Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Discussions on the propaganda, architecture and culture in the Third Reich.
palaisfan
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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by palaisfan » 26 Jan 2010 16:59

Hi Geli,
Palaisfan, can you post your sketch again, along with a post where you type out the list of rooms (1-16)? I can't read your writing too well because the scan is not clear.
Done. Sorry the upload size limit intrudes on the scan, but what I have done is made a copy, and superimposed solid numbers to match those of the sketch, and will post after this post the requested list transcription of what the writing says for each. I have also posted a reverse exposure version as it highlights some details.
# 11 is the room that is not there. You wrote "housekeeper's apt. says Mrs. Winter." What was your source for that?
It was on the original, an english caption next to a german one, and not only said "housekeepers' apt, it had parantheses (Mrs. Winter). I notice that not "Winters" plural, or any mention of Georg Winter implied. Whoever notated it may have confused Winter with Reichert, who did live in the flat. Probably the german caption said only `housekeepers apt'. All my captions were from english ones on the original, except where put question marks or little remarks.
#14 is the kitchen.

#7 is part of the living room.

#4 right next to #7 is the library.

The fireplace is in the center of #6.
So it seems you mean the fireplace was in the partition almost dividing the center of #6 rather than the wall that is part of the hall. Also interesting, did the library have a door to # 6, or only to the hall?

Which rounded section has the desk on your plans? (picture posted below, but of course that was gone by the time of your visit, and the two rounded areas probably lookd the same.)

Can you post the photos you have of the room from the 30's?
There are only a few, probably familiar, but now we can put them in a position. It will be the post after the list one next.

tia,

- palaisfan
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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by palaisfan » 26 Jan 2010 17:24

Geli, all,

Here is the typed out list, what you are seeing intalics, with = giving new explanatory notes.



1. Master Bedroom

2. Bath (can't read but clear, with tub, sink, commode = [toilet]

3. Guest Room (sink a twin of bathroom) = [means same place, other side of wall, same shape. This may very well be Geli Rabaul's room, but text evidence implies greater distance?]

4. Unknown space [blank, no label or furniture on plans, the ? mark is wondering if bedroom extended width of flat]

5. Unknown form = [off-the-frame, but had furniture shown, so part of the residence] [Geli has clarified that this and # 4 is part of a long Dining Room].

5-X.? Unknown if even present = [Geli has confirmed didn't exist, # 1 is east end]

6. (Munich room) Living and Study room. = [It was I that put Munich association meaning PM Chamberlain's visit, as furniture seems to match the Sept 1938 photo of visit and triangle hall seemed wrong. The "ends before edge" was noting at the time to realize tha partition was not a wall running off the frame at bottom, but a small projection]

7. Library? (word partly cut off) = [caption could have read `library' but was half-off frame] [Geli's plan says guess wrong, just part of the Living Room-cum-Study, library turned out to be # 4].

8. Main Stairway (can matchto ground floor door seen) = [What this refers to is that I had eyeballed
the door on the street level in relation to the rounded sections, and it seems to line up well with the staircase -- there may be a dogleg just inside the door]

Black bar below # 7 = [Added for this version, to better mark ground/street level door].

9. Servants Room.

10. Cloak Room.

11. Housekeeper's apt. (Mrs Winter) = [german caption with english translation and paranthetical note).

12. Bathroom, maybe tub for housekeeper?. = [NOT labeled on plan, but clearly shows a tub and sink of same form as #2 (the likely Lee Miller tub). Mention of housekeeper is guess from # 11 being adjacent.

13. Back stair.

14. (Uknown but full of stuff) ?--mfer"?) = [Not labeled in english on the plan, german word impossible to make out at the time, but seemed to end in ---fer". A word like "dampfer" appears on other plans, so was guessing. We now know this is the kitchen -- it matches the photograph and Geli has confirmed].

15. Look like paired commodes = [ie, not labeled, but seem like two toilerts]

16. Den "S? all..?" = [English caption said Den, but from Reichskanzlei experience wanted to know which word, so tried to mark what german could]. [This is the `triangular hall', Speer mentions too, I think].

- palaisfan

palaisfan
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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by palaisfan » 26 Jan 2010 17:46

Geli,

Here are the period pictures mentioned, and how have identified so far.

Since you have plans that show furniture, can you describe the shape of table and number of chairs and such in the Dining Room? Did it have a fireplace (#5 room's furniture ran off frame on mine).

High resolution ones of these two can be found on the LIFE magazine archive on Google. The Lee Miller one in tub is familiar, so first.
SgtArthurPetersinHitlerorGelibedLIFE.jpg
PrinzRegentenplatzMay45LIFE.jpg
And here is the one with Hitler's desk in his study. (Which rounded section would this be going by the furniture plan? I would have thought the wall would show some of those windows of the roundels. Is this another room other than # 6 perhaps?) (Picture posted on this board, I think in Berghof paintings thread; definite sources are Nervin Gun, "Eva Braun" and John Toland's pictorial history.

However, I think the one on Geoff Walden's page better matches a Hitler desk in a roundel. Maybe Geli's plan can be matched to either that desk picture, or the one here, or both. (I am thinking this might be in the library).

See Geoff's page for pictures of #6?, # 14 kitchen (definite), and # 2 (Lee Miller tub, almost definite).
http://www.thirdreichruins.com/munich.htm
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Oberhessin
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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by Oberhessin » 26 Jan 2010 21:07

1 is Hitlers Bedroom. On the right side is a door to the bathroom which could be used by room 3, the room of Geli Raubal. Room 5 is not existing anymore. Livingroom and Diningroom, which where one big room - maybe with an transportable door "Schiebetür" - are now separated by a wall, the remains of the fireplace are just a fake. There is a big entrance instead of 15 and 16 - I am not sure if there has ever been a room, no remains. On the other side of the living room is the library. In the next room nowadays is a - in Germany we say "Fitnessraum".

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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by palaisfan » 30 Jan 2010 02:41

Oberhessin,
"1 is Hitlers Bedroom. On the right side is a door to the bathroom which could be used by room 3, the room of Geli Raubal. Room 5 is not existing anymore. Livingroom and Diningroom, which where one big room - maybe with an transportable door "Schiebetür" - are now separated by a wall, the remains of the fireplace are just a fake. There is a big entrance instead of 15 and 16 - I am not sure if there has ever been a room, no remains. On the other side of the living room is the library. In the next room nowadays is a - in Germany we say "Fitnessraum".
Thanks for this clarification and notice of what may or may not have changed. If room 5 is gone, does room 1 Hitlers bedroom actually extend the width of the flat, across the hall? I wasn't sure on my plan. And where is the remains of the fireplace, that are fake? (I am guessing you mean somewhere in room #6?). The exercise room sounds like it is the second # 4 past the library's #4.

Are you saying that room # 15 (which seemed to have been a bathroom of two toilets, but not tub) is now an entrance staircase?

thanks,

- palaisfan
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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by palaisfan » 30 Jan 2010 03:01

All,

I have been going through some old sources, to see what they say and how they line up with the plans.

First, this memorable passage of how he first met Adolf Hitler from Albert Speer's "Inside the Third Reich" now has new visual life:
"We stopped at an apartment house in the vicinity of the Prinzregenten Theater. Two flights up [accurate] I was admitted to anteroom containing mementos or presents of low quality. The furniture, too, testified to poor taste.[It seems likely that Speer is describing presents arrayed on a table in the triangular "Halle" # 16 described by Geli]. An adjutant came in, opened a door, said casually, "Go in". [Almost certainly Speer is being admitted from the the `Halle' , via the hallway and by door into # 6, the Living Room-Study, another possibility is into the Library, # 4 - the present Fitnessraum - beside #7, ]." There, he had his first encounter with Hitler at a table apparently cleaning a pistol. This would probably be the desk in whichever rounded area of the Study contained it.

I have found some other similar text descriptions that can now be integrated or compared to the plan which will post shortly.

Who all here has read "Hitler & Geli" by Ronald Hayman? How do you rate it? (I would be particulary interested in Geli's viewpoint since she has studied it and possibly other works). There are things in the prose description at the time of the Geli Raubal's death (which the author seems to call a murder) that don't seem accurate for the flat. He speaks of Geli being some distance from Hitler, but both the modern visitor evidence on this thread, the plans, and photographs confirm an adjoining bedroom arrangement. Something doesn't add up. Something like some of the bunker accounts, if the physical setting is botched, it can render the rest of the work a little doubtful.

In fact, along with the Munich conference, Hayman's book was another that had me wanting to see a plan of the setting of the events described and to seek info on it, ie, the flat.

Edit- to Geli: I see there was a thread discussing Raubal's death and that you came down on the side of suicide. So I would revise my query to what do you think of the book's overall veracity? Major architectural setting mistakes can be a clue that a text or witness is straying too far from primary source quoes or wasn't present.

- palaisfan
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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by palaisfan » 30 Jan 2010 06:54

Continuing with some text sources...

This is an interesting one. From "Eva and Adolf" by Glenn B. Infield. Chapter 4 (brackets are mine) :
"This wasn't difficult [spending time with Geli] since he made certain that she had personal quarters in both his Prinzregentenplatz apartment in Munich and his house on the Obersalzberg. The apartment in Munich was divided into two wings: [seems a misunderstanding that maybe the flat used to be two different apartments?] Hitler lived in one, and Geli supposedly lived in the other. Actually she stayed near Hitler's bedroom in a room luxuriously furnished with antiques from Austria, several paintings (including one Hitler had painted during World War I), an expensive radio-phonograph with a huge supply of records, bedroom furniture with painted motifs, and embroidered sheets. Hitler's bedroom, down a long corridor from Geli's, [seems blatantly wrong?] was smaller [?!], although it too was well appointed. Geli's mother slept in a room across from the anteroom to her daughter's chamber and the two shared a bathroom, while Hitler had his own bathroom adjoining his sleeping quarters. The apartment also included a reception room, a dining room and a library. Frau Annie Winter and her husband, who had formerly been valet to an army general, managed the servants, while Hitler's half-sister was in charge of the entire operation of the household "
.

It seems to me the account may be confusing elements of the Berghof with Prinzregentenplatz, going by the mention of Hitler's half-sister, but I am not sure. A precise source for this is given by Infield though, and gives pause: Frau Annie Winter interview, Munich, March 30, 1948 (Musmanno Archives, 254).

Another factoid. Geli in her 16 Jan post said that her plans of the apartment are dated `1935'. Intriguingly enough, Eva Braun's diary for 1 April 1935 mentions hoping Hitler doesn't return to Munich "before his apartment is ready" and further on at the end of the same month, on 29 April, Eva writes: "His apartment is ready but I am not allowed to visit him." Here we have, I think, a very good indicator of the general date of the Gerdy Troost remodeling --- the plans were probably drawn up in March 1935, and in typical style, the refurbishing swiftly accomplished in the following month. So the month can be now reasonably stated, so that March 1935 is probably the date of Geli's plans.

It also may mean the "Troost" phase of Prinzregentenplatz does not date from the September 1929 move-in, but I can't really say. Certainly 1935 is a period of much activity by Gerdy Troost's studio, having completed the refurbishing of the Reichskanzlerpalais in Berlin in May 1934. A similar facelift of the Munich residence the following spring would fit well. If this is true, it adds to the information we have. (Incidentally, this may in turn authenticate Eva Braun 's writings in this time frame, for forgers almost never get vague architectural references worked in, let alone accurate, and such work on the apartment in 1935 was hardly apparent till Geli mentioned the date of plans. I thought this worth noting).

- palaisfan

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Antikoerper
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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by Antikoerper » 30 Jan 2010 14:22

Here´s a source from "Des Führers bester Freund" by Anna Maria Sigmund, I´ll quote it in
german and summarize what is said.The brackets with the stars are by me. From chapter "Geli in München":
[...] Am 1. Oktober 1929 bezog er eine repräsentative, aus insgesamt neun Zimmern samt
Nebenräumen bestehende Doppelwohnung, die ganze Etage eines großbürgerlichen Zinshauses
in der Prinzregentenstraße, nahe dem Prinzregententheater. Es war das reiche Verlegerehepaar
Bruckmann, das dem Führer eine neue Bleibe gesucht, den Umzug organisiert und die Möbel bezhalt
hatte. Die Bruckmanns hafteten dann dem Vermieter gegenüber für etwaige Mietrückstände
und beglichen auch gerne die hohen Kosten der Luxuswohnung, die sich immerhin auf jährliche
4176 RM beliefen.[...]Für sein Privatleben im großen Stil leistete sich Hitler trotz der
wirtschaftlich bewegten Zeit, als die Vorboten der großen Weltwirtschaftskrise schon
Deutschland erreichten, mehrere Hilfskräfte. Hitler brachte vier dienstbare Geister in sein
treues Heim mit. Eine davon war Maria Reichert, seine frühere Vermieterin, die ihn schon
in der Thierschstraße umsorgt hatte. Als Gegenleistung für Putzarbeiten bot Hitler ihr -
und zwar gleich zusammen mit ihrem Mann, zeitweise ihrem Sohn(Toni) und ihrer Mutter(Karoline
Reichert) - Unterkunft in seinem großen Quartier. Für gröbere Arbeiten war die "Zugeherin"
Anna Kirmaier zuständig. Außerdem engagierte Hitler ein Dienerehepaar (*** Georg und Anni Winter ***)
[...]Hitlers prächtige Wohnung, sein erstes anspruchsvolles Domizil seit dem Verlassen der
elterlichen Wohnung in Linz, wirkte bürgerlich konservativ. Die riesigen, düstern und hohen
Räume gefielen ihm, der lange Jahre in beengten Verhältnissen gelebt hatte, sehr.[...]
Die Einrichtung hatte der von Hitler überaus geschätzte Architekt Paul Ludwig Troost entworfen,
dem er 1930 auch das "Braune Haus" anvertrauen sollte. Die Vereinigten Münchener Werkstätten
fertigten die schweren Art-deco-Möbel nach Maß an. Große Stehlampen mit seidenbespannten
Lampenschirmen schmückten die Räume, im düsteren Vorzimmer hingen Kupferstiche romantischer
Ruinen nach Piranesi und Palladio. In den Zimmer herrschte die von Hitler geschätzte
"Münchner Schule".[...]Geli Raubal erhielt das schönste Eckzimmer und durfte es nach eigenem
Gutdünken gestalten. Auf Kosten der Mäzene Bruckmann wählte sie wertvolle antike Bauernmöbel
aus Salzburg - bemalte Kästen, eine Wäschetruhe und eine Kommode - und kombinierte sie mit
hellgrünen Tapeten, um die Wirkung des Mobiliars zu erhöhen. Dazu gab es nach Angaben von
Zeitzeugen noch einen schönen alten Schreibtisch und ein bequemes Schlafsofa. An der Wand
hing als Geschenk des Onkels ein Aquarell, das er während des Ersten Weltkrieges in Belgien
gemalt hatte[...]
- date of move-in : 1st October 1929
- nine rooms with secondary rooms, a whole floor
- the Bruckmanns choosed the flat, organized the move-in, and payed for the furniture
- they also payed the rent: 4176 RM per year
- there were four assitants for his household: Maria Reichert(with husband, sometimes her son,
and her mother) for cleaning, Anna Kirmaier for "harder" tasks(?), and the Winter-couple as
servants
- huge and high, but dark rooms
- the furniture was designed by Paul Ludwig Troost(I thought it was his wife?) and manufactured
by the "Vereinigte Münchener Werkstätte"
- huge standard-lamps with shades covered with silk
- romantic copper engravings by Piranesi and Palladio in the entrance hall
- Geli got the most beautiful corner room and was allowed to furnish it, how she wanted:
antique rustique furniture(painted cases, a linen bin, and a commode, lightgreen wallpaper,
an old desk and the water colour Hitler had painted during World War I.

As often as I´ve read the suggestion, that their bedrooms lay close together, I´ve read the one, that says, that they were far away from each other. But this doesn´t fit in any way to the plans we have here. An austrian author who wrote a fictional book about Geli and her uncle ( I would recommend, not to read it - biggest mispurchase of my life - more pornographic than anything else), visited the flat with Lothar Machtan (you may know him for his famous believe in Hitlers homosexuality and the book about it), and he writes about the arrangement of the flat in the epilog. He says, how surprised he was, of the close way they lived together: just some footsteps lay between their bedrooms, and they shared a bathroom together. So, this is, what most of the books are telling us, and actually what the plans do. I would lay more trust in them.

- Antikoerper
"Wer aber vor der Vergangenheit die Augen verschließt, wird blind für die Gegenwart."
R. von Weizsäcker

palaisfan
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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by palaisfan » 30 Jan 2010 21:10

Antikoeper,

Thanks much for posting that, and particularly helpful was including the original German. A similar issue with Christa Schroeder's book (question how rooms were translated into english) is avoided here.

What you quote is very interesting, and some remarks.
"date of move-in : 1st October 1929"
= Not a major difference, but "Hitler & Geli" by Ronald Hayman gave the date as "Hitler taking possession" of the flat on 10 September 1929. This may be simply the difference between the first "rent due date" which would be Oct 1.
"- nine rooms with secondary rooms, a whole floor"
= this agrees with what we keep reading, but its interesting to wonder what are considered "rooms" on the plan, rather than say, alcoves or foyers.
"- the Bruckmanns choosed the flat, organized the move-in, and payed for the furniture"
= This brings to mind the very interesting desk for sale posted earlier, stating a delivery date of November 1929.
"- the furniture was designed by Paul Ludwig Troost(I thought it was his wife?) and manufactured
by the "Vereinigte Münchener Werkstätte""
= Paul Troost died on Jan 21, 1934, having as his last act successfully drawn up plans to renovate the Reickskanzlerpalais (Old Radziwill Palace) on the day after New Year's, 1934. Gerdy Troost, in conjunction with Speer and Gall, accomplished the renovation along Paul Troost's plan. My theory, only that, is the discrepancy you point out is best explained by a Gerdy Troost further renovation planned in March 1935 and carried out that April. Sigmund's book would neatly fit this, for it would imply Paul Troost had a hand in the original 1929 move-in's design. My guess is, since the later, better-known and historic scenes of the later 30's took place after 1935, Gerdy Troost's name "stuck" better to the record, for it was indeed she that did the lasting and final makeover of the flat and maybe even the furniture changed. Make sense?
"- romantic copper engravings by Piranesi and Palladio in the entrance hall"
I wonder if these are photographed, this is new.
"Geli got the most beautiful corner room and was allowed to furnish it, how she wanted:
antique rustique furniture(painted cases, a linen bin, and a commode, lightgreen wallpaper,
an old desk and the water colour Hitler had painted during World War I. "
= Doesn't that remind of the quote from Winter's 1948 interview, via Infield? Except the corner room part. (Though I guess you could call # 3 a "corner" in one sense).
"As often as I´ve read the suggestion, that their bedrooms lay close together, I´ve read the one, that says, that they were far away from each other. But this doesn´t fit in any way to the plans we have here."
I know, interesting, isn't it? Hayman's book, positing the Geli Raubal death like a crime scene, also seems to imply some distance away. Not buying it -- maybe the housekeepers said that for propriety's sake.
"An austrian author who wrote a fictional book about Geli and her uncle ( I would recommend, not to read it - biggest mispurchase of my life - more pornographic than anything else), visited the flat with Lothar Machtan (you may know him for his famous believe in Hitlers homosexuality and the book about it), and he writes about the arrangement of the flat in the epilog."
It sounds like that novel's greatest value lies in the epilogue. Is that something you could quote? (If says any more than what you paraphrased next, that is)
"He says, how surprised he was, of the close way they lived together: just some footsteps lay between their bedrooms, and they shared a bathroom together. So, this is, what most of the books are telling us, and actually what the plans do. I would lay more trust in them."
I agree with you. So far, every one who has visited the flat in modern times, Geli, Oberhessin, and now we can add the Austrian author with Machtan, avers the bedrooms are close together, and share a bathroom. (Which the Lee Miller photo matches in layout). A further indicator is apparently the American soldiers billeting there in May 1945 had the bedroom's identified, and since Hitler kept Geli Raubal's room "frozen in time" it may be possible to match the photo of some items with the text descriptions in Sigmund's book. On a related note, I might cite a supporting analogy: Hitler and Eva shared a very similar adjoining bathroom and bed arrangement after Troost refurbished the Old Reich Chancellery. Its also found at the Berghof. It is not unlikely it was a pattern preferred by Hitler. (Incidentally, does Sigmund's book discuss Chancellery visits in any detail?).

- palaisfan

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Cor
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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by Cor » 30 Jan 2010 23:40

in the picture above from Sgt. Arthur Peterson laying on what is identified as Hitler's bed in his bedroom (life), that thing were he's lying on is referred as a bed, but thats not a bed in my opinion , it looks more like a couch and so this is maybe not a bedroom.

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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by Geli » 31 Jan 2010 01:15

palaisfan wrote:Geli in her 16 Jan post said...
To avoid confusion between myself and Geli Raubal, please feel free to put my screen name in quotes. For example:

"Geli" wrote in an earlier post that Geli's room was next to the bathroom...

I wish I had time to read all of the posts that went up recently, but I'll have to put it off. Looking forward to continued discussion...! :D

Best regards,
"Geli"

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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by palaisfan » 31 Jan 2010 06:48

"Geli",
"To avoid confusion between myself and Geli Raubal, please feel free to put my screen name in quotes. For example:

"Geli" wrote in an earlier post that Geli's room was next to the bathroom...
LOL. Good point. You may have noticed I had hit upon the approach of writing out Geli Raubal's full name. Your solution is a better one. :D
I wish I had time to read all of the posts that went up recently, but I'll have to put it off. Looking forward to continued discussion...! :D
Understood. Look forward to when you can. When you do get emough moments, could you check your plan for which roundel had the desk, and the shape of dining room table? Absolutey no rush though!

best,

- palaisfan

Meanwhile, here is a somewhat unusual one. Its from "Eva and Adolf" by Glenn Infield. The caption says little, other than "Eva and Hitler in the library of his apartment." However, while it seems safe to associate with Munich, Its library seems small, more like a study. If that is really Eva, (hard to tell) its the Prinzregetenplatz residence and not earlier than 1929 and likely later.
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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by palaisfan » 31 Jan 2010 06:52

Cor,
in the picture above from Sgt. Arthur Peterson laying on what is identified as Hitler's bed in his bedroom (life), that thing were he's lying on is referred as a bed, but thats not a bed in my opinion , it looks more like a couch and so this is maybe not a bedroom.
Good observation point. You may be right, and that might even tend to further support that it is Geli's bedroom (it seems safe to say it is too small to be Hitler's), because wasn't her suicide said to have been next to a `couch' rather than a bed? Technically as a "Guest Room" it may have had only a couch. Or maybe its not either one's room. Maybe can try to match the text descriptions above to see if it fits Geli's furnishings. The WW I painting by Hitler might give it away, but I don't see it.
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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by palaisfan » 31 Jan 2010 07:03

Slight evidence that the above picture is from No. 16 is this picture of `Hitler in his library' from "Hitler's private Library" by Timothy Ryback is dated to 1926 and specifically associated with his "first apartment", i.e., Theirschstrasse No.41. The bookcase does look rather different.
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Re: Hitlers flat: Prinzregentenplatz 16

Post by Oberhessin » 31 Jan 2010 11:35

I am not sure, how alle these mentioned person - the winter couple and their son and Maria Reichert - should have lived in the flat. Apart the very small Bedrooms for Hitler and his niece, the library, the livingroom and the dining room were only the two big rooms on the right, which could fit.

The sovalled "Geli-Room" is no room in the corner. And it is to small for the obove mentioned "Bauernmöbel", or it will have consisted only of furniture.

In case of the desk, if the Bruckmanns have bought, it gets reasonable.

As for Troost, as far as I know, Hitler and Troost did not meet before August 1929. The "Braune Haus" or parts of it where Troosts first jobs for Hitler.

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