Reichskanzlei Thread

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Adam Carr
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Re: Reichskanzlei Thread

#1336

Post by Adam Carr » 10 Nov 2010, 02:34

I'm afraid "tu quoque" doesn't help your case. The fact that Stalin's regime was as you say it was doesn't make Hitler's regime any better, and more specifically doesn't excuse the behaviour of the Wehrmacht in Russia (or Poland, or Serbia, etc). This is officially acknowledged by the German government and the Bundeswehr. Time you caught up.

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Re: Reichskanzlei Thread

#1337

Post by robertmountfor » 10 Nov 2010, 02:35

thats a great image Johnny. Dont think its been seen often. the sections are clear to see. Off subject but your picture reminded me of a story that an architect friend of mine in Berlin told me yesterday, of how the cryllic daubings on the former reichstag are still causing debate. Apparentely most of them translate as I just f....d your nazi mother / sister etc.. Now I understand why its causing offence. I must say, the actual words never occured to me before.


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Re: Reichskanzlei Thread

#1338

Post by robertmountfor » 10 Nov 2010, 02:38

Adam Carr wrote:I'm afraid "tu quoque" doesn't help your case. The fact that Stalin's regime was as you say it was doesn't make Hitler's regime any better, and more specifically doesn't excuse the behaviour of the Wehrmacht in Russia (or Poland, or Serbia, etc). This is officially acknowledged by the German government and the Bundeswehr. Time you caught up.

Yes lets just forget about Katyn shall we? a glorious chapter in sovet history.
I believe 'Acknowledged by the German government' has zero meaning to any real historian.
For example, stauffenberg can only be described as a national hero as prescribed by 'the German government'
Well try telling that to Bergers family, Kortons or Schmundts. Not to mention that S didnt even bother to alert his co-con, Brandt who had his foot blown off.
He and his co conspiritors were generally accepted as traitors by all in the armed forces, and the people after the bomb plot, and for many decades after until the advent of a modern humbled and military neutered Germany came into play.

we shall agree not to agree I think Mr Carr.

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Adam Carr
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Re: Reichskanzlei Thread

#1339

Post by Adam Carr » 10 Nov 2010, 03:11

How does Katyn alter one way or the other the judgement that must be made about the behaviour of the Wehrmacht in the occupied countries? No-one disputes the nature of Stalin's regime (not me, anyway). But your initial comment was about the "proud eagles" of the Wehrmacht. My response is that the Wehrmacht, by its voluntary subservience to the Nazi regime and its complicity in the regime's genocidal policies, forfeited its eagles, its honour, and indeed its existence. As I've already noted, that fact is accepted by the new German army, which deserves great credit for emancipating itself from the legacy of German militarism. You might give them some credit for knowing more about German military honour than you do.

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Re: Reichskanzlei Thread

#1340

Post by robertmountfor » 10 Nov 2010, 10:44

you will never agree with my statement. that's clear. it has nothing whatsoever to do with what you are putting forward. russia does not have any respect for its historic relics, full stop. our imperial war museum treats all its exhibits with the respect they deserve. russia does not. end of story.

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Re: Reichskanzlei Thread

#1341

Post by palaisfan » 25 Nov 2010, 06:35

Superjax,

Greetings and thanks for thinking of my posts. Like ghostsoldier I have been busy with other research much of the past months but now and then drop in. I was told about your query. :D
Anyone know if Palaisfan is still an active member? I saw some of his old threads and he (among many others) seems veeeeeery knowledgeable about the New RC...and I know that he was looking for detailed floor plans...in particular he was asking about the steps connecting the old RC to the new...so he should take a look at the book I mentioned or the pics I saved if it's sold...I think one of them clearly shows the floor plans of that area!
You remember well! However, the connundrum I had was trying to find the floor plans of the 1930, or "soap company style" RK extension before it was altered, because the Speer changes gutted the southern part of it. So I was curious what the bottom floor layout was, because trying to match up some rooms, that was all. The other thing was sought a photo of the connecting hallway running north to the old RK from the right-angle join, as the plans show its character.

Your impressive book link and pictures I think is an original of Albert Speer's book on the Chancellery, and what is interesting is that if dated 1938, it is earlier by a year than the more commonly seen ones (though also rare) with a blue hard cover and gold reich eagle. To those Reichkskanzlei book enthusiasts here, like johnnyrocket and ghostsoldier among others, I point out that IF you have the Speer 1939/1940 book and pictures, this appears to be the same. Even the floor plan foldouts match. Just an fyi to consider before making any leap.
:wink:

I also wanted to comment on Vicctor's nice photo link. That post-war color picture of the back of the New RK is most interesting for the reason that it is one of the few have seen post-war that show the full length of the new dining room area far enough to almost reach the wing where Hitler's 1935 office is (the former red hall of the Old Chancellery). You can see it wrecked there on the extreme left. And Yes, the interior shot of the ruined new chancellery dining room I have never been seen before --- it nicely answers a long-standing question about what its condition was at the end of the war. I see the roof appears intact, so the bomb hits that set fire to the Hall of Models on the upper floor apparently landed further south and just missed it. This is interesting.

HTH,

- Palaisfan
Last edited by palaisfan on 25 Nov 2010, 17:57, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Reichskanzlei Thread

#1342

Post by palaisfan » 25 Nov 2010, 06:50

Looking thru Vicctor's site link,

Anyone know which room this is? There are one or two pictures on the site album for the Chancellery that are actually not the New Reichskanzlei, so may be another building. My guess is the Air Ministry perhaps.
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Re: Reichskanzlei Thread

#1343

Post by palaisfan » 25 Nov 2010, 07:00

Vicctor,

Since the caption said "Premises not yet identified" I wanted to advise what this is to help:

This picture is the upper hallway of the 1930 Chancellery Extension, the one with Hitler's small original office that he didn't like and ordered replaced. The doors on the left lead into the offices, and the nearest door just off the left are the ones that opened on the balcony office.

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Vicctor
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Re: Reichskanzlei Thread

#1344

Post by Vicctor » 30 Nov 2010, 06:48

palaisfan wrote:My guess is the Air Ministry perhaps.

Most likely that you are right. The signature under a photo could be and erroneous.

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Re: Reichskanzlei Thread

#1345

Post by Vicctor » 30 Nov 2010, 06:51

palaisfan wrote: "Premises not yet identified"
Thanks for the information! :)

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Re: Reichskanzlei Thread

#1346

Post by Vicctor » 30 Nov 2010, 12:33

After long searches, I have found the person at whom I "have stolen" the big photo of Chancellery. Probably it has m unpublished images...

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/view?q=b ... 7742132834

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Cor
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Re: Reichskanzlei Thread

#1347

Post by Cor » 01 Dec 2010, 22:59

From the same link the beneath picture is also interesting. Probably also the chancellery area or does anybody else think different?

http://lh6.ggpht.com/_YOWoUJVDnqs/SmpXp ... G_0020.jpg

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Re: Reichskanzlei Thread

#1348

Post by palaisfan » 02 Dec 2010, 07:15

Cor,

I think you are right. I have been thinking similar since seeing that picture directly following the first one. The small guage railway is a clue -- these were built to cart away rubble from large demolitions and heaps like the Chancellery demolition. The one there ran along the Voss Strasse, then up Wilhelm strasse -- if it made the next bend opposite, around the barracks on the west side, and then back in a circular pattern, you might see this view. I suggest close attention to the white building husk on the right --- is that the interior of the remains of the west end, or is that remains of one of the two barrack houses? If they can be matched, it would prove the point.

HTH,
palaisfan

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Kunstler
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Re: Reichskanzlei Thread

#1349

Post by Kunstler » 06 Dec 2010, 18:13

Adam Carr wrote:How does Katyn alter one way or the other the judgement that must be made about the behaviour of the Wehrmacht in the occupied countries?
I'd say it doesn't. What it does do however, is serve to illustrate how under conditions of total war atrocities are perpetrated by all sides. Hence the subsequent behaviour of the red army in Germany. Judgement has been passed on the Whermacht, but who judges the judges?
Adam Carr wrote:No-one disputes the nature of Stalin's regime (not me, anyway).
Given that the nature of Stalin's regime is indisputable I think that is a very wise thing. :)
Adam Carr wrote:My response is that the Wehrmacht,by its voluntary subservience to the Nazi regime and its complicity in the regime's genocidal policies, forfeited its eagles, its honour, and indeed its existence.
Following that logic, could it also be argued that the British and American forces in Europe played a subservient role to their ally Stalin, and thus were complicit in the war crimes committed by the red army? Almost certainly, if only by not actively preventing them. Turning a blind eye also means 'complicit'.

Was the handing over of the Cossacks, and of several hundred thousand Waffen SS and other personel to the Russians in 1945, knowing they faced almost certain death at the hands of a brutal regime any less a crime in principle than that for which the Whermacht is condemned?

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Re: Reichskanzlei Thread

#1350

Post by ghostsoldier » 06 Dec 2010, 18:30

Some friendly advice: As interesting as this discussion can be (and as guilty as I have been of contributing and fostering such conversations), we should probably refrain form getting too philosophical or discussing opinions of politics in this thread...if we strain too far off topic (and tempers get heated, as they invariably do), the mods are prone to shut this thread down...and we don't want to lose our precious RC thread! :wink: :)
Rob
"Even God cannot change the past. "
-Agathon (448 BC - 400 BC)

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