Reichskanzlei Thread

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Mannheim
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Re: Reichskanzlei Thread

Post by Mannheim » 08 Mar 2021 22:17

Thanks for the info, palaisfan. I have seen both photos before but didn't know that the first one was taken from the back of Goebbels' house. Interesting indeed as AFAIK there are few photos of the villa existent. I hunted down my photo of the water reservoir with its cover but it turns out that it's in the wrong place, is not a water reservoir and does not have a cover. So much for my memory ...
Perhaps with further investigation we may discover the purpose of those structures.
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Kein Irrtum ist so groß, der nicht seinen Zuhörer hat.

Mannheim
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Re: Reichskanzlei Thread

Post by Mannheim » 08 Mar 2021 22:23

Hmmm... come to think of it, I don't think I've ever noticed this building near the Orangerie before (red rectangle):
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Kein Irrtum ist so groß, der nicht seinen Zuhörer hat.

palaisfan
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Re: Reichskanzlei Thread

Post by palaisfan » 11 Mar 2021 01:05

You know, this picture seen before a little earlier in this thread takes on new relevance given your question. It shows that area of the garden looking toward the Brandenburg Gate, and one of those structures you were wondering about from its front. Perhaps this reveals more of its nature to someone? Its just in frame on the right hand side, nearly the center line.
berlin-rk_2.jpg
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Mannheim
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Re: Reichskanzlei Thread

Post by Mannheim » 11 Mar 2021 10:19

I am familiar with the photo, palaisfan, but I hadn't noticed until you pointed it out that the mystery building(s) appear in it. Hmmm... it just gets more and more interesting, doesn't it? I might dig out the Christoph Neubauer DVD and see if he mentions that area. Well spotted!
Kein Irrtum ist so groß, der nicht seinen Zuhörer hat.

palaisfan
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Re: Reichskanzlei Thread

Post by palaisfan » 19 Mar 2021 05:06

Mannheim wrote:
11 Mar 2021 10:19
I am familiar with the photo, palaisfan, but I hadn't noticed until you pointed it out that the mystery building(s) appear in it. Hmmm... it just gets more and more interesting, doesn't it? I might dig out the Christoph Neubauer DVD and see if he mentions that area. Well spotted!
Mannheim,

Sometimes you just stumble across something. Might have found a clue. After finding such an interesting description of the Munich apartment in Traudl Junge's book, I checked Christa Schroeder's book to see if maybe she had a similar visit description. Not really, but there was something else. Almost in passing, on page 137 (of the English version) she writes this.

( Context makes clear it is Sunday, March 1938 before Austria annexation - Not having an inkling of what lies ahead on on his mind that week, Schroeder asks a distracted Hitler while they are in the Music Room if he would like to go see her apartment then as they had talked about for a change of pace. He says yes. She goes on to say this: )
"My apartment was located in the Reich Chancellery park. In 1936 Hitler had commissioned Speer to build two houses in the English country-house style on the park side of Hermann-Goering-Strasse. These were originally to have been occupied solely by members of the the SS-Begleitkommando and their families. Shortly before they were completed it occurred to me how practical it would be if we secretaries could also live there..." would it not be possible "for his three female secretaries also to have have a flat each on the Hermann-Goring Strasse."
Long story short, Hitler said yes and had Speer include such. Even had Schaub give them money to furnish them. 1936 seems too soon to be the actual formal barrack buildings we know with the New Chancellery. There are photos and films showing them going up at the same time as the main structure. So these seem to be earlier---could those be exactly those dwellings? If anything these sound more associated with the 1936 building ops for the Olympics. Also, the date is exact--March 6, 1938 they are already finished and she has been living there for a bit. Doesn't what you are looking at look like miniature houses? What do you think.

Just wanted to point it out.

Mannheim
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Re: Reichskanzlei Thread

Post by Mannheim » 19 Mar 2021 21:48

Palaisfan
I think you've nailed it. The location and the timeline seem correct and the purpose of the buildings makes sense. Works for me. Well done! I'd better go find a copy of Christa Schroeder's book, one of the few I don't already have. Thanks!
Kein Irrtum ist so groß, der nicht seinen Zuhörer hat.

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Re: Reichskanzlei Thread

Post by Mannheim » 20 Mar 2021 21:31

Palaisfan: Berlin Luft Terror has just posted two interesting photos of the buildings in question. There seem to have been quite a few more. He doesn't acknowledge source so rather than my reproducing them here, you might check them out on his Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/BerlinLuftterror/
Kein Irrtum ist so groß, der nicht seinen Zuhörer hat.

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Re: Reichskanzlei Thread

Post by palaisfan » 31 Mar 2021 02:44

It was mentioned earlier that there are doubtless many unpublished photos of the Reichskanzlei. This is certainly likely, but another aspect is sometimes they are already out there, but overlooked because have no caption or are mis-captioned.

Here is an example of a photograph associated with the Chancellery that had no caption but is interesting from Harry von Gebhardt. This is in fact the north side of the 1930 Extension's courtyard -- if you look through that doorway you can see the grounds of the Old Chancellery Palace. This is the archway in the southeast wing of the H-shaped Reichskanzlerpalais where ambassadors would come to present their credentials before the new Chancellery was built. Its the flip side of the small inner courtyard of the Siedler or `Brüning building." Perhaps those more familiar with the uniform changes over time can pinpoint the year, but it seems must be in the 1933-1934 range because even the ground is not yet re-shaped; or, it is in the process of being re-worked. (Maybe those are Reichswehr uniforms however) Earlier in this thread the Siedler building was discussed and it pointed out no ground plan readily available to check. But the plan of the first No.1 upper floor can be matched with the window frame just visible and tends to confirm it.

Y(unknown).jpg
(Harry von Gerbhardt)

Go to this site for an example of mis-captioned photo. Its not the Presidential Palace of Hindenburg, but actually an unusual view of the garden side of the Chancellery in 1935 before the so-called Olympic Winter Garden is built onto it. (Search "birthday" and one or two others come up also)

https://www.hitler-archive.com/photo.php?p=err2JlE3
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Re: Reichskanzlei Thread

Post by AlainDucasse » 13 Apr 2021 10:07

Interesting floor plan of the Reich Chancellery extension (1928 – 1930 Erweiterungsbau für die Reichskanzlei, Wilhelmstrasse 78)
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Re: Reichskanzlei Thread

Post by AlainDucasse » 13 Apr 2021 10:16

palaisfan wrote:
31 Mar 2021 02:44
It was mentioned earlier that there are doubtless many unpublished photos of the Reichskanzlei. This is certainly likely, but another aspect is sometimes they are already out there, but overlooked because have no caption or are mis-captioned.

Here is an example of a photograph associated with the Chancellery that had no caption but is interesting from Harry von Gebhardt. This is in fact the north side of the 1930 Extension's courtyard -- if you look through that doorway you can see the grounds of the Old Chancellery Palace. This is the archway in the southeast wing of the H-shaped Reichskanzlerpalais where ambassadors would come to present their credentials before the new Chancellery was built. Its the flip side of the small inner courtyard of the Siedler or `Brüning building." Perhaps those more familiar with the uniform changes over time can pinpoint the year, but it seems must be in the 1933-1934 range because even the ground is not yet re-shaped; or, it is in the process of being re-worked. (Maybe those are Reichswehr uniforms however) Earlier in this thread the Siedler building was discussed and it pointed out no ground plan readily available to check. But the plan of the first No.1 upper floor can be matched with the window frame just visible and tends to confirm it.


Y(unknown).jpg

(Harry von Gerbhardt)

Go to this site for an example of mis-captioned photo. Its not the Presidential Palace of Hindenburg, but actually an unusual view of the garden side of the Chancellery in 1935 before the so-called Olympic Winter Garden is built onto it. (Search "birthday" and one or two others come up also)

https://www.hitler-archive.com/photo.php?p=err2JlE3
Thanks for the posting. How does it mach with this photo, which should be the "Ehenhof" (honor courtyard / inner courtyard) of the 1930 extension? Do you have any idea?
Courtyyard.jpg
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palaisfan
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Re: Reichskanzlei Thread

Post by palaisfan » 13 Apr 2021 14:26

AlainDucasse wrote:
13 Apr 2021 10:16
palaisfan wrote:
31 Mar 2021 02:44
It was mentioned earlier that there are doubtless many unpublished photos of the Reichskanzlei. This is certainly likely, but another aspect is sometimes they are already out there, but overlooked because have no caption or are mis-captioned.

Here is an example of a photograph associated with the Chancellery that had no caption but is interesting from Harry von Gebhardt. This is in fact the north side of the 1930 Extension's courtyard -- if you look through that doorway you can see the grounds of the Old Chancellery Palace. This is the archway in the southeast wing of the H-shaped Reichskanzlerpalais where ambassadors would come to present their credentials before the new Chancellery was built. Its the flip side of the small inner courtyard of the Siedler or `Brüning building." Perhaps those more familiar with the uniform changes over time can pinpoint the year, but it seems must be in the 1933-1934 range because even the ground is not yet re-shaped; or, it is in the process of being re-worked. (Maybe those are Reichswehr uniforms however) Earlier in this thread the Siedler building was discussed and it pointed out no ground plan readily available to check. But the plan of the first No.1 upper floor can be matched with the window frame just visible and tends to confirm it.


Y(unknown).jpg

(Harry von Gerbhardt)

Go to this site for an example of mis-captioned photo. Its not the Presidential Palace of Hindenburg, but actually an unusual view of the garden side of the Chancellery in 1935 before the so-called Olympic Winter Garden is built onto it. (Search "birthday" and one or two others come up also)

https://www.hitler-archive.com/photo.php?p=err2JlE3
Thanks for the posting. How does it mach with this photo, which should be the "Ehenhof" (honor courtyard / inner courtyard) of the 1930 extension? Do you have any idea?
Courtyyard.jpg
AlainDucasse,
And Thank You, for posting that interesting plan. It looks like is a first draft before who would occupy the rooms was settled. Very interesting.

On your question --- it does match with that photo. Is is the opposite side. If you were standing in the port there and looking across, you would see what was posted. Your picture is the south face of the Inner Court. There is another picture that makes clearer the nature of that lower doorway in post # 2048 where Ambassadors presented is the north face; you can also see it on your plan posted as that hollow rectangle with staircase to the right of the circular symbol court. I will find it. The one odd thing as said is the ground--perhaps in process of being changed. The landscape of your view changed at least twice.

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Re: Reichskanzlei Thread

Post by palaisfan » 13 Apr 2021 15:00

AlainDucasse wrote:
13 Apr 2021 10:07
Interesting floor plan of the Reich Chancellery extension (1928 – 1930 Erweiterungsbau für die Reichskanzlei, Wilhelmstrasse 78)
On closer examination, it looks like your floor plans are one of the proposed designs submitted for the contest for selection. It differs enough from the actual final result as to appear to be different design, but directly contemporary. Compare to the No.1 upper floor plan of the actual J. Siedler design from Zur Geschichte des Reichskanzler Palais - a monograph by Hermann Pünder. This would be the layout to compare to your plans right-hand plan, that is the comparable No.1 upper floor. You see the rooms have similar intended occupants and the common part of the wing of the Old Chancellery. Yet it is this 1928 plan with just a few changes internally that became the one.
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Re: Reichskanzlei Thread

Post by Whithaus » 17 Apr 2021 00:11

I have often wondered what route would have been taken from the private quarters in the old Chancellery to the large study in Speer’s new Chancellery. The most direct route on the ground floor would have gone through the dining hall, which seems awkward.

The plan of the upper floor, however, seems to offer a more convenient route through the library and model room to the staircase, which led directly to an inner corridor that led to the study.

My question is what were the rooms used for that you would have to pass through on the way to the library? The rooms to the right of the library on the plan?
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Re: Reichskanzlei Thread

Post by Wollolo » 13 May 2021 09:58

Whithaus wrote:
17 Apr 2021 00:11
I have often wondered what route would have been taken from the private quarters in the old Chancellery to the large study in Speer’s new Chancellery. The most direct route on the ground floor would have gone through the dining hall, which seems awkward.

The plan of the upper floor, however, seems to offer a more convenient route through the library and model room to the staircase, which led directly to an inner corridor that led to the study.

My question is what were the rooms used for that you would have to pass through on the way to the library? The rooms to the right of the library on the plan?
Christoph Neubauer mentioned that there was the so-called "Rote Salon"
unfortunately i have no idea how it looked like

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Re: Reichskanzlei Thread

Post by palaisfan » 16 May 2021 01:30

Whithaus, Wollolo,

If you look at post # 2412 on this page, see the plan. The "Roter Saal" is the same as the Red Salon, the Hall that was refurbished by Speer to be Hitler's real working office. He actually didn't change the walls and even paintings much, but shortly after chandeliers were exchanged for the original somewhat funky early 1930's electric lights design to the standard ones you see as Hitler's office. Its important to note that Hitler's real study/office was neither the giant one facing the garden or his small private one, but this medium sized one in use by early 1934.

This 1931 picture, you can kind of see the unusual overhead electric lights that Troost Speer replaced. This was shot outside the window during the British PM's visit, and Albert Einstein was one of the guests. Unfortunately I don't recall just which link had it. (You can also see them still there in the common picture when Goebbels first joined the 1933 cabinet because that is before Speer's changes)

AlbertEinstein-July27-1931-old-lights-Red-Hall.jpg
Now compare those overheads to how they look after the Speer-Troost redesign in 1934. The window on the right is the same one looking through in the picture above. You can see the painting too. Picture the walls as somewhat red -- it was the same during Weimar. (By the way, that window on the left will disappear when the New Chancellery is adjoined to Hitler's office.)(Library of Congress).

Red-Hall-after-TroostHitlersOffice.jpg
Anyway, if you look at the top (west) of the Roter Saal/Hitler real office there seems to be a room you can go on back from behind the office. There is just the start of a continuation from that door. Then look at Whithaus' post right after. That shows by a small room or two from the back of the former Red Hall now office there is a direct route into the New RK Library. The placement wasn't random -- in the 1930 building the library was on the third floor, above the Red Hall. Anyway, though not described directly it seems Hitler just went to behind his office desk, to a door there, and from there made his way westward into the New RK Library. I may be wrong however.

- palaisfan
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