Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

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Sid Guttridge
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 01 Aug 2018 10:40

Hi ljadw,

Interesting stuff, but you haven't actually answered my question:

What do you mean by "artificially high" and "normal".

Is there a recommended level for female employment?


"Artificial" implies that somebody was contriving that the situation be so. Who was this?

It also strikes me that 1934, in the midst of the Great Depression everywhere, does not provide a very "normal" baseline for anything.

Cheers,

A still inquisitive Sid.

ljadw
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by ljadw » 01 Aug 2018 17:33

It was ''artificial high '' ( I used brackets ) because when the economic situation became better,the % of women in the working force decreased,as unemployed men would occupy the new jobs and the situation would again become ''normal ''(brackets again ).
A fictive example ; in 1927 (before the crisis ):the workforce was 75% men and 25% women;due to the depression ,it was in 1933 55% men and 45% women,when in 1937 the situation became better, it was in 1937 66% men and 34 % women and when the crisis was over, it would be 75% against 25 % again .
During WWI the women rate also increased,temporarily, and when the war was over,''normalcy '' returned .
The example is fictive as the progress of women would not be nullified, not totally .

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 02 Aug 2018 17:38

Hi ljadw,

I see what you are trying to say, I think.

However, who is to say what is "artificial" or "normal"? Women's presence in the waged labour force was on an upward trajectory almost everywhere throughout the last century with, as you say, tremporary artificial peaks during the world wars. It is at an all time high at the moment, but is this to be regarded as abnormal or artificial? I would suggest that normalcy evolves and is a moving target.

Cheers,

Sid.

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Lamarck
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by Lamarck » 02 Aug 2018 21:50

Sid Guttridge wrote:
28 Jul 2018 08:47
However, that said, it was not actually true that "German citizens were doing much better than they were during the Weimar Republic". In fact, consumption was often much lower in the late 1930s than it had been in the late 1920s. (A little more on that later, as I don't have the reference on me now). What Hitler was holding out to Germans seems to have been "Jam tomorrow" - the hope of a better future, not the reality of a better present.

Cheers,

Sid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8onbm_8bcgQ

24:00

The vast majority of those considered to be Germans (since Jews were not considered Germans) were doing much better than they were during the Weimar Republic.

ljadw
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by ljadw » 03 Aug 2018 12:25

Sid Guttridge wrote:
02 Aug 2018 17:38
Hi ljadw,

I see what you are trying to say, I think.

However, who is to say what is "artificial" or "normal"? Women's presence in the waged labour force was on an upward trajectory almost everywhere throughout the last century with, as you say, tremporary artificial peaks during the world wars. It is at an all time high at the moment, but is this to be regarded as abnormal or artificial? I would suggest that normalcy evolves and is a moving target.

Cheers,

Sid.
The 1934 situation was temporarily, thus artificial ,as during the world wars .The situation in 1937/1938 was considered as normal by the contemporaries,the 1933/1934 situation was considered by the same contemporaries as abnormal , not only by bias but because it was inevitable 85 years ago (1933 is as far from today as it was from 1848 )that the % of women in the work force would be lower than the % of men,because most women had a double job : their first job was to care about the men, children and housekeeping, jobs that were done without the modern remedies as hoover, electricity, bath, washing machine ,etc,

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Lamarck
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by Lamarck » 15 Aug 2018 19:16

Anyway, getting back to the main topic.

I think one of the fundamental reasons why Hitler believed in German nationalism and identified as a German is because that is how the vast majority of people in Austria thought around the time when he was born and grew up. After Austria was excluded from Germany in 1866, many German Austrians were shocked and still identified strongly as Germans, rejecting any notion of a separate Austrian identity.

The Social Democratic leader Otto Bauer described it as "the conflict between our Austrian and German character".

The teachers at the schools Hitler went to all expressed German nationalist ideas. Nevertheless, Hitler seems to have taken German nationalist a lot more serious than his schoolmates.

His friend Josef Keplinger once recalled that Hitler told him, "You are not a Germane [old German]" and elaborated by saying, "You have dark hair and dark eyes." Hitler noted his brown hair and blue eyes.

Hitler identified the part of Austria where he was born as "Bavarian by blood" in Mein Kampf.

Two pan-Germans in Austria that were to hugely influence Hitler were Georg von Schönerer and Karl Lueger. Both hoped for the collapse of the Austrian-Empire and for "German Austria" to be annexed to Germany. Many Reich Germans also hoped for the German lands that were not annexed to Germany during the unification to eventually be unified.

WWI also enforced Hitler's strong German nationalist ideas. After WWI there is a story of a Professor Baumann, who proposed that Bavaria should break away from Prussia and found a new South German nation with Austria. Hitler did not agree and began vehemently attacking the man's arguments. According to Hitler, the "professor" left the hall acknowledging unequivocal defeat.

The judge during the Beer Hall Putsch trial stated that he was not going to deport Hitler back to Austria because:

"The court explained why it rejected the deportation of Hitler under the terms of the Protection of the Republic Act: "Hitler is a German-Austrian. He considered himself to be a German. In the opinion of the court, the meaning and the terms of section 9, para II of the Law for the Protection of the Republic cannot apply to a man who thinks and feels as German as Hitler, who voluntarily served for four and a half years in the German army at war, who attained high military honours through outstanding bravery in the face of the enemy, was wounded, suffered other damage to his health, and was released from the military into the control of the district Command Munich I."

Similarly, Hitler did not care about the loss of his Austrian citizenship.

He publicly declared:

"The loss of my Austrian citizenship is not painful to me, as I never felt as an Austrian citizen but always as a German only . . . . It was this mentality that made me draw the ultimate conclusion and do military service in the German Army."

Although it may appear strange to people that are unaware of the histories of Austria and Germany, in the early 20th century it was not strange, but in fact perfectly normal for an Austrian to be the leader of Germany.

I think Alan Bullock in his book Hitler and Stalin: Parallel Lives (2003), on p.2 wrote a satisfactory reason why Hitler was a pan-German:

"Hitler, of course, was a German, but he was born a subject of the Habsburg Empire, where Germans had played the leading for centuries. However, with Bismarck's creation in the 1860s of a German Empire based on Prussia, from which the Austrian Germans were excluded, the latter found themselves forced to defend their historic claim to rule against the growing demands for equality of the Czechs and the other "subject peoples"."

With regards to the Anschluss, it is perfectly reasonable to assume that many Austrians were appealed to it because Hitler was an Austrian by birth who had restored Germany economically (how the Nazis portrayed the economy in Germany is what I mean) and the idea of unifying Austria which was not doing too well in the late 1930s and would obviously benefit from the annexation by a native Austrian clearly had some effect on the support for the Anschluss.
Last edited by Lamarck on 16 Aug 2018 00:16, edited 3 times in total.

ljadw
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by ljadw » 15 Aug 2018 20:18

:thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Sid Guttridge
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by Sid Guttridge » 17 Aug 2018 07:17

Hi Lamarck,

Possibly the best on-topic post of the entire thread!

An appreciative Sid.

ManfredV
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Re: Why didn't Hitler advocate Austrian nationalist ideas?

Post by ManfredV » 17 Aug 2018 14:44

Yes, it is a very good explanation!

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