-4F39EF164E90.jpeg
The Tintoretto may have been this one, which was also in the Great Hall (that is, I believe this was by Tintoretto - it is very similar to identified works of his).
04320D83-3013-41A9-96D8-6B9F316F40FC.jpeg
6F82EC95-FF4C-487F-8E04-BAFE8AA59CCD.jpeg
Another work saved was a Madonna that was sometimes over the fireplace in the Great Hall (I think this is also in Warsaw now, or some other museum).
E570E4A2-CC45-46E3-8311-A2381F0B831D.jpeg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
"Ordnung ist das halbe Leben" - I live in the other half.
http://www.thirdreichruins.com

User avatar
Max
Member
Posts: 2586
Joined: 16 Mar 2002 14:08
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

Post by Max » 04 Aug 2022 12:38

Geoff Walden wrote:
03 Aug 2022 01:48

Another work saved was a Madonna that was sometimes over the fireplace in the Great Hall (I think this is also in Warsaw now, or some other museum).
Yes - it is in the National Museum in Warsaw
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Cate ... _in_Warsaw

In the Berghof
Image

The Bordone Venus and Cupid [on the right] in the Berghof
Image
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Cate ... _Cupid.jpg
Greetings from the Wide Brown.

User avatar
Max
Member
Posts: 2586
Joined: 16 Mar 2002 14:08
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

Post by Max » 05 Aug 2022 08:35

On the left,of the Berghof great hall image above, you can see this
Image
Adam and Eve after the Fall by Edward von Steinle
Greetings from the Wide Brown.

User avatar
Max
Member
Posts: 2586
Joined: 16 Mar 2002 14:08
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

Post by Max » 05 Aug 2022 15:05

So here's a bit of a mystery
The black and white image is from the catalog of Hitlers personal collection. https://www.loc.gov/pictures/phpdata/pa ... 496&seq=46
The coloured image is from the museum[NMWA] that currently owns this Panini https://collection.nmwa.go.jp/en/P.2010-0001.html
It seems that the two images match exactly.
This also from the same museum
Provenance
In the collection of Baron Penrhyn at Penrhyn Castle, North Wales, in whose collection believed to have entered in circa 1860; First recorded by Lady Alice Douglas Pennant in her ‘Catalogue of the Pictures at Penrhyn Castle and Mortimer House in 1901’, private family publication, Bangor 1902, no. 22; Recorded in the ‘Inventory and Valuation for Probate Purposes of Edward Sholto, Baron Penrhyn, at Penrhyn Castle, Bangor’, inventory compiled 1 December 1927 – 19 January 1928, by John Pritchard & Co., Bangor, p. 179, no. 22; Recorded in the ‘Inventory and Valuation for Probate Purposes of Hugh Napier, Fourth Baron Penrhyn’, compiled December 1949 – January 1950, by John Pritchard & Co., Bangor, p. 112, as no. 22; Private collection, England; Purchased by the NMWA, 2010.
Some time between 1928 and 1950 the painting was owned by Hitler, but of that there is no record.
Assuming that there are not two exactly identical paintings; how could Hitler have purchased a painting that had been in the same English family for generations and how was it returned to them?
ezgif.com-gif-maker (2).gif
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Greetings from the Wide Brown.

User avatar
Annelie
Member
Posts: 5048
Joined: 12 Mar 2002 02:45
Location: North America

Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

Post by Annelie » 05 Aug 2022 16:00

Then its quite understandable to assume that one of them is an fake
with fake provenance?

Perhaps someone noticed this earlier and even asked Cornelius Gurlitt
who died in 2014. It was his father who was actively acquiring and hoarding art.

User avatar
Max
Member
Posts: 2586
Joined: 16 Mar 2002 14:08
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

Post by Max » 06 Aug 2022 09:08

Portrait of Helmuth Karl Bernhard von Moltke the Elder to the left of the fire place in image above
von Moltke.jpg
http://www.artnet.de/k%C3%BCnstler/fran ... NXMmA10OA2
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Greetings from the Wide Brown.

User avatar
Max
Member
Posts: 2586
Joined: 16 Mar 2002 14:08
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

Post by Max » 06 Aug 2022 09:21

Annelie wrote:
05 Aug 2022 16:00
Then its quite understandable to assume that one of them is an fake
with fake provenance?

Perhaps someone noticed this earlier and even asked Cornelius Gurlitt
who died in 2014. It was his father who was actively acquiring and hoarding art.
OR:
Maybe there were two identical paintings
Maybe Hitler's photo is of the original but the one on the wall is a copy
Maybe the painting was a gift of an admirer who managed to get it back. [through Gurlitt?] :D
It was not uncommon for artists to copy master works, although usually with slight variations.
If there is a second version [ as seems likely ] where is Hitler's painting.
Greetings from the Wide Brown.

User avatar
Annelie
Member
Posts: 5048
Joined: 12 Mar 2002 02:45
Location: North America

Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

Post by Annelie » 06 Aug 2022 13:56

Code: Select all

 Maybe Hitler's photo is of the original but the one on the wall is a copy                   
Copy/Fake? Same?

User avatar
Max
Member
Posts: 2586
Joined: 16 Mar 2002 14:08
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

Post by Max » 06 Aug 2022 14:28

Annelie wrote:
06 Aug 2022 13:56

Code: Select all

 Maybe Hitler's photo is of the original but the one on the wall is a copy                   
Copy/Fake? Same?
It's only a fake if it purports to be an original.
It was common for students/apprentices to copy the works of their masters as a learning exercise.
Greetings from the Wide Brown.

User avatar
Max
Member
Posts: 2586
Joined: 16 Mar 2002 14:08
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

Post by Max » 06 Aug 2022 14:47

Geoff Walden wrote:
03 Aug 2022 01:48


The Tintoretto may have been this one, which was also in the Great Hall (that is, I believe this was by Tintoretto - it is very similar to identified works of his).

Image

I think it unlikely that it is a Tintoretto but rather a copy by a student of Canaletto or Bellotto
Check for the minor differences between the Hitler catalog photo and the two master works


https://www.getty.edu/art/collection/object/103RJP
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canaletto ... 6_1992.jpg

EDIT Sorry everyone
I inadvertently posted the wrong image - fixed now
Last edited by Max on 07 Aug 2022 00:22, edited 1 time in total.
Greetings from the Wide Brown.

Biber
Member
Posts: 507
Joined: 31 Jan 2007 22:56
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

Post by Biber » 06 Aug 2022 15:11

Oooh the intrigue of it all! I smell a sensational and suspenceful (and probably not very truthfull) History Channel show: "Fakes for the Fuhrer." Or is it "Duping 'Dolf?? It's the alliteration that really sells it.

Forgive me a bit of summer frivolity. I'm procrastinating mowing the lawn this sunny Saturday morning. Maybe if i wait long enough it'll rain. Carry on ...

User avatar
Hans1906
Member
Posts: 3820
Joined: 06 Jan 2020 23:13
Location: Deutschland

Re: Berghof Obersalzberg

Post by Hans1906 » 06 Aug 2022 15:31

I don't see anything comparable, everything is possible and impossible.

As a semi-educated "restorer" of paintings in this league, I refrain from judging.
Any answer would be wrong...


Hans
„Im Leben gibt’s die Bösen und die Guten. Und die dazwischen, das sind die Bagaluten.“

Return to “Propaganda, Culture & Architecture”