"Famous Hitler rally picture probably faked"

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Ernie Primeau
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Re: "Famous Hitler rally picture probably faked"

Post by Ernie Primeau » 02 Apr 2011 14:22

OpanaPointer wrote:
[url=http://www.ww2f.com/wwii-today/46989-famous-hitler-rally-picture-probably-faked.html wrote:Spartanroller[/url]]

Famous Hitler rally picture probably faked - The Local

The famous 1914 photo showing Hitler in the middle of the crowd at a WW1 rally was most likely faked. Historian Gerd Krumeich has studied the picture and its history and concluded that Hitler was superimposed into the picture to promote the image of the Nazi leader as a patriot and a man of the people. The photo was taken by Heinrich Hoffmann at a rally in support of war in Munich's Odeonplatz in 1914. But it was not published until March 12, 1932 (in the Illustrierte Beobachter, the Nazi party newspaper) after Hitler's patriotism was questioned because he escaped from Vienna to Munich to avoid military service in Austria-Hungary. (thelocal.de)

It will be interesting to see if this pans out.
I don't think it's fake. Film was found of this event, and it shows Hoffman taking photos and Hitler in the crowd.

Image

Image

Starts at 4.53:



Case closed! :P

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Re: "Famous Hitler rally picture probably faked"

Post by OpanaPointer » 02 Apr 2011 22:21

Left and right don't match.

Image
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Ernie Primeau
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Re: "Famous Hitler rally picture probably faked"

Post by Ernie Primeau » 02 Apr 2011 23:47

OpanaPointer wrote:Left and right don't match.

Image
What do you mean they "don't match"? :?

One's a film and the other is a photo taken at a different time. They aren't supposed to "match".

Did you even watch the video? :roll:

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Re: "Famous Hitler rally picture probably faked"

Post by OpanaPointer » 03 Apr 2011 03:59

No.
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Grisu
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Re: "Famous Hitler rally picture probably faked"

Post by Grisu » 03 Apr 2011 10:35

Wow, both men have hair. And a beard! ;)

Firstly, this footage is well known (and has been thoroughly examined, with differing interpretations of the outcome), secondly I find it interesting to check the people standing around the figure in the footage, and compare it to the people in the picture. Everyone is welcome to draw their own conclusions.

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Re: "Famous Hitler rally picture probably faked"

Post by Ernie Primeau » 03 Apr 2011 12:04

Grisu wrote:Wow, both men have hair. And a beard! ;)
Huh? They don't have beards at all! 8O

Do you need glasses? :P
I find it interesting to check the people standing around the figure in the footage, and compare it to the people in the picture.
That is a flawed way of looking at it. People in crowds move around. We don't know the time difference between when the film was taken and when the photo was taken. It could have been a hour or more.

Therefore, the fact that the people around Hitler are different in the film is completely meaningless.

What is more significant is that the hairstyles are exactly the same. The clothes are the same and both have moustaches.

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Grisu
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Re: "Famous Hitler rally picture probably faked"

Post by Grisu » 03 Apr 2011 12:59

Ernie, I believe I am somewhat aware of the history behind the footage and the picture, of the examination of footage and picture, of the different looks of Adolf Hitler at different times, and of several different interpretations of several different approaches in the whole matter. And I certainly have my view on that.

Still, I wouldn't dare to deem someone's approach or someone's interpretations "flawed" or "wrong" or "meaningless", and I wouldn't want to "close the case", just because views on the issue differ from mine.

And sorry for mixing up "beard" and "moustache". 8-) (<- goatee?)

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Re: "Famous Hitler rally picture probably faked"

Post by Ernie Primeau » 05 Apr 2011 19:50

Grisu wrote:Ernie, I believe I am somewhat aware of the history behind the footage and the picture, of the examination of footage and picture, of the different looks of Adolf Hitler at different times, and of several different interpretations of several different approaches in the whole matter. And I certainly have my view on that.
The photos you refer to in that link of the "different looks" do not rebut the Odeonplatz 'hoax' claim. Let us compare the two moustaches and see what real difference there is:

Image

Now, we need to take account of the fact that the photos aren't scaled exactly and the fact that the faces are not at the same angles. Also, people can trim their moustaches in slightly different ways during the same time period. This in mind, I can see no major difference in the moustaches.

It was alleged earlier in the thread that the Odeonplatz photo shows Hitler with a "pencil moustache":
Mauser K98k wrote: The narrow "nose-width" mustache, which Hitler went on to make infamous later, appearing in the 1914 photo is just a bit too convenient and plays well into the Nazi propaganda of the time.
This is wrong. The 1914 photo does not show a pencil moustache.
Still, I wouldn't dare to deem someone's approach or someone's interpretations "flawed" or "wrong" or "meaningless"
Your quote I refered to was this:
Grisu wrote:I find it interesting to check the people standing around the figure in the footage, and compare it to the people in the picture.
It is an irrefutable FACT that people can move around in a crowd and can therefore be in different places at different times - thereby standing alongside completely different people. Your comment above clearly infers that because the people around 'Hitler' in the 1914 photo are not the same as the film is evidence of a hoax.

That "interpretation" is indeed flawed and the fact that different people are around 'Hitler' is meaningless - for the reason I have already specified.

If you wish to rebut this point, then you will need to provide evidence to show that the person in the Odeonplatz photo did NOT move around the crowd. If you could (which I highly doubt) then your inference would have some substance and would provide a sound foundation for bringing this point up as a cause for doubt.

However, if you cannot do so, my claim can be seen to be a valid and fair appraisal of your "interpretation".
and I wouldn't want to "close the case", just because views on the issue differ from mine.
Er, that was clearly a joke - hence the smiley:
Ernie Primeau wrote: Case closed! :P
I would therefore be grateful if you wouldn't twist the meanings of my words.

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Re: "Famous Hitler rally picture probably faked"

Post by Ali M J » 16 Apr 2011 07:49

Ernie Primeau wrote:
OpanaPointer wrote:
[url=http://www.ww2f.com/wwii-today/46989-famous-hitler-rally-picture-probably-faked.html wrote:Spartanroller[/url]]

Famous Hitler rally picture probably faked - The Local

The famous 1914 photo showing Hitler in the middle of the crowd at a WW1 rally was most likely faked. Historian Gerd Krumeich has studied the picture and its history and concluded that Hitler was superimposed into the picture to promote the image of the Nazi leader as a patriot and a man of the people. The photo was taken by Heinrich Hoffmann at a rally in support of war in Munich's Odeonplatz in 1914. But it was not published until March 12, 1932 (in the Illustrierte Beobachter, the Nazi party newspaper) after Hitler's patriotism was questioned because he escaped from Vienna to Munich to avoid military service in Austria-Hungary. (thelocal.de)

It will be interesting to see if this pans out.
I don't think it's fake. Film was found of this event, and it shows Hoffman taking photos and Hitler in the crowd.

Image

Image

Starts at 4.53:



Case closed! :P
The last video proves that Hitler speaks english!

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Grisu
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Re: "Famous Hitler rally picture probably faked"

Post by Grisu » 16 Apr 2011 09:09

Ernie Primeau wrote: It is an irrefutable FACT that people can move around in a crowd and can therefore be in different places at different times - thereby standing alongside completely different people. Your comment above clearly infers that because the people around 'Hitler' in the 1914 photo are not the same as the film is evidence of a hoax.

That "interpretation" is indeed flawed and the fact that different people are around 'Hitler' is meaningless - for the reason I have already specified.

If you wish to rebut this point, then you will need to provide evidence to show that the person in the Odeonplatz photo did NOT move around the crowd. If you could (which I highly doubt) then your inference would have some substance and would provide a sound foundation for bringing this point up as a cause for doubt.

However, if you cannot do so, my claim can be seen to be a valid and fair appraisal of your "interpretation".
Oh wow, you really made the scales fall from my eyes. Now I clearly see that there is no doubt that people do move around in nationalist rallies, which proves - beyond doubt - that the picture is not faked. This logic is so evident that I am ashamed not to have seen this earlier, even more so as I seem to have suggested that different people around "Hitler" nail the fact that the whole thing is a fake. Lo and behold, let's forget all the other pro and con arguments and close the case, hurray!

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Re: "Famous Hitler rally picture probably faked"

Post by Ernie Primeau » 16 Apr 2011 11:54

Grisu wrote:
Ernie Primeau wrote: It is an irrefutable FACT that people can move around in a crowd and can therefore be in different places at different times - thereby standing alongside completely different people. Your comment above clearly infers that because the people around 'Hitler' in the 1914 photo are not the same as the film is evidence of a hoax.

That "interpretation" is indeed flawed and the fact that different people are around 'Hitler' is meaningless - for the reason I have already specified.

If you wish to rebut this point, then you will need to provide evidence to show that the person in the Odeonplatz photo did NOT move around the crowd. If you could (which I highly doubt) then your inference would have some substance and would provide a sound foundation for bringing this point up as a cause for doubt.

However, if you cannot do so, my claim can be seen to be a valid and fair appraisal of your "interpretation".
Oh wow, you really made the scales fall from my eyes. Now I clearly see that there is no doubt that people do move around in nationalist rallies, which proves - beyond doubt - that the picture is not faked.
While ignoring your misplaced sarcasm - YOU were the one who first brought up the fact that there were different people around Hitler and used it as a reason to doubt that it wasn't Hitler:
Grisu wrote: I find it interesting to check the people standing around the figure in the footage, and compare it to the people in the picture. Everyone is welcome to draw their own conclusions.
By pointing out that people do move around in crowds, I merely showed the gaping flaw in your point.

I never claimed this proved it was Hitler.

For you to then come back and make a sarcastic post that completely misrepresents what I was saying (and not for the first time) just shows that you don't want to debate in an intelligent and fair manner.
This logic is so evident that I am ashamed not to have seen this earlier, even more so as I seem to have suggested that different people around "Hitler" nail the fact that the whole thing is a fake.
You never suggested that you 'nailed' anything - and neither did I infer you did.
Lo and behold, let's forget all the other pro and con arguments and close the case, hurray!
*SHAKES HEAD* :?

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Re: "Famous Hitler rally picture probably faked"

Post by Mauser K98k » 16 Apr 2011 17:43

Ernie Primeau wrote: It was alleged earlier in the thread that the Odeonplatz photo shows Hitler with a "pencil moustache":
Mauser K98k wrote: The narrow "nose-width" mustache, which Hitler went on to make infamous later, appearing in the 1914 photo is just a bit too convenient and plays well into the Nazi propaganda of the time.
This is wrong. The 1914 photo does not show a pencil moustache.
Just to clarify, what I meant by "nose-width" mustache is properly known as a "toothbrush" mustache.
A "pencil" mustache is something entirely different.

As a minor point of interest, the toothbrush mustache was first popularized in late 19th Century America and introduced at that time to the Germans by visiting Americans. Our small gift to Nazi symbolism. :)

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Re: "Famous Hitler rally picture probably faked"

Post by DØTKØM » 16 Apr 2011 19:36

Some interesting opinions voiced in this thread. Had to have a chuckle at how heated some of the exchanges had become. Really, in the end, even if the photo was faked it wouldn't really be a big surprise.

The Soviets were fiddling with photographs left, right, and centre. Poor old Trotsky got the boot from many a photograph when Stalin started to see him as an 'enemy of the people'. Photographs are obviously a key component of propaganda and it could only benefit Hitler to have such a photo faked so it wouldn't be any great surprise if it turned out to be a fake.

Not only would it not be a surprise but it also wouldn't really have much significance. He was either in the crowd or wasn't. Hardly history changing. It's interesting, but not important.

Thanks to the OP for sharing this.

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Grisu
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Re: "Famous Hitler rally picture probably faked"

Post by Grisu » 19 Apr 2011 13:44

Ernie Primeau wrote: *SHAKES HEAD* :?
I cannot tell whether you get all fired up because of the issue in general, or because of my style of writing in particular. If the former is the case, well, I guess it's just differing arguments and views, as usual. If the latter is the case, well...

*shakes hands*

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Re: "Famous Hitler rally picture probably faked"

Post by Ernie Primeau » 07 Apr 2019 01:35

J. Duncan wrote:
16 Oct 2010 11:10
Slightly better film footage can be viewed in this youtube clip from the documentary "The Fatal Attraction of Adolf Hitler".
Look for the scene at 4:36 of the clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OPvV4WPwlyg
This is probably the best version I've seen.

Image

https://youtu.be/B-m9A8mY-U0?t=71

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