The Munich Thread

Discussions on the propaganda, architecture and culture in the Third Reich.
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Keir
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Re: The Munich Thread

Post by Keir » 03 Jan 2012 09:43

Climbed atop the remains of the ehrentempel beside the former Fuehrerbau yesterday to see how construction of the NS-Documentation Centre is going; the pavement alongside it has been closed.
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Schultze
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Re: The Munich Thread

Post by Schultze » 03 Jan 2012 15:49

This is vandalism in action. Cultural and historical vandalism. They couldn't build it in such a way that the cellar structures were left intact could they? The more I see of this blinkered short-sightedness, the more I want to puke.You would not destroy the remains of a castle to build a castle interpretation centre would you? No.But it's a case of "Oh Adolf was here once...oh no I've just messed myself because I can't bear to think about that name and history without becoming all hysterical". Get a grip and grow a pair. What next? Pull down the former Fuhrerbau and replace that with a plaque? What about the Haus der Kunst? He quite liked it in there. Lets trash the Osteria and the Cafe Luitpold as well while we do it. Only the Germans have German history...and far be it for a foreigner to tell them how to deal with their past....but really. We are not talking about Voldemort here....this - and instances like this - may not seem that big a deal to some...but what about future generations? 100,200,300 years time? They may not be interested in history and their past...but at least give them the option of seeing what all the fuss was about

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Keir
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Re: The Munich Thread

Post by Keir » 03 Jan 2012 19:38

I always appreciate your invariably refreshing view, Schultze, but it's not like they tore down the buildinge for the purpose of the museum; my impression was that the allies bombed the hell out of the place and that there was an inconvenient hole in the ground for the past few decades (since 1947, at any rate). At least they're making use of the space, no?

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Reichssammler
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Re: The Munich Thread

Post by Reichssammler » 03 Jan 2012 19:48

Hey guys,

as I just wrote on the Reichskanzlei thread I want to share some parts of my whole collection, some munich photos are there too:

https://rapidshare.com/files/70989167/A ... _forum.rar
Last edited by Reichssammler on 04 Jan 2012 07:40, edited 1 time in total.

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ghostsoldier
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Re: The Munich Thread

Post by ghostsoldier » 04 Jan 2012 02:12

Reichssammler wrote:Hey guys,

as I just wrote on the Reichskanzlei thread I want to share some parts of my whole collection, some munich photos are there too:

https://rapidshare.com/files/709891667/ ... _forum.rar
I'm downloading it now, my friend....awesome! :)

Rob
"Even God cannot change the past. "
-Agathon (448 BC - 400 BC)

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Geoff Walden
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Re: The Munich Thread

Post by Geoff Walden » 04 Jan 2012 11:52

Keir wrote:I always appreciate your invariably refreshing view, Schultze, but it's not like they tore down the buildinge for the purpose of the museum; my impression was that the allies bombed the hell out of the place and that there was an inconvenient hole in the ground for the past few decades (since 1947, at any rate). At least they're making use of the space, no?
Hi Keir,

Schultze was referring to the basement of the Braunes Haus, which was intact but buried. The basement rooms were excavated in 2006, revealing several interesting artifacts. Many of us had hoped that the powers-that-be would use the basement rooms in some way for the exhibit - something like the "Topography of Terror" in Berlin. But it's not to be ...

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Keir
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Re: The Munich Thread

Post by Keir » 04 Jan 2012 14:09

Thanks for clarifying, Geoff. In that case this seems to be an abuse of an historical site. What's the point of building a 'documentation centre' on the site one is documenting if that site is obliterated in the process?

Schultze
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Re: The Munich Thread

Post by Schultze » 04 Jan 2012 18:48

This is the point I was making. The cellars were in pretty good shape - walls still standing, surfaces still intact

I would guess that it is deemed "safe" to walk in the footprints of the abused (cf. Typography des Terrors" Berlin, or "The way of the prisoners" at the Dachau Memorial, but far too "dangerous" - lest one begin to empathise with Hitler and his minions in the cellar of the Brown House.

Destruction of sites from this period is all too common...just look at the mess that is the Berghof area.

Unfortunately, there is a vogue for destroying stuff - the fear of course is that it may become some sort of shrine. Obviously, the powers that be have great belief and faith in the fact that Germany is a Democracy. By destroying the past - however unpalatable it may seem to some -we risk repeating the same grave errors that were made by both the 3rd Reich and the Soviet Union at it's worst. By this I mean that both regimes used and abused history and archaeology to "prove" a political, social or racist point of view.(Of course this still goes on today in other countries....but that is another topic)

The treatment of the remains of the BH is a prominent example of this destruction of or subversion of the historical and archaeological record but it happens everyday and you probably wouldn't know it. Just a few months back I was working on an excavation in Moosach. We had good Bronze Age remains, numerous wells of various dates (one with a burial inserted), a house that was burnt down...pottery evidence tied it in very well with the burning of the village by the Swedes in 1632.....and two bunkers of unusual design.These were probably associated with a nearby Flak battery. All of the above received intense attention - survey, sketches, total excavation and yielded very good finds.All except the bunkers. The bunkers got a few photos before being ripped out - the firm and the Landesampt were not interested.

I don't mean to over react - but this stuff IS a finite resource and when it is gone, it is gone. It is also just as much a part of our history as a Roman fort on the Danube or the Frauenkirche. We don't see political issues enter into questions regarding how and whether they should be preserved for the future....although a quick look at any book will tell you that the Romans were also quite vicious...as was the regime and religion behind the Frauenkirche if you failed to fit with their expectations...

Pax,

Schultze

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Keir
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Re: The Munich Thread

Post by Keir » 05 Jan 2012 18:15

Does anyone have any info about the history of Park Cafe? I took the wife and baby there a few days ago and noticed three busts on the façade of the rear overlooking the biergarten, but hadn't thought of taking photos of them. They look very similar to the Zentrale and was built I assume at the same time; 1934. You can see them in this photo;
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friend_of_Obersalzberg
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Re: The Munich Thread

Post by friend_of_Obersalzberg » 05 Jan 2012 21:47

Keir wrote:Does anyone have any info about the history of Park Cafe?
Yes, of course: The Park Cafe itself. It has a homepage. A part of the history (the IMPORTANT part ;-)), copy and paste from the website:

The building in which the Park Café is located was built in 1935 – 1937 after plans prepared by the architect Oswald Bieber. The building at Sophienstrasse 7 in the old Botanical Gardens originally served as a coffee house and pavilion for exhibitions.

The main entrance of the neoclassical structure is dominated by the portico with its four columns. To the right and left of the main building are the two wings, behind which are the idyllic beer garden with its own bar and small kitchen. The dance café was already an established part of Munich nightlife in the 1960s and 1970s. Over the years, it became known as one of the coolest clubs on the Munich scene.

A- and B-list celebrities have used the café as their chosen rendezvous. The “Blub Club” met here for many years. Hugh Hefner came here to celebrate with his Playmates. The 089 Bar has recently had to be given a temporary home. The internal rooms were currently closed for technical reasons and the whole building was undergoing refurbishment with the aim of restoring the original neoclassical architecture. The result is a traditional Bavarian hostelry with beer garden and dance café. The brand new Park Café finaly opened on february 24th 2007.
We´re looking forward to serve You in the Park Café!


Did you know…

“Der Stenz”

A “Stenz” is a slang expression used to describe, among other things, a dandy and lady’s man.
Helmut Dietl, director of the legendary 1982 German TV series “Monaco Franze – Der Ewige Stenz”, described a “Stenz” as follows:
“With a sort of blowsy elegance, always a proud step ahead of the current fashion, the “Stenz” has made the upkeep of his head of hair and of his shoes (of which he possesses countless pairs) into a sort of cult ritual. He considers correct manners (or at least, what he thinks of as correct manners)to be highly important but never forgets to maintain those central aspects that form the core of his allure: always appear cool and laidback.”

Greetings

Ralf

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friend_of_Obersalzberg
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Re: The Munich Thread

Post by friend_of_Obersalzberg » 07 Jan 2012 12:34

Ohh, I have some photos. From the book "Architektur in München":

The front of the Park Cafe
In the garden is a fountain:
One of the busts

Greetings
Ralf
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muller1945
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Re: The Munich Thread

Post by muller1945 » 07 Jan 2012 17:57

Kinda of funny how the new germany is doing just what the nazis did to the reichstag, just tear it down and wipe it away from history. Hitler said germany would be great again and now with have a new european reich to proof it lol.

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Keir
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Re: The Munich Thread

Post by Keir » 07 Jan 2012 20:25

Cheers, Ralf. Here's the Neptune fountain (sculpted 1937 by Nazi sculptor Josef Wackerle) then and now:
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palaisfan
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Re: The Munich Thread

Post by palaisfan » 08 Jan 2012 08:05

muller1945,
Kinda of funny how the new germany is doing just what the nazis did to the reichstag, just tear it down and wipe it away from history. Hitler said germany would be great again and now with have a new european reich to proof it lol.
I don't understand? Hitler and the Nazis actually did not tear down the Reichstag. They simply discontinued using it and failed to repair the damaged dome and ceilings. The parallel to what Schultze was talking about would be IF they DID tear down the Reichstag and sweep away its remains. But I am sure I misunderstood what you meant, as it is notorious the Reichstag building is still there.

Schultze,
"I don't mean to over react - but this stuff IS a finite resource and when it is gone, it is gone. It is also just as much a part of our history as a Roman fort on the Danube or the Frauenkirche. We don't see political issues enter into questions regarding how and whether they should be preserved for the future....although a quick look at any book will tell you that the Romans were also quite vicious...as was the regime and religion behind the Frauenkirche if you failed to fit with their expectations..."
I don't think the problem is political issues regarding if a regime was vicious ---- I think the whole problem stems from the fact that it is still in living memory. Mongol artifacts don't provoke destruction, or leftovers of the Vandals. The examples you cited survive because their victims or those affected by them are long gone. Unfortunately for the preservation aspect, it seems the artifacts are being destroyed faster than the political touchiness is passing. Or in some cases, like the Deuttschlandhalle, demolished because it is no longer valued, but not destroyed out of pique either. I did not know the cellar of the Braun Haus had been preserved as late as this decade --- one can only only wonder what it might have revealed about Troost's building methods that could have been quite interesting, perhaps even a buried photo album or written works, who knows. The pre-1933 period of NSDAP history is murky enough where small things like that could hold some insights. A pity.

- Palaisfan

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Keir
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Re: The Munich Thread

Post by Keir » 08 Jan 2012 11:35

Palaisfan- I have the same thoughts when I see the swastikas in the iron grills of the former luftgaukommando or the huge reichsadler that maintains its perch of the former Oberfinanzpräsdium. Two examples which are in the service of the same government which feels so concerned about one site whilst expecting any citizen who was a former victim of Hitlerism to have no option but to walk past and under such visible reminders.

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