Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Discussions on the propaganda, architecture and culture in the Third Reich.
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Geli
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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by Geli » 16 Jan 2010 09:05

My plans are dated 1935.

The room you see from the outside in the photo atop this thread, the room with the balcony and the 2 rounded sections with many windows, is the Living Room. My plans include diagrams of furniture, and it looks like one rounded section was a sitting room and the other had a desk.

My plans show an unlabeled room off the living room. The wall is open there; it's really more of an extension of the living room. There is a library, a dining room, a triangular "Halle" with a fireplace, a small kitchen, a "Garde" (cloakroom)...
There are two rooms near the kitchen marked "Zimmer" -- I was told that those were the servants' rooms. Hitler and Geli's rooms had a bathroom between them.
The dining room and kitchen are at opposite ends of the house. There are no closets. I was surprised by how small the apartment was.

Hitler & Geli's rooms overlooked a courtyard.

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Geoff Walden
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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by Geoff Walden » 19 Jan 2010 13:25

Geli wrote:Yes, I have those. I'm afraid I don't have any titles to add. But maybe you can find Henny Hoffman (Henrietta Von Shirach's) autobiography. I know she wrote in German, and I've often seen her books quoted, but I never found an English version of them. She knew Geli, though I'm pretty sure she was a few years younger. I believe Henny & Baldur named their daughter after Geli.
Hi all,

Geli, "Der Preis der Herrlichkeit" was translated into English as "The Price of Glory" (London, Frederick Muller Ltd., 1960). It seems to be a good translation (I haven't read the entire English edition). It has mostly different illustrations than the German edition, and not as many. The English edition does have a photo of the four von Schirach children, and the daughter's name is given as Angelika, so I suppose they called her Geli.

Henny's other books, I have not seen in English ("Anekdoten um Hitler" (Berg/Starnberger See, Tuermer Verlag, 1980), and "Frauen um Hitler" (Munich, F.A. Herbig, 1983).

Geoff

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Antikoerper
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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by Antikoerper » 21 Jan 2010 09:34

I´ve found a site on the internet, which lists all the places Hitler visited during his life. There´s also a Munich section, where his and Evas homes are listed, including some pictures. I don´t want to post them here, because of copyright and so on..., but there are a few pictures from the flat, when you scroll down a bit: http://www.hitlerpages.com/pagina16.html
"Wer aber vor der Vergangenheit die Augen verschließt, wird blind für die Gegenwart."
R. von Weizsäcker

palaisfan
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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by palaisfan » 23 Jan 2010 08:47

Hi Geli,

Your description is very interesting, and it must have been fascinating to get to tour the apartment. Its kind of appropriate, given your screen name that you also got to go there as you said. I think I can contribute to the thread, and give you an easy reference when referring to your plans for the sake of the others.

Once online, many years ago while researching the 1938 Munich Conference , I am across a partial plan of the apartment. It was not possible to save it the way displayed, so I sketched it out with a pen. What made it interesting was that it had original german captions, but english words had been superimposed. My sketch reproduces what could make out of the german, and where I couldn't read it, I didn't force the meaning. I knew that later I might come across a text description that i could match to the plan with the few photos I had seen. For example, though cut off on the map seen, # 6 seems to line up with the room where Chamberlain was photographed. I sketched furniture as guide in case could be matched later.

Can you give us a description of the missing part of the plan using what is here as reference? Just a general idea of number of rooms or what were. Is the bedroom with bathroom between it the one in the upper left corner (I think so)? Which end or room is the dinging room?

(I think "north" is actually bottom here, by the way, and the apartment from the air has a kind of boomerang look rather than right angle).

Any help in placing some of the names or the missing portions would be welcome. Your description above clearly matches much of it, including the odd triangular room. With luck a general picture can be formed this way and the thread can match up some of the pictures like those found by Antikoerper as they turn up.

Edit: Looking at the sketch again, comparing to sites referenced on this thread. I now realize that # 14 is the kitchen and matches the scene on Geoff Walden's munich page from LIFE. On the same page, the tub with Lee Miller does match #2. Good. #3 seems to be Geli's room -- it matches Antikoerper's link with slanted wall.

thanks,

- palaisfan

(If anything or a room number is unclear because of image's size, I can clarify. The hash marks are windows, and dashed lines are presumed walls or the outline of the complex. The scale and walls should be about right, if not the furniture, I drew it carefully to preserve those relations. The left hand rounded section I am guessing had the desk, it looks like maybe the object that was cut off. The plan may have dated from the Munich conference -- the furniture seems to match; it won't match the modern arrangement)
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Adam Carr
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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by Adam Carr » 23 Jan 2010 09:37

On the current status of the apartment. Hitler in his personal testament left all his property to the NSDAP, or if the NSDAP no longer existed, "to the state." Since his legal residence was in Bavaria, a postwar Bavarian court decided that "the state" meant the Land of Bavaria (this was before the establishment of the Federal Republic I think). So the state of Bavaria has owned the apartment ever since. (Bavaria also owns the copyrights to Mein Kampf, a nice little earner.) The Bavarian authorities decided to lease it to the police for use as storage, on condition it was not open to the public. It's hard to see what else they could have done. Demolishing the whole block, at a time of acute housing shortage, would have been unfair to the other residents. It could hardly have been sold to a private tenant. Creating a "Hitler museum" in central Munich would have been unthinkable in the 1950s, and would still be pretty problematic today. I think "Geli" was very lucky to be allowed inside and I think it will be a long time before the status of the apartment changes.

On Frau Winter, I read somewhere that she stole some of Hitler's personal effects such as his passport and driver's licence, at the end of the war, and was later arrested trying to sell them. They are now locked up somewhere by the Bavarian authorities. Before she died, after many years of silence, she gave an interview in which she said that Hitler and Eva Braun had a "normal" sex life, contradicting some of the fruitier theories about Hitler's sexuality.

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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by palaisfan » 23 Jan 2010 18:01

Adam,
Demolishing the whole block, at a time of acute housing shortage, would have been unfair to the other residents. It could hardly have been sold to a private tenant. Creating a "Hitler museum" in central Munich would have been unthinkable in the 1950s, and would still be pretty problematic today. I think "Geli" was very lucky to be allowed inside and I think it will be a long time before the status of the apartment changes.
That makes sense. The whole matter would be greatly eased by the authorities simply publishing a room by room photo brochure of the apartment with pictures (taken apparently during non-use) like the ones seen on Antikoeper's link. Even that would just give an vague idea, as here. In historical terms, the visual value has already been altered. It seems none of the furniture has been retained, or kept in its original position (even the Lee Miller tub apparently ended up in the Furherbau basement). Other than the floor plan, the rooms bear no resemblance to the 1930's period. Insights into Hitler's life or the setting of the Munich meeting events would better come from photos of how it looked at the time. Probably Troost archives have that kind of thing. (Until Geoff Walden's pages and confirmed by mentions on this thread, I had not known that Troost had designed some of the furnishings -- this allows some speculative comparison to the Fuhrerbau interior). Antikoerper's thread has the potential to at least in conjunction with Geli's posts to line up photos with a position.

- palaisfan

Oberhessin
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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by Oberhessin » 23 Jan 2010 22:50

Where are the files of the interview with the housekeeper? In which archive?

I have visited the flat yesterday, there will be no public viewing of the rooms and the "luftschutzkeller" in the future because of political reasons.

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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by palaisfan » 23 Jan 2010 23:51

Oberhessin,
I have visited the flat yesterday, there will be no public viewing of the rooms and the "luftschutzkeller" in the future because of political reasons.
By visited, have you been inside? Do you know if the last room (# 1) on the left of the sketch plan is the end of the flat, or is there a room (#5) where the question mark is? #1 seemed to cover the end of the hall.

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Adam Carr
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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by Adam Carr » 24 Jan 2010 07:31

Oberhessen, I don't remember where I read the reference to Frau Winter's interview. It may have been in Angela Lambert's biography of Eva Braun, but I am away from home at present and I can't check. It may also have been in reference to that stupid book that came out some years ago claiming Hitler was gay. Winter was one of the very few people Hitler trusted with knowledge of his personal life. (It was she of course who found Geli Raubal's body, told Hitler of her death, and stonewalled the police until Hitler could get back to Munich.) Winter said that it was she who changed the sheets at both Prinzregentenplatz and the Berghof, so she knew that Hitler and Braun had a "normal" sex life at least until 1939, when Hiter became preoccupied with the war.

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Antikoerper
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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by Antikoerper » 24 Jan 2010 13:13

Oberhessin wrote: I have visited the flat yesterday, there will be no public viewing of the rooms and the "luftschutzkeller" in the future because of political reasons.
And I still can´t imagine, what this "political reasons" should be. What is so bad about some unfurnished rooms, visited by people who are just interested in history and want to know how this apartment looked like? I personally think, they expect masses of people, marching trough those rooms with a high raised right arm, screaming "Heil Hitler"....well, too bad. :?

@Palaisfan
After reading an older post of Geli again, I would think, that #1 is Hitlers bedroom, this would also fit to the long, narrow room showed in the picture of the site I´ve linked here. Wasn´t it Frau Reichart and her mother who also had rooms in the flat? I would assume, that they could be the ones, titled #4, in the lower right corner, and then the number below #13 could be their shared bathroom. But it is everything a "could", I´m only sure about #1.

@Adam
Do you know, when the Döring couple started their work as housekeepers at the Berghof? Because, what I´ve heard and read all the time, is, that the wife of Mr. Döring was the one who checked their sheets. But it could be, that she was only one of the chambermaids and a very curious one, too. May you could give clearness to me. :)
"Wer aber vor der Vergangenheit die Augen verschließt, wird blind für die Gegenwart."
R. von Weizsäcker

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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by palaisfan » 24 Jan 2010 17:29

Antikoerper,
After reading an older post of Geli again, I would think, that #1 is Hitlers bedroom, this would also fit to the long, narrow room showed in the picture of the site I´ve linked here. Wasn´t it Frau Reichart and her mother who also had rooms in the flat? I would assume, that they could be the ones, titled #4, in the lower right corner, and then the number below #13 could be their shared bathroom. But it is everything a "could", I´m only sure about #1.
That's an excellent point though, yes, the linked site bedroom does look oddly long and narrow. So maybe the best conclusion is the bedroom sealed off and covered the width of the floor at the left (east?) end. Certainly the caption Master Bedroom lines up with that, and it is significant that the bathroom that best matches the Lee Miller photo is next to that end. You made a good suggestion regarding the #4 spaces, and I think you have it. It is significant that in that plan sketched those spaces lacked furniture -- looked "uninvolved" and empty, i.e., not part of the group per-se. The nine-room figure oft-quoted would also support the idea that except for the Living Room-Study half-off frame (and maybe the Library if # 7?), everything else is shown.

I guess if we could figure out the dining room, we would just about have it, as the most seen room, the famous study/living room where Prime Minster Chamberlain visited is definitely #6, and the library is probably # 7 for the wall parts there. Maybe Johnnryocket will want to do one of his colorful plan charts for this. :)

Has anyone here photographed the other side of the complex, the courtyard side, or seen it? It would be useful to try to match up windows. Though it seems clear that outside and below #1,#2 and #3 is the courtyard Geli mentioned.

Regarding,
And I still can´t imagine, what this "political reasons" should be. What is so bad about some unfurnished rooms, visited by people who are just interested in history and want to know how this apartment looked like? I personally think, they expect masses of people, marching trough those rooms with a high raised right arm, screaming "Heil Hitler"....well, too bad.


In the Munich authorities defense --- think of the logistics...of having to have the floor open for touring at intervals, while also still in use. Or some of the newspaper chatter and undesired harrassment they might undergo. That is why I suggest they instead simply make a brochure or booklet to sell, with the plan and rooms "that used to be" pictures in it -- not unlike the Berlin exhibits. They would get the customers of those pretty much only interested in history and avoid any issues with activists, TV sensationalists, and whatever `political reasons' might cover. It wouldn't be hard --they could have an official take pictures of each room and match them to "before". Such a booklet might even be "better" because presumably would have 1930 period illustrations of each room from the archives. For example, such would have satisfied what I was curious about -- wouldn't even try to bother them getting access; the rooms are too different. It would "defuse" many (but not all of course) such requests I imagine.

- palaisfan

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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by palaisfan » 24 Jan 2010 19:30

On this subject, found this interesting bit while searching for pictures of the interior from 1938 meeting or other times to match to the plan:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/5310450.stm

Apparently in fall 2006 a London dealer was selling Hitler's desk from Prinzregentenplatz. Though the writer doesn't seem to realize that the Sept 30 meeting with Chamberlain is distinct from the Munich conference just prior, the meaning does seem to imply the apartment desk is the one here. The article containsu useful details, like who made the furniture, and when delivered (November 1929).

Of interest, it doesn't mention Troost's role in the furnishing and design, but maybe the desk was the exception.

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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by Antikoerper » 25 Jan 2010 16:02

palaisfan wrote: In the Munich authorities defense --- think of the logistics...of having to have the floor open for touring at intervals, while also still in use. Or some of the newspaper chatter and undesired harrassment they might undergo. That is why I suggest they instead simply make a brochure or booklet to sell, with the plan and rooms "that used to be" pictures in it -- not unlike the Berlin exhibits. They would get the customers of those pretty much only interested in history and avoid any issues with activists, TV sensationalists, and whatever `political reasons' might cover.
I agree with you in that point, it would really be a big problem to organize the touring, even if the building would´nt be used. It´s just, I always get a little bit angry about the way we german people are dealing with our past. Be german, interested in Third Reich history and you´re a Neo-Nazi immediatly, at least that is, what most people will think of you then. :roll:
When I was in Munich last August, I´ve made a tour that dealed in detail with nationalsocialist buildings of the city, we went to the Königsplatz, Feldherrenhalle and so on, but not to Prinzregentenplatz. It was my luck, that we were only 4 people, so I asked the man who made the tour, how Munich deals with it´s past, remembering it was "Die Hauptstadt der Bewegung". And he said, that interest and awareness only comes slowly, that the city had massive problems dealing with it and that even after nearly 65 years have passed, it is just a vague plan to build a big documentation center on the grounds of the Braunes Haus(it is planned to come about 2014 or 2015, may you´ve heard of it). I think this is also a point to consider, when thinking about the "touristic" aspect of Hitlers flat.
Why don´t you send your idea of the brochure to the mayor of Munich? Such a suggestion coming from abroad maybe makes them think about it, considering they would make a good money with it, because there are many interested people outside. :D

Regarding the desk:
I don´t think it was designed by Troost. I`ve heard, that only most of the furniture was designed by her, but not all, and after all, it does not fit with the bombastic and sturdy design of the other things. Although I´m wondering, why just the desk for Hitlers office, which really is an important and representative room for a statesman, wasn´t designed by his favorite interior designer(?).

EDIT: I just looked at the plan again. Is it possible that #16 (or the one right next to #3) is the dining room? I´m not able to read, what you´ve written to that number. :) But I think it would make sense, considering it lay adverse to the living room.

- Antikoerper
"Wer aber vor der Vergangenheit die Augen verschließt, wird blind für die Gegenwart."
R. von Weizsäcker

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Annelie
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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by Annelie » 25 Jan 2010 17:17

I agree that it wouldn't really be feasible to conduct public tours of Hitler's private apartment.
But, I also believe that it shouldn't be on some tour list because it was Hitler's apartment.
Its a moot subject really since that will never happen.
That is why I suggest they instead simply make a brochure or booklet to sell, with the plan and rooms "that used to be" pictures in it -- not unlike the Berlin exhibits
that is an excellent idea and the revenue I am sure they
wouldn't reject.

I believe all public and government buildings and even battlefields should be on a tour because not only is it for educational purposes but it is historical.

Private flats and apartments to be seem to go to another level in this particular subject. Different
somehow when people visit Mozarts living quarters? Anyone have opinions?

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Geli
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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by Geli » 26 Jan 2010 01:57

Oberhessin wrote:Where are the files of the interview with the housekeeper? In which archive?
The police at #16 have it in their file. I made a copy of part of it. The Winters' statements are in what I have. I don't think the police have the original though.

Does Germany have a big archive like America's Library of Congress?

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