Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Discussions on the propaganda, architecture and culture in the Third Reich.
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Geli
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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by Geli » 26 Jan 2010 02:19

palaisfan wrote:Has anyone here photographed the other side of the complex, the courtyard side, or seen it? It would be useful to try to match up windows. Though it seems clear that outside and below #1,#2 and #3 is the courtyard Geli mentioned.


Yes, I have. I was looking at my photos the other day, trying to match up the windows.
palaisfan wrote:In the Munich authorities defense --- think of the logistics...of having to have the floor open for touring at intervals, while also still in use. Or some of the newspaper chatter and undesired harrassment they might undergo. That is why I suggest they instead simply make a brochure or booklet...
I took a lot of photos; I was thinking of making a brochure or booklet. But it's a lot of work. I would want to add other people's photos as well. The ones on that link are very nice and would work well with the photos that I took to give an overall sense of the apartment. And such a brochure would need Lee Miller's photos and some other photos from the time period.
Last edited by Geli on 26 Jan 2010 02:36, edited 1 time in total.

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Geli
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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by Geli » 26 Jan 2010 02:22

palaisfan wrote: Do you know if the last room (# 1) on the left of the sketch plan is the end of the flat, or is there a room (#5) where the question mark is? #1 seemed to cover the end of the hall.
The sketch you posted is very much like the plans that I have. Perhaps the book you found it in used the same plans. Room #5 (with the question mark) does not exist. Room #1 is the end.

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Geli
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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by Geli » 26 Jan 2010 02:30

[quote="Antikoerper I just looked at the plan again. Is it possible that #16 (or the one right next to #3) is the dining room? I´m not able to read, what you´ve written to that number. :) But I think it would make sense, considering it lay adverse to the living room.[/quote]

No, the dining room is #4 and #5 on the left.

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Adam Carr
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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by Adam Carr » 26 Jan 2010 02:52

I can tell you that the people who live around Prinzregentenplatz today wouldn't be at all happy at the apartment being opened for public view, or made into a museum. I got some very dirty looks just standing outside taking photos.

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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by Oberhessin » 26 Jan 2010 06:33

Yes, I have been inside, in the flat and in the Luftschutzkeller.
It is a police station now, you just cannot go inside their offices. And they explained why there is no public viewing.
The police is very much concerned that there will be no second "Wunsiedel".
I will have a brief look on the map.
As for the desk, I am sure, this is not Hitlers. Ballin was a jewish furniture firm, although they were privileged because they helped Göring in 1923 as far as I remember.

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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by palaisfan » 26 Jan 2010 07:15

Geli,

Thank you much for taking time to look at the drawing to shed some more light. Its starting to come together.
The sketch you posted is very much like the plans that I have. Perhaps the book you found it in used the same plans. Room #5 (with the question mark) does not exist. Room #1 is the end.
I take it your plans also show just unlabeled rooms for the three #4 on the right hand lower side? (Antikoeper's suggestion it is where the staff lived seems likely).
No, the dining room is #4 and #5 on the left.
The # 4 part of the Dining Room has a wall between it and the bedroom (#1) I guess? Is there any walls between # 4 and # 5, or is the Dining Room all one vast long space directly adjoining the study (#6).
My plans include diagrams of furniture, and it looks like one rounded section was a sitting room and the other had a desk.
Is it the left or right rounded section (in the drawing) that contains the desk? Was I correct that the library is #7?

The ones on that link are very nice
On that site, is that the main central staircase you think, or the back one?

(Regarding the back side of the complex)
Yes, I have. I was looking at my photos the other day, trying to match up the windows.
Ah, good. From the following, it seems you already had the idea of the brochure or pamphlet. Excellent.

(You are right about the Lee Miller photos --- I wonder if those on Geoff's site are all those that were in the issue of that May 1945 LIfe magazine. I am going to see if I can go look at a full copy in the library - hopefully intact pages -- and report to the thread. I know the 1945 volumes are there.)
I took a lot of photos; I was thinking of making a brochure or booklet. But it's a lot of work. I would want to add other people's photos as well. The ones on that link are very nice and would work well with the photos that I took to give an overall sense of the apartment. And such a brochure would need Lee Miller's photos and some other photos from the time period.
I would strongly encourage such --- not because of some expectation or market demand (though I do indeed think it would sell), but because you have clearly dedicated great interest and study to this setting and Geli's story. That kind of loving gathering of odd bits of data and photographs and putting them together naturally earns an expression. Though often growing slowly over years. Add that to the actual chance to visit, and it just seems to me it kind of is `asking' you to. ;) That is how such muse ventures often work. My two cents.

- palaisfan

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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by palaisfan » 26 Jan 2010 07:28

Oberhessin,
I will have a brief look on the map. As for the desk, I am sure, this is not Hitlers. Ballin was a jewish furniture firm, although they were privileged because they helped Göring in 1923 as far as I remember
That is kind of surprising -- so that seller and that entire article is about a desk that is not connected to the real thing. Amazing that the auctioneer could be led astray so, presumably having more facts at hand. And yet...you are surely right if you know. Though only have that one black/white picture of the desk to go by (its the one often mislabled as a Berghof desk), I did think it didn't look like quite a match for the desk in the 2006 article. But the notice about delivery in `November 1929' makes me wonder if maybe it was indeed somewhere else in the apartment. The date is in the right range, as he moved in September of that year.

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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by Oberhessin » 26 Jan 2010 08:30

Please let me check the desk issue again; I was wondering about buying at Ballins, but if there is a Milch there might be a "jewish desk" as well. There is a chapter on Ballin in one of the books about "Arisierung"in Munich.
I can name you every room on this map later, there is some change.

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Geli
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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by Geli » 26 Jan 2010 10:20

Oberhessin wrote:The police is very much concerned that there will be no second "Wunsiedel".
...As for the desk, I am sure, this is not Hitlers. Ballin was a jewish furniture firm, although they were privileged because they helped Göring in 1923 as far as I remember.
What does Wunsiedel mean in English? I can't find it in my dictionary.

Maybe he bought the desk without even thinking about who owned the company. Maybe the manufacturer of a desk wasn't the most important thing on his mind.

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Geli
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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by Geli » 26 Jan 2010 10:30

Oberhessin wrote:Yes, I have been inside, in the flat and in the Luftschutzkeller.
How recently were you there? My memory is failing me about a couple of things, and I'd love to compare notes with someone else who has been there.

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Geli
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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by Geli » 26 Jan 2010 10:37

palaisfan wrote:I take it your plans also show just unlabeled rooms for the three #4 on the right hand lower side? (Antikoeper's suggestion it is where the staff lived seems likely).
Yes, when I was given my tour, they told me that's where the servants' rooms were. But your sketch shows a room that does not exist.
palaisfan wrote:The # 4 part of the Dining Room has a wall between it and the bedroom (#1) I guess? Is there any walls between # 4 and # 5, or is the Dining Room all one vast long space directly adjoining the study (#6)..
Yes, there's a wall. And you can see from the living room all the way through the dining room.
palaisfan wrote:On that site, is that the main central staircase you think, or the back one?
It's the main central staircase.

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Geli
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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by Geli » 26 Jan 2010 10:50

Palaisfan, can you post your sketch again, along with a post where you type out the list of rooms (1-16)? I can't read your writing too well because the scan is not clear.

#11 is the room that is not there. You wrote "housekeeper's apt. says Mrs. Winter." What was your source for that?

#14 is the kitchen.

#7 is part of the living room.

#4 right next to #7 is the library.

The fireplace is in the center of #6.

Can you post the photos you have of the room from the 30's?

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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by Oberhessin » 26 Jan 2010 11:00

I was there last Friday.

Wunsiedel is the place, where the Heß Family comes from and where the "Stellvertreter" is buried. Its a busy place in right-wing circles.
The back stage oder servants stage is not longer existing. The staircase has been replaced by toilets.

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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by Antikoerper » 26 Jan 2010 11:20

After all, I think we´ve got a very clear picture of the flat. This is a great work, so a big "Thank you" from the author of the thread to everyone who posted here, but please, don´t stop posting now, cause what you know is very very interesting. :)

Oberhessin,
I would really be interested in what you´ve told them to get inside there. When I stood in front of the door, this big unfriendly camera in the upper edge told me only with its existance: Go away, now! And, what Adam said, you really get looks that might kill you, when fotographing the house. Maybe I was just to shy, I think I should give it another try after taking a course in rhetoric. :wink:
"Wer aber vor der Vergangenheit die Augen verschließt, wird blind für die Gegenwart."
R. von Weizsäcker

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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by Oberhessin » 26 Jan 2010 11:25

We had a official meeting with the head of the Munich Policere there and a guided tour through the building. :wink:

I would emphasize in posting a better map; I can not read every detail of the handwritten map.

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