"Famous Hitler rally picture probably faked"

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Eddy Marz
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Re: "Famous Hitler rally picture probably faked"

Post by Eddy Marz » 17 Oct 2010 10:41

Examining other portraits, the Odeonplatz picture actually does seem a little... well, problematic :

Hitler in 1914 - same year as Odeonplatz picture :
hitler10.jpg
Then another in 1917 :
adolf_12.jpg
And the only one that looks like him in the Odeonplatz pic is from 1921 :
A. hitler12.jpg
:? What do you think ?
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Re: "Famous Hitler rally picture probably faked"

Post by OpanaPointer » 17 Oct 2010 12:27

The closest I've seen, IMHO, is the self-portrait he did after the war. Which is interesting in it's own right.
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Mauser K98k
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Re: "Famous Hitler rally picture probably faked"

Post by Mauser K98k » 17 Oct 2010 15:58

Eddy Marz wrote:Examining other portraits, the Odeonplatz picture actually does seem a little... well, problematic...What do you think ?
You make a good point Eddy.

I'm starting to think it very well could be a case of mistaken identity. The narrow "nose-width" mustache, which Hitler went on to make infamous later, appearing in the 1914 photo is just a bit too convenient and plays well into the Nazi propaganda of the time.

Also, the same man circled in the film clip does not look so much like AH to me.

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Re: "Famous Hitler rally picture probably faked"

Post by OpanaPointer » 17 Oct 2010 16:39

Some friends at NARA are reading this. We'll see if they come up with anything.
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Adam Carr
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Re: "Famous Hitler rally picture probably faked"

Post by Adam Carr » 18 Oct 2010 03:26

Does the original print or negative or plate of Hoffman's photo still exist? If so, it would not be hard with today's techniques to determine whether the photo has been doctored.

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Eddy Marz
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Re: "Famous Hitler rally picture probably faked"

Post by Eddy Marz » 18 Oct 2010 06:43

No, the original glass-plate negative (which was Hoffmann's property) has never been found. Many other pics of the Odeonplatz rally were found in Hoffmann's Munich archives - none of them with Hitler on them. Hoffmann said that he found him merely by chance while scanning the pic after Hitler had told him that he was there that day.

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Re: "Famous Hitler rally picture probably faked"

Post by robertmountfor » 18 Oct 2010 08:47

I thought conspiracy theories were the preserve of deluded fantasists.

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Eddy Marz
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Re: "Famous Hitler rally picture probably faked"

Post by Eddy Marz » 18 Oct 2010 09:07

robertmountfor wrote:I thought conspiracy theories were the preserve of deluded fantasists.
Hi robertmountfor;
Frankly, I don't really see anything 'conspiratorial' here. A glass-plate negative from 1914 Germany could very easily have disappeared (broken, ignored, damaged and thrown away etc.); besides that's no the crux of the matter. The point is that the 'Hitler' on the Odeonplatz picture bears little resemblance with the 1914 Hitler, and much more with the 1920 Hitler who, by then, had adopted the 'look' which he was to keep. And the picture was 1st published in 1932... Now that doesn't prove anything and the man on the Odeonplatz may well be Adolf Hitler; but it could also be a dabbled-with propaganda photo - not an unusual practice. I think the doubt is reasonable.

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Re: "Famous Hitler rally picture probably faked"

Post by OpanaPointer » 18 Oct 2010 12:55

robertmountfor wrote:I thought conspiracy theories were the preserve of deluded fantasists.
We know the German's conspired with Russia to attack Poland. We know the Japanese conspired to attack Malaya, NEI and the PI. We know FDR and WSC conspired to defeat Germany first.

The difference between a conspiracy and a conspiracy theory is that the latter is usually a fantasy of a fevered mind.

As for the originals, we just have to find copies of that picture from non-German archives that can be dated to very near the actual date. A copy printed in the US in 1915, for example, could be compared to the one the Germans put out to see if they match or not. It's really that simple.
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Grisu
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Re: "Famous Hitler rally picture probably faked"

Post by Grisu » 18 Oct 2010 18:19

Eddy Marz wrote: :? What do you think ?
Thanks for these portraits, Eddy. In my view, they underline the problematic nature of the Odeonplatz picture. As for my part, the film doesn't "nail it", neither. There is a shot of a man, yes, with a peculiar hairstyle and moustache, yes, but there are some other things that may be questionable (the man standing in front of him / the hat, clothing, the angle, etc.).

Gerd Krumeich has published a wide range of scholarly literature on both, WW I and national socialism. It would be interesting to read his original paper on the picture. I doubt a scholar of his format would venture to make a claim like the one we discuss here without having gathered some good evidence.

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Re: "Famous Hitler rally picture probably faked"

Post by robertmountfor » 18 Oct 2010 19:41

Its my belief that extraordinary people are just as capable to be pictured in an ordinary picture as anyone else. it would just not be in character for a man like him to construct a lie around a picture. also there are just too many problems attached to such a venture. what if the real person came forward with his own pictures? surely others around him also recognised themselves? it is just the exact occasion that AH would make sure he attended! i think for once there is simply no doubt who that man in the picture is.

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Grisu
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Re: "Famous Hitler rally picture probably faked"

Post by Grisu » 18 Oct 2010 20:58

robertmountfor wrote:Its my belief that extraordinary people are just as capable to be pictured in an ordinary picture as anyone else. it would just not be in character for a man like him to construct a lie around a picture. also there are just too many problems attached to such a venture. what if the real person came forward with his own pictures? surely others around him also recognised themselves? it is just the exact occasion that AH would make sure he attended! i think for once there is simply no doubt who that man in the picture is.
It's entirely at your liberty to hold fast to your beliefs and nobody should challenge you for that. But for those who are not satisfied with beliefs, but rather look for proofs, all the questions raised in this thread so far remain unanswered. So you, in turn, shouldn't challenge the skeptics looking for answers.

And why shouldn't Hitler lie about a picture? It wouldn't have been the only occasion he twisted the truth, would it? And would it really have been a feasible scenario in NS Germany for someone to come forward and say "Hang on, guys, that's not our Fuhrer, that's me, really.", or for a bystander to say "I was there for sure, but, seriously, I don't remember that guy there."? Well, I'm skeptical.

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Adam Carr
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Re: "Famous Hitler rally picture probably faked"

Post by Adam Carr » 19 Oct 2010 10:02

It's not Hitler who is being accused of lying, it's Hoffman. If Hoffman faked the photo, he need not have told Hitler that he had done so. It could have been a trick engineered by Hoffman alone, or by Hoffman and and Goebbels, without Hitler's knowledge.

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Re: "Famous Hitler rally picture probably faked"

Post by Larso » 19 Oct 2010 10:09

I doubt anyone would have dared to come forward to claim it was actually them.

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Keir
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Re: "Famous Hitler rally picture probably faked"

Post by Keir » 19 Oct 2010 13:31

There is no evidence that that footage is actually from 1914. Some claim to see a 1963 corvette driving in the background! Nor does the man purported to be Hitler convincing.
Apparently a different version of the picture was found in the Hoffmann photo archive in Bavaria in which "Hitler’s characteristic lock of hair over the forehead looks clearly different – suggesting the photo had been retouched. The glass plate negative to the picture has never been found."
Anyone found this version?

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