"Famous Hitler rally picture probably faked"

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OpanaPointer
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Re: "Famous Hitler rally picture probably faked"

Post by OpanaPointer » 08 Nov 2010 15:16

Adam Carr wrote:Robert, the issue is not whether Hitler was there. As you say, it's highly likely that he was there. The issue is whether Hoffman's photo shows him there.

You do make a good point about the supposed motive for the Nazis fabricating the photo - to "prove Hitler's patriotism." How did a photo of him cheering the outbreak of the war prove his patriotism more than his war service did? His application to join the Bavarian Army on the outbreak of war, his meritorious service, his Iron Cross and his gassing in 1918 were all on the public record to attest to his German patriotism. This doesn't seem like much of a motive for fabricating the photo to me.
Hoffman was appointed an official photographer of AH, IIRC. Motivation = I got a job.
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Adam Carr
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Re: "Famous Hitler rally picture probably faked"

Post by Adam Carr » 09 Nov 2010 00:18

He would have got that job regardless, he was one of Hitler's favourites already. He introduced Hitler to Eva Braun, remember. Anyway, this is all idle speculation.

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Re: "Famous Hitler rally picture probably faked"

Post by OpanaPointer » 09 Nov 2010 00:51

Adam Carr wrote:Anyway, this is all idle speculation.
Ah, then nobody will be stressing over it any more. Every good!
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Re: "Famous Hitler rally picture probably faked"

Post by ChristopherPerrien » 10 Nov 2010 17:31

Thank you Grishnu for your excellent analysis/post. You forgot only to comment on any possible motivations by supporters of this current exibit or Gerd Krumeich for why they might want to prove/infer this picture is a fake.Surely that should be as well mentioned by you, as is to why Hoffman might have faked it in the first place . To me, it all looks really "murky" at this time. German nationalistic propoganda had an agenda then, it stands to reason that things have not changed. Pro-Hitler then, Anti-hitler today. It looks no different to me. Shades of truth and and deception.

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Re: "Famous Hitler rally picture probably faked"

Post by murx » 21 Dec 2010 00:50

OpanaPointer wrote:
[url=http://www.ww2f.com/wwii-today/46989-famous-hitler-rally-picture-probably-faked.html wrote:http://www.ww2f.com/wwii-today/46989-fa ... faked.html[/url]]
But it was not published until March 12, 1932 (in the Illustrierte Beobachter, the Nazi party newspaper) after Hitler's patriotism was questioned because he escaped from Vienna to Munich to avoid military service in Austria-Hungary. (thelocal.de)

The OSS files say that Hitler was refused by the Austrian Army on medical reasons and succeeded then in joining the German Reichswehr.

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Re: "Famous Hitler rally picture probably faked"

Post by robertmountfor » 21 Dec 2010 01:03

the quite ridiculous OSS files were a mixture of fantasy and hearsay. Cobbled together by a theorist who had access to 'a servant at Obersalzberg' who, of course knew the workings of the Fuehrers mind! Its one great boast was that AH would eventually be defeated and commit suicide. What was later to be called 'criminal profiling'.

AH despised the hapsburgs and all they stood for, he would never have fought to defend foriegn blood, and anti German lot, and indeed fled to escape to be forced to do exactly that.

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Adam Carr
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Re: "Famous Hitler rally picture probably faked"

Post by Adam Carr » 21 Dec 2010 05:12

Hitler was indeed refused by the Austrian Army. In February 1914, to avoid deportation to Austria as a draft dodger, he went from Munich to Salzburg to have the physical, but was rejected, probably as a result of his malnourishment and lack of exercise in the preceding decade, since there was nothing basically wrong with his health. In wartime, of course, there were different standards, and he was accepted into the Bavarian Army in August with no problems.

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Re: "Famous Hitler rally picture probably faked"

Post by palaisfan » 21 Dec 2010 05:59

This is an intriguing puzzle. When it was first announced, I doubted it had any substance. There is alot of revisionists (in the bad sense = re-inventing history, rather than correcting/updating it) activity for this period depending on the question. (I very much like OpanaPointer's definition: Depends on the version of "revisionism" you use. It's okay to get the facts straight. It's not okay to change the facts to suit a particular paradigm. ) To "revise", to "update" something used to be the most logical and indeed sought-for change in any historical work.

When a long accepted picture is announced as possibly faked, it can't help but sound sensationalistic. I am very interested and familiar with the problems of historiography, and how a certain conception tends to find its way down to us. With that in mind, it does become clear that such claims sometimes are true, and a closer look is warranted.

For this picture, the decisive thing that has me swinging to the possiblity it is an alter of some kind, is the claim that it was not published in this form before the 1930's. You see, I could have sworn while in the college library stacks one time, looking at old, acquired at that time, works of the 1920's about World War I, that I saw that picture. For this reason, I have always assumed it was genuine. Not least, it also lacked Hoffman's famous circle around Hitler, just like a pre-Nazi publication of an otherwise historic but standard WW I scene would. Ironically, I noticed that if you knew where to look, he still was there.

So my question at this stage is just how certain is it that the photo was not printed anywhere before. At this point, I am having to conclude that my memory was simply wrong --- what I saw may have been a Weimar era work, but of later date, but still after the rise of the NSDAP. (At some point, I will go back to those stacks and re-examine, of course).

I am curious also, how this will end up panning out. Proving, or disproving, that the photo does not exist earlier in 1920's will be key. As others pointed out, It is not necessary to find the original glass negative, and unreasonable to expect to.

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Re: "Famous Hitler rally picture probably faked"

Post by Grisu » 27 Dec 2010 20:24

robertmountfor wrote:AH despised the hapsburgs and all they stood for, he would never have fought to defend foriegn blood, and anti German lot, and indeed fled to escape to be forced to do exactly that.
Mhm, that's pretty much how Hitler himself describes the situation in Mein Kampf, isn't it?


The file from his 1914 Salzburg medical examination reads:
"Zum Waffen- und Hilfsdienst untauglich, zu schwach. Waffenunfähig."
transl.: Unsuited for military service and support, too weak. Inapt for armed service.
Source: Paul Bruppacher, Adolf Hitler und die Geschichte der NSDAP, vol. 1., Norderstedt 2009 (2nd ed.), p. 29.


He must have eaten quite well between February and August, because one has to admit that he looked slightly better on Odeonsplatz half a year later. If he was there. :P

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Re: "Famous Hitler rally picture probably faked"

Post by robertmountfor » 28 Dec 2010 02:03

'Too weak, inept for armed service.....' Iron Cross Ist and 2nd Class, War Merit Cross, Verwunden orden..... says it all really.

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Grisu
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Re: "Famous Hitler rally picture probably faked"

Post by Grisu » 28 Dec 2010 14:00

robertmountfor wrote:'Too weak, inept for armed service.....' Iron Cross Ist and 2nd Class, War Merit Cross, Verwunden orden..... says it all really.
And the Militärverdienstkreuz 3rd Class was even awarded with Swords. Albeit it's not entirely clear what "it all really says", as you put it.

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Re: "Famous Hitler rally picture probably faked"

Post by robertmountfor » 28 Dec 2010 17:01

that clearly, the board was wrong and hitler was a most able and recognised soldier.

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Re: "Famous Hitler rally picture probably faked"

Post by Johnnyrocket » 02 Jan 2011 17:27

I think the image is an original image but probably has been retouched throughout the various processes that the propaganda machine used it for at the time.

Johnny R. :roll:

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Re: "Famous Hitler rally picture probably faked"

Post by robertmountfor » 02 Jan 2011 23:46

Johnnyrocket wrote:I think the image is an original image but probably has been retouched throughout the various processes that the propaganda machine used it for at the time.

Johnny R. :roll:

Quite so Johnny, I think that is correct, just as you say re-touched / highlighted.

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Grisu
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Re: "Famous Hitler rally picture probably faked"

Post by Grisu » 04 Jan 2011 11:55

robertmountfor wrote:
Johnnyrocket wrote:I think the image is an original image but probably has been retouched throughout the various processes that the propaganda machine used it for at the time.

Johnny R. :roll:

Quite so Johnny, I think that is correct, just as you say re-touched / highlighted.
Haven't we been over this before? You may either think and believe something. Or you may ask for proof in order to know something.

PS: I think the two of you may be right. But I don't know whether you are.

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